[3.x] Greater and Superior Haste Spell

[Kansaschaser]

If you were to make a Greater and Superior versions of the Haste spell, what stats would they have?

Normally Greater versions of spells are 3 levels higher, so the Haste, Greater would be a 6th level spell. Superior versions end up being 3 levels higher than the Greater versions, so Haste, Superior would be a 9th level spell.

What would be the appropriate power level of these spells?

[Jarian]

Haste, Greater
Transmutation
Level: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

As haste, except that the bonuses to attack rolls and reflex saves increase to +1/4 caster levels, and the subjects may perform a full attack as a standard action while this spell is active. Affected creatures may still only perform a single full-attack per round, even if they gain the ability to use multiple standard actions in a round.

Regarding a Superior version... I think that's called Time Stop.

[Kansaschaser]

Since I don't want to step on Time Stop's toes (so to speak), I think I'd add a total of +60ft of movement, a larger dodge bonus to armor class, and the ability to cast it as a swift action.

[ericgrau]

Haste is already so good it's almost essential, whether via party caster or magic item. I wouldn't take it too far.

Extra actions get better and better as you get to higher level, so I'd avoid or minimize those. Higher numerical bonuses are fine, but scaling untyped bonuses are a cardinal sin in D&D, because they are infinitely stackable from any number of different sources. Even stacking one large untyped bonus on top of all your normal typed bonuses is pretty dang powerful. You might as well be X levels higher for the purpose of that roll . Small flat untyped bonuses or big scaling typed bonuses are fine.

So... combining what's been said so far: 8th level spell, castable as a swift, +2 attack bonus, +2 AC, +1 reflex saves, +60' speed, still only 1 extra attack. And I'm not sure about so much movement speed. Maybe throw in some minor effect that won't hurt game balance terribly like an extra move action that can't be used for movement nor full round actions. You could use it to draw a weapon or potion or other item, open a door, etc.

[Ziegander]

Haste is already so good it's almost essential, whether via party caster or magic item. I wouldn't take it too far.

Extra actions get better and better as you get to higher level, so I'd avoid or minimize those. Higher numerical bonuses are fine, but scaling untyped bonuses are a cardinal sin in D&D, because they are infinitely stackable from any number of different sources. Even stacking one large untyped bonus on top of all your normal typed bonuses is pretty dang powerful. You might as well be X levels higher for the purpose of that roll . Small flat untyped bonuses or big scaling typed bonuses are fine.

So... combining what's been said so far: 8th level spell, castable as a swift, +2 attack bonus, +2 AC, +1 reflex saves, +60' speed, still only 1 extra attack. And I'm not sure about so much movement speed. Maybe throw in some minor effect that won't hurt game balance terribly like an extra move action that can't be used for movement nor full round actions. You could use it to draw a weapon or potion or other item, open a door, etc.

So much sadness and confusion, so few smileys to represent it.

You do realize that Haste doesn't grant extra actions, and it hasn't since 3.0 was revised to 3.5, right? It grants an extra attack, which doesn't even stack with other effects that grant extra attacks like, oh, flurry of blows, whirlwind attack, or the Speed enchantment. The most significant benefit it provides, if you can call it that, is a +1 untyped bonus to attack rolls. Oh my! An extra 5% chance to hit! It lasts for, at MOST, 2 minutes per casting.

So good it's almost essential? Really now? At 3rd level, there are countless spells which are "more essential" (as much as that makes sense) than Haste. Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon, Fly, Slow. Every one of these is more useful to a party, and in more situations.

Jarian's Greater Haste is on the right track, but it still only benefits weapon attackers, which is slightly irritating, but if casters want to break the game by being super fast they already have Celerity and its ilk so, whatever. Superior Haste would have to be something outrageously powerful for it to rival other 9th level spells. Something like automatically succeeding at attack rolls as if targeting objects, automatically succeeding at Reflex saves, and attacks automatically missing. I don't know how you get faster than that + full attack as a standard action without granting extra actions and that allows casters to completely abuse the hell out of it.

[NineThePuma]

Superior Haste is just Haste from 3.0

[Ernir]

Superior Haste is just Haste from 3.0

It has been said before that 3.0 Haste would make a pretty damn good 9th level spell.

Hell, it's a 9th level spell I'd take every time I could. Which means it's probably too powerful to be a 9th level spell.

[DracoDei]

At one point I had reason to create a Haste spell that was more like the 3.0 version, but which didn't break casters. The effects were noticeably better than the 3.5 version, so I made it single target to keep it at the same level. If you gave it the 3.5 Haste's multi-targeting that might be good enough to make it 6th level. There was some discussion about allowing it to grant an additional standard action that could be used for anything except per-day limited casting or using items that require such abilities (so martial strikes, potion quaffing (since those don't require any knowledge), Warlock Eldritch blasts and innovcations, binder powers and so on and so forth) but I didn't feel like going there.

People also kept nagging for something that would work with the SRD spell-casters... in trying to explain why that would be completely broken I told them that that would be a 9th level spell with a hefty XP cost. I mention this because if you combine that with better numerical bonuses, and make it single target again, you fill out your desire for something worthy of the name Superior Haste.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164282

If you don't feel like clicking a link, I have reproduced the spell itself and a more detailed description of the history behind it below.

Spoiler

Show

True Haste
Target: One Creature

As per Haste(Including which level it is for which classes) except that no bonus to base movement rate is given, but if the creature forgoes the extra attack granted, or does not attack in a given round it gains an additional move action. If a creature is benefiting from both Haste and True Haste (or spells or effects with similar results), the effects do not stack. It must decide at the time of casting, and again at the beginning of its turn which to benefit from until the start of its next turn.




Discussion/Background:
Basically when I was working on updating my Wing Dragons from 3.0 (or was it 2nd?) to 3.5, I thought that the 3.5 was a bit weaksauce for the physical embodiment of Flight, but I was informed that the 3.0 version overpowered casters. So I made this as a patch (it was just an SLA after all...). Later, I edited it into the format you see here, and posted it to some threads about narrowing the Fighter vs Full-caster gap. It is much more useful for a fighter, and gives the advantage in a multi-round one-on-one slug-fest (before feats etc, are taken into account) more firmly to the person who wins initiative/is more aggressive (IE they lead with an Full-Attack, rather than leading with a Standard, and then the more stationary combatant getting a full-attack on them). Obviously it also helps rogues, since they can Tumble into a flanking position and then get off a full salvo of sneak-attacks before their d6 HD selves are subject to possible return attacks. It does make full-attacking monsters (including/especially dragons*) significantly more powerful but I think we can live with that.

*It is probably one of a Wing Dragon's more devastating abilities, since they get Sneak Attack dice equal to half their age category, and whose breathweapon boils down to "No Save, No SR, just Blinded for as long as you stay anywhere near me", so they don't need a flanker.

Incidentally, I recommend True Haste itself as much more fun for the non-casters in the group, and at least somewhat more of an interesting tactical challenge for the caster since they have to decide who to put it on. Of course, in any game that includes True Haste, you might want to call the 6th level version True Haste, Mass instead of Haste, Greater especially if you drop the basic Haste out of the game. I have no idea if you would want to do that or not though.