Vow of Poverty Fix

[Etrivar]

Hullo Hullo!

I've been working on a fix for the Vow of Poverty. I love the flavor of the overall idea, but the original implementation is by far to weak to be acceptable, and I was looking to soup it up to the point that a character who has taken a VoP could be expected to hold their own against an equipped character. Everything is the same as stated in the BoED, except as noted here.

First change: VoP would become a stand alone feat, that way you don't have to burn two feats on it.

Armor Bonus: you would start with a bonus of 5 and it would increase every two levels, to a max of 14, instead of 10.

Deflection Bonus: +1 at level 5 and an additional +1 every five levels thereafter.

Natural Armor Bonus: +1 at level six, with an additional +1 every six levels thereafter.

Resistance Bonus: +1 at level four, with an additional +1 every four levels thereafter.

Exalted Strike: +1 at second level, and an additional plus one every two levels, for a max of +10 to attack and damage, instead of +5.
(The reason that exalted strike went up so much is that by 20th level, most characters have a +5 somethingsomething-weapon-ofsomething, and those somethings take the enhancement bonus of the weapon to +10. Which means to keep it balanced, VoP characters have to be given either a straight +10 bonus, or weapons they wield have to be given specific good-related enhancements, like holy, disrupting, evil-outsider-bane, et cetera. I was thinking about setting it up a little bit like a soulknife, with a set of enhancements you can apply, but I'm not sure whether to make it permanent, or changeable. Its also possible that you should just get a specific enhancement at a specific level. What do you guys think?)

Ability Enhancement: +2 to one ability score at level four. Every four levels thereafter, you add two to any ability that you have already improved with VoP, and choose one new ability to enhance. At level 20 you will have +10 to one ability, +8 to another, +6, +4, and +2.

Those were the changes that I had in mind. Is it too much? Not enough? any other thoughts on how to improve it? PEACH!

[Asarlai]

Wait... You think Vow of Poverty is too WEAK?!

[Noneoyabizzness]

Wait... You think Vow of Poverty is too WEAK?!

Yes. As compared to wbl figures. Of course that # can be conservative as actual play and treasure gain may likely exceed that estimate.
Plus spellcasters are neutered out of components

[elpollo]

Wait... You think Vow of Poverty is too WEAK?!

That'll be because it is, but the main problem is the lack of utility that magic items give. Can you fly, become invisible, see invisibility, become ethereal, etc.? It's still not a proper substitute for magic items.

[Moriato]

Wait... You think Vow of Poverty is too WEAK?!

It is, unless you're play in a very low-magic or low-wealth campaign. In a campaign with normal WBL, and readily available magic items, you can easily buy magic items that will give you all the benefits that vow of poverty gives you and thensome. Plus you can choose what items you want to buy, and you don't have to spend a feat to get them.

[Vladislav]

Vow of Poverty cannot possibly be fixed without tearing it down completely and rebuilding it from the ground up. Maybe not even then.

The main problem is that either (a) the bonuses are too horribly good or (b) the lack of access to magical items screws you over.

There is no middle ground. Either (a) or (b) is going to occur. All the "fixes" I've seen, including this one, merely change the probability of (a)/(b) occuring (for example, from 50/50 to 60/40 or 70/30). They do not address the core problem.

[Re'ozul]

Drolyt made one some time ago: Drolyt's VoP fix

[Asarlai]

Some of the more powerful characters I've seen have been Vow of Poverty Monks, or Soul-Knives, or a Vow of Poverty, Vow of Peace Monk who had to face challenges double the appropriate CR in order for something to be able to hit his AC. I mean, in combination with other exalted feats, it can be quite powerful.

Plus spellcasters are neutered out of components

Wait, why would a spell-caster take Vow of Poverty?

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Moved to Homebrew Design.

Burble.

[Mystic Muse]

Wait, why would a spell-caster take Vow of Poverty?

A +8 to their main casting stat? That's not possible before epic levels and even then it costs 640,000 gp.

[Kobold-Bard]

Drolyt made one some time ago: Drolyt's VoP fix

+1. It's slightly too good at low levels (armour bonuses out the wazoo), but even once variety in magic items kicks in it is a pretty solid option rather than failing miserably. Even comes with an Epic progression courtesy of Vaynor.

[The Glyphstone]

A +8 to their main casting stat? That's not possible before epic levels and even then it costs 640,000 gp.

It's only a +2 over what they'd get from a Headband/Cloak/Necklace (for 36,000), and VoP (minus that +8) totals to about 500K by level 20. Most spellcasters are going to want that extra 200,000-odd gold to buy stuff with, rather than a +1 to their primary save DC and maybe an extra spell slot or two.

[Mystic Muse]

It's only a +2 over what they'd get from a Headband/Cloak/Necklace (for 36,000), and VoP (minus that +8) totals to about 500K by level 20. Most spellcasters are going to want that extra 200,000-odd gold to buy stuff with, rather than a +1 to their primary save DC and maybe an extra spell slot or two.

Oh, I know. I was just offering a possible reason they would take it.

[Sacrieur]

Wait... You think Vow of Poverty is too WEAK?!

This was my initial reaction too.

[The Glyphstone]

This was my initial reaction too.

Which is the reason why it's endured so long. As mentioned, the feat is mathematically inferior to WBL at every single point in its existence barring a single additional +2 stat mod, in addition to being massively less flexible. The only classes that can take it without being crippled are ones that are already overpowered, or Totemists.

[Zaydos]

How do the bonus feats it give factor into this wealth calculation?

Either way yes VoP is a weaker option. I've seen it done to good effects boosting low-level monks' AC but that's the only time I've seen it used effectively. At high levels AC buffs are so easily available (or a friend's Mage Armor spell) that it gets weaker fast.

[Sacrieur]

How do the bonus feats it give factor into this wealth calculation?

Either way yes VoP is a weaker option. I've seen it done to good effects boosting low-level monks' AC but that's the only time I've seen it used effectively. At high levels AC buffs are so easily available (or a friend's Mage Armor spell) that it gets weaker fast.

VoP gives some massive bonuses. Bonus exalted feats, ability increases, DR, AC bonuses, Regeneration, and at 12th level the character doesn't even have to breath or eat. Please note too that just because the character can't own magical items doesn't mean he can't be affected by them.

And this is all on top of regular levels. Considering some monk combinations are already really powerful, a VoP monk is one of the most powerful classes I've seen.

[The Glyphstone]

VoP gives some massive bonuses. Bonus exalted feats, ability increases, DR, AC bonuses, and at 12th level the character doesn't even have to breath or eat.

And this is all on top of regular levels. Considering some monk combinations are already really powerful, a VoP monk is one of the most powerful classes I've seen.

The thing is, you can buy all of that with WBL. A VoP monk may be the most powerful thing you've ever seen, but that same monk with the amount of GP to spend that the game expects him to have will be that powerful and more.

[Sacrieur]

The thing is, you can buy all of that with WBL. A VoP monk may be the most powerful thing you've ever seen, but that same monk with the amount of GP to spend that the game expects him to have will be that powerful and more.

Nah, pun-pun is the most powerful thing I've seen =P. I don't see how VoP is underpowered, exalted feats are shiny.

[Mystic Muse]

Nah, pun-pun is the most powerful thing I've seen =P. I don't see how VoP is underpowered, exalted feats are shiny.

Really? Because I've looked at them and short of homebrew there are barely any worth taking.

[Lord_Gareth]

Really? Because I've looked at them and short of homebrew there are none any worth taking.

Fixed. I checked by BoED first just to be sure. There isn't a single Exalted feat worth taking. In fact, the only feat worth taking in the whole book (Ancestral Relic) is [General].

[Mystic Muse]

Fixed. I checked by BoED first just to be sure. There isn't a single Exalted feat worth taking. In fact, the only feat worth taking in the whole book (Ancestral Relic) is [General].

Well, Celestial familiar isn't bad. The only problem is, you'll run out of feats you can take or that are worth taking before you run out of bonus exalted feats to take.

[The Glyphstone]

Fixed. I checked by BoED first just to be sure. There isn't a single Exalted feat worth taking. In fact, the only feat worth taking in the whole book (Ancestral Relic) is [General].

Words of Creation has the [Exalted] tag, doesn't it?

but yeah, Exalted feats suck. Nymph's Kiss is the best of the lot, which isn't saying much. Touch of Golden Ice is bad, but not atrocious. The rest are worthless.

[Benly]

Touch Of Golden Ice is good for a low-level totemist or similar natural-attack spammer, too. (It's better if the DM rules that its DC scales like other poison attacks, of course, but RAW it doesn't.)

Exalted Wildshape is pretty decent for giving the creature's Su abilities and Ex special qualities (RAW, Wild Shape only gives Ex special attacks, not special qualities). The main one of note is the blink dog's free-action improved Dimension Door, which makes it a pretty nice high-mobility form for a non-melee druid, but there are some random Ex abilities you get with it from celestial animal forms that normal Wild Shape doesn't technically get you.

In general, though, you'll be hard pressed to find more than two or three exalted feats that are actually good feat picks for a given character, and for many characters there just aren't any. If the bonus feats from VoP were general feat picks, they'd be useful, but you're just not going to be getting useful feats out of it after the first couple at most. (Which is probably why pretty much every VoP fix makes them normal feat picks.)

Edit: Right, Words of Creation and Nymph's Kiss are good for the right character, too. This still means there's no more than maybe two feats any given character would want off the list as opposed to the heap you get from VoP. The most I can think of is three (bard with Obtain Familiar could benefit from WoC, Nymph's Kiss, and Celestial Familiar).

[lesser_minion]

Fixed. I checked by BoED first just to be sure. There isn't a single Exalted feat worth taking. In fact, the only feat worth taking in the whole book (Ancestral Relic) is [General].

It's not quite that bad: Words of Creation is incredibly useful for certain builds (namely, Dragonfire Inspiration Bards), and Nymph's Kiss is quite possibly the only skill-boosting feat in the game that's even remotely worth it.

I'm pretty sure people have had some success optimising Touch of Golden Ice as well, and Vow of Peace is nifty on a diplomancer.

The classes that come closest to being able to get actual mileage out of Vow of Poverty are the incarnate and the totemist, since both have a primary class feature that limits magic item use, while at the same time covering most of the important bases on its own.

[Sacrieur]

Bah, it has been awhile since I took a peak in the Exalted.

[The Glyphstone]

Bah, it has been awhile since I took a peak in the Exalted.

Don't worry, we don't blame you. There's not a whole lot in there that anyone would want to look at.

[Zaydos]

Touch Of Golden Ice is good for a low-level totemist or similar natural-attack spammer, too. (It's better if the DM rules that its DC scales like other poison attacks, of course, but RAW it doesn't.)

Exalted Wildshape is pretty decent for giving the creature's Su abilities and Ex special qualities (RAW, Wild Shape only gives Ex special attacks, not special qualities). The main one of note is the blink dog's free-action improved Dimension Door, which makes it a pretty nice high-mobility form for a non-melee druid, but there are some random Ex abilities you get with it from celestial animal forms that normal Wild Shape doesn't technically get you.

Blink (Su): A blink dog can use blink as the spell (caster level
8th), and can evoke or end the effect as a free action.

50% miss chance unless they have See Invisibility and Ghost Touch/Force effect (either one reduces it to 20%) and you can toggle it on and off so that you're fully corporeal during your turn and blinking during your opponents. Blink dogs get nice stuff.

[The Glyphstone]

50% miss chance unless they have See Invisibility and Ghost Touch/Force effect (either one reduces it to 20%) and you can toggle it on and off so that you're fully corporeal during your turn and blinking during your opponents. Blink dogs get nice stuff.

Druids, naturally, being one of the few classes that are not crippled by VoP. Because even if they have no money, they can still turn into a bear with a pet bear who summons more bears while shooting lightning from its eyes...it just won't have magic items anymore.

[Zaydos]

Druids, naturally, being one of the few classes that are not crippled by VoP. Because even if they have no money, they can still turn into a bear with a pet bear who summons more bears while shooting lightning from its eyes...it just won't have magic items anymore.

And they need to pay extra for their items anyway which makes it even better for them.

Then again a gish with a blink dog familiar + draconic polymorph is just delightfully evil.