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Thread: Fun for All or Fun for one
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2011-03-17, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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- Orem Utah
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Fun for All or Fun for one
I am DMing a game with 3 people I am friends with all of them but one of them is making the game a chore rather than something fun. When I DM I always ban evil characters because A) I don't want to run a evil game B) I place my players in situations where they can be the heroes not villains C) it creates party drama. However this player has made me think about banning neutral or at least make them write a 3 paragraph essay about why your character would want to do these things(save people, stop evil doers ect)
Anyway a list of things he does that annoy me
1) Makes late night stealing trips
This annoys me because
A) it leaves the other players with nothing to do
B) I find it very boring to DM
C) It takes so loooooong
2) Has way to high Diplomacy
This is not something he does but feels like no matter what he asks the NPCs are forced to obey unless I ignore his roll which seems unfair
3)Refuses to do anything for free
4)Attacks NPCs for no reason
5)Belittles other players
6)Steals form other players
7)Asks for more xp for silly things
8)Refuses to allow other players to talk to npcs (sometimes)
9)Makes himself the star even though his character seems to have no interest in the plot or story progression at all
Even though he does all these things I don't want to just kick him out or anything but it has gotten to point where I am not having fun anymore. I want my players to be the heroes not guys who did for the money. Any advice or help would be most welcome.Actors we are people pretending to be people
Thanks to Kwarkpudding for the amazing Aran Avatar
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2011-03-17, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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- New York
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Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
I assume that he's a Rogue, from that list of peeves.
If you've already talked to him about the problem (this is always the first way to go), perhaps you can show him exactly what he's doing.
He has a poor Will save, an irate wizard could easily Charm Person, Suggestion, or Dominate him while he's out stealing (AKA alone with no witnesses). It takes a DC 20 Sense motive check to even tell if he's under someone else's mental control, so the party won't be able to just pay to have him fixed. this can be used as a medium to show him how it feels to have no power over your character's decisions.
Another option is Mark of Justince, Belkar-style.
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2011-03-17, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
Regarding diplomacy; the system in the core books is pretty borked. There's one fix, either in the Gaming section on the left of the screen or in one of the stickied threads in the Homebrew section. The one for Mr. Burlew's gaming articles. That might help that issue.
Number 8 is an issue. If it's in game, the other players and people should treat him like the jerk his character's acting like. If it's OOC, then you should take him aside and explain that he doesn't get to play other peoples' characters.He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2011-03-17, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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- Orem Utah
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Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
I have tried to tell him that that I don't like what he is doing and have almost killed him and killed him for real(but than we went back in time because I am a softie) But he still does it. He might think I am kidding as I often have hard time making people know when I am being serious.
Actors we are people pretending to be people
Thanks to Kwarkpudding for the amazing Aran Avatar
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2011-03-17, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2005
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- Edmonton, Canada
Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
#3 seems relatively easy to deal with - find a way for there to be a modest financial incentive for whatever you want the group to do, and decrease other treasure accordingly.
#4 can be dealt with IC. Not every attack needs to be found out, but if there's a series of attacks - especially with a signature style - any lawful society is going to start divining or investigating.
#5 is asinine and gets stomped on OOC. This goes double for #6.
A lot of this would seem to be a play for getting a disproportionate share of attention at sessions."We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." Kurt Vonnegut
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2011-03-17, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
Have you talked to the rest of the group? Are they having the same problems you are?
Also, this sounds like an OOC problem. It needs to be handled OOC, not IC. Talk to him, and ask him what's wrong/why he's doing what he's doing.He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2011-03-17, 10:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
He sounds like a seriously obnoxious player. How do the other players feel about his antics?
Either way, what you should try is to talk to him outside the game, and explain to him that you have some serious issues with the way he is choosing to play this game, and that yes you are serious. Explain that you want him to have fun, but at the same time he's ruining your fun and (possibly) that of the other players.
If a serious discussion about being a team player doesn't fix things, you may have no choice except to remove him from the game.
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2011-03-17, 11:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
Spoiler
1) Makes late night stealing trips
This annoys me because
A) it leaves the other players with nothing to do
B) I find it very boring to DM
C) It takes so loooooong
2) Has way to high Diplomacy
This is not something he does but feels like no matter what he asks the NPCs are forced to obey unless I ignore his roll which seems unfair
3)Refuses to do anything for free
4)Attacks NPCs for no reason
5)Belittles other players
6)Steals form other players
7)Asks for more xp for silly things
8)Refuses to allow other players to talk to npcs (sometimes)
9)Makes himself the star even though his character seems to have no interest in the plot or story progression at all
#2 is probably a matter of a DM's interpretation of a diplomacy check. How to handle diplomacy is a topic worthy of another thread.
#3 is normal rogue behavior. You may want to mention that even if he isn't getting paid for a quest, there may be loot there, or other things on the quest that would help him with other goals. Not a big problem, AFAIK
#4. Throw him in jail or something. Make an NPC that's almost as strong as him, and can make him wonder if he can really win the fight. Nothing overpowered, but something to make it a matter of luck. Or have the NPC escape and carry a grudge, or whatever. Though you may also want to ask why he's attacking before you do this, as he may actually have reasons to attack.
#5. I can understand IC smack talk. If it's OOC, then it's a problem. Another topic worthy of its own thread.
#6 is something I auto-ban, except for very special circumstances. If a player tried that, I would simply say "No, you can't steal from your team mates, because I don't want to run a PvP campaign", or something similar.
#7 either ignore or remind him that you only get exp for productive things, not silly things.
#8 Well if he has a habit of attacking NPCs, maybe some of them don't want to talk to him. Though it may just be an IC thing if he has the party face skills.
#9 You're the DM. It's your job to make players the stars.
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2011-03-17, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
If that is in according with how the character would act/react based on the characters fluff that is one thing. Note: using the alignment as a shield is not acceptable. If the reason for the actions are because of the player gets his fun that way then kick him.
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2011-03-18, 02:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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- Kansas
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Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
I don't know why people tread on eggshells with their friends so much. If one of your friends is doing something you don't like you call them on it. One of my friends was exhibiting that behavior in one of the games I was running, I simply told him I was not going to let him play a sociopathic hobo in my game and if he intended on continuing that path he should go find somewhere else to play because it wouldn't be with me.
Turns out we're still friends and he's finally actually roleplaying instead of chaotic stupiding everything.End of line.
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2011-03-18, 07:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Harrisburg, PA
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Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
I want my co-workers and neighbors to lay piles of gold and delicious foods at my feet, but I'm pretty sure they don't want to do that, so I'm never going to force the issue.
Y'all should talk, as a group, about the kind of game you want to play. You obviously want high fantasy, traditional DnD heroic adventures. This player seems to want to play morally grey, dashing rogue, pirate/swashbuckler game with potential for interparty conflict. Compromise together. Work on a solution. Don't let it fester in game or ain't nobody gonna be happy.
Also, figure out what the other two players want out of the game. They might not like getting stolen from, but perhaps they'd be interested in more intra-party "drama" than you are. More character-directed story.
Also, thieving trips? Resolve it with one roll. Don't make it take forever, that's entirely your prerogative. Ask how he wants to go about thieving. Make him roll one appropriate skill, and let him describe what happens if he succeeds. Inversely, give him a really bad day if he fails his check.
I.E.
DM: That gold medallion you pawned? Turns out it belonged to the mob boss's daughter. Yes, the pawn shop guy works for him, and knows your face. You wake up the next morning with a knife at your throat.
Just some thoughts.Proud Happy Biscuit (TM) salesman
avatar: Fence the gypsy halfling rogue by Sampi
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2011-03-18, 08:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
I'm agree with the OP, I wouldn't want to DM or play with a character that did most of those things.
1) A quick simple Stealth or Theivery check - you roll, explain what happened that night.. give a few gold for success start planning who would take office at the players actions. eventually he'll roll low and it come back to haunt him. (and the party)
The big part is though that in the vast majority of times its one roll and move on.
2)They may be forced to LIKE him, but dip cannot force them to do something they don't want to do. Its changes peoples attitudes not their desires or wants. People forget that and think Dip is a mind effecting ability.
3)Either just give in, and adjust treasure elsewhere, or start leaving him as the party will do something for free. He'll soon want to get involved.
4) A big big no no, if its not what his character would do. Ask him straight up 'why are you doing this?' It will allow you to work out his motives, which to me just seem to be 'lets break the plot'
Furthermore any unjustified attack will more the player to Evil (turning them into a NPC in my games)
5) In game? Not fun but allowable. Encourage the other players to give as good as they get - there's more of them. OOC put a stop to it straight away.
6) Thats a tough one, for the other players, as they KNOW he's taken it - but then don't.
I suggest playing it out everytime... make him make enough rolls and they'll find out eventually. Remind the other players then if they kick the 'PC' out thats there decision too.
7) Just say no.
8)How does he achieve this? This is an OOC and IC problem. Its strikes to the heart of his selfishness.
I would have a important NPC just talk over him, shout him down, tell him to be quiet as 'I want to speak to 'other PC' - someone with some manners'
9)Again - I would be interested in how. As a DM you do have to make sure everyone gets a little time. Its hard with players like this - very hard - but make it obvious its someone elses 'time' and see what he does. If he still doesn't shut up. Plain OOC say it.
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Good luck - I would hate to DM someone like that - we're all friends at my table and very quickly sit back if its someone else's show.
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2011-03-18, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2005
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- Somerville, MA
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Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
Not quite the same thing though. The GM is offering to run a game. He wants to run something specific and has told the players what that is. It's up to the players to come up with heroic characters that fit the game, or to not play at all. Deciding to play a scoundrel anyway and hope the GM doesn't notice is just rude.
If you like what I have to say, please check out my GMing Blog where I discuss writing and roleplaying in greater depth.
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2011-03-18, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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- Dallas, TX
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Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
You are kidding; you are not being serious.
If youwere serious, you would have done it, and not gone back in time to undo it. You have shown him that you will not kill the character or do anything else to stop him. So he has no motivation to change.
Sure, talk to him. Talk to the other players. But only two people can actually make a change -- either you or him. And he won't, ever, because he doesn't want to.
The inescapable conclusion is that you must change it, or it won't change.
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2011-03-18, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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- Kansas
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2011-03-18, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Harrisburg, PA
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Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
True, it's not a perfect metaphor. However, I strongly believe that everyone will be a lot happier if the GM says "Hey, let's achieve a compromise concerning what kind of game we're all interested in playing," than if he says, "Hey, let's play the kind of game I want to play, and if you don't like it, take a hike."
Fun for all, not fun for one, in other words.Proud Happy Biscuit (TM) salesman
avatar: Fence the gypsy halfling rogue by Sampi
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2011-03-18, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Maryland
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Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
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2011-03-18, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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- Up there past them trees!
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2011-03-18, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
A is perfectly understandable, but I have some problem with B--it sounds like you might be trying to railroad your players too much. Now, I'm not sure about that--I obviously don't have enough info--but that's the impression I got. Whether or not C is a problem probably depends on exactly what kind of drama it creates. Generally, it does create the wrong kind of drama, though.
Anyway a list of things he does that annoy me
1) Makes late night stealing trips
This annoys me because
A) it leaves the other players with nothing to do
B) I find it very boring to DM
C) It takes so loooooong
2) Has way to high Diplomacy
This is not something he does but feels like no matter what he asks the NPCs are forced to obey unless I ignore his roll which seems unfair
3)Refuses to do anything for free
4)Attacks NPCs for no reason
5)Belittles other players
6)Steals form other players
7)Asks for more xp for silly things
8)Refuses to allow other players to talk to npcs (sometimes)
9)Makes himself the star even though his character seems to have no interest in the plot or story progression at all
Even though he does all these things I don't want to just kick him out or anything but it has gotten to point where I am not having fun anymore.
I want my players to be the heroes not guys who did for the money. Any advice or help would be most welcome.Last edited by dps; 2011-03-18 at 04:44 PM.
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2011-03-18, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
Yeah, first suggestion is to use the diplomacy rules posted in the homebrew section mentioned earlier. They are definitely a good fix.
Also talk to him. I have the same issue. Like you, I don't want to tread too hard, but sometimes players can be more frustrating than you would want.
What sorts of skills does he have? If he isn't too good at identifying things, perhaps he steals something cursed for non-lawful? Make his stealing risky and he won't do it.
Also talk to him. I feel like that's basically the only thing you can do.
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2011-03-18, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Bristol, UK
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Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
This player sounds like a spotlight-hogging tool.
I don't know how your players even put up with being at the same table as him.Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
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2011-03-18, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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- Orlando, FL
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Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
1) Makes late night stealing trips Ha ha, that's me. I love little side scenes, especially when I get to indulge my rogue's sneaky side, but the thing I had to learn is - not during the game! Let him know if he wants to go off on his own and thieve, he needs to find a time to get with you outside of games for it. He could arrive early or stay late. He could send you an email about it. He could ask to meet up with you during the week - he buys you a beer, you run him a scene. He'll still get his one-on-one scene, the other players don't have to sit around and be bored, and you'll probably have more fun with it if you're not trying to rush through it to get back to the rest of the game.
2) Has way too high Diplomacy Diplomacy rolls are always a grey area. First of all, common sense has to play a part. You can roll a nat-20 Diplomacy check with a +50 modifier, but if you just stabbed a man's daughter in front of him, he is not your friend. Second, while the stats are there for a reason, circumstances - and roleplay - should affect the role. If he can legitimately RP a diplomatic encounter, give him a bonus on the role. If he's rude or condescending to the NPC's, though, he should get negatives - big ones. Third, as has been pointed out, Diplomacy affects attitude - it's not mind control. That guard in front of the palace might think you're the cat's pajama's, but he's still not gonna let you in without the proper papers. He's got a job to do. (However, to modify this... someone who puts a lot of points into Dip took them away from something else. It isn't fair to completely nerf the skill; Diplomacy exists to give characters the option of talking their way out of trouble. But don't ever feel like it's forcing your hand, either. While Diplomacy should work most of the time, it is 100% legitimate for some NPC's to have reasons not to do what the PC wants, even if they like him.)
3)Refuses to do anything for free So pay him. Or have one of the other players pay him. Or talk up the treasure most likely waiting at the end of the dungeon. Or, y'know... let his character stay home alone while everyone else goes out and has adventures. That's not a great option, but it is an option - and if the rest of the party wants to do something and he absolutely stonewalls ic-ly, oh well. Guess he's going to be bored.
4)Attacks NPCs for no reason I usually hate, hate, hate the idea of GM's telling players "your character wouldn't do that," but you know what? It is ok to ask him to justify his character's actions. If he can't come up with a reasonable explanation, then tell him no. Honestly, in real life nobody just randomly attacks people for no reason. People who do are usually psychopaths, and what happens to them is, they either get killed or they get locked away forever. Let him know that if he acts like this, he is GOING to lose his character one way or another.
5)Belittles other players In or out of character? If it's IC, let the other characters deal with it. If OOC, tell him politely but firmly that if he continues, you're going to have to ask him to leave the game.
6)Steals form other players Er... if this is IC, see above. If it's OOC... good lord, what's going on over there? Make him give it back!
7)Asks for more xp for silly things ...Tell him no?
8)Refuses to allow other players to talk to npcs (sometimes) Ok, in all my years of gaming, if I wanted to talk to an NPC, and the GM wanted me to talk to the NPC, I have never once had another player prevent this. This is up to your other players to start asserting themselves with this guy.
9)Makes himself the star even though his character seems to have no interest in the plot or story progression at all ...Good luck with that? He can think he's the star all he wants, but if he's not contributing, the rest of the world isn't going to play along.Our Shadowrun game is pretty much one long string of bad ideas, fueled by enthusiasm.
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2011-03-19, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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- Dallas, TX
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Re: Fun for All or Fun for one
This is the real problem -- and the solution.
He will not change for free. Until doing it has a cost he's not willing to pay, he's going to do it. So have a victim send an assassin after him, or a squad of guards, or have his next would-be victim be deaf. (Diplomacy doesn't work unless he is heard.)
But the change will come from you, not from him.Last edited by Jay R; 2011-03-20 at 02:41 PM.