Weird situation with paladin, don't know what to do.

[Sir_Chivalry]

OH NO, ANOTHER PALADIN THREAD!!

So, I'm looking for advice in the terms of in-game consequences and reactions to the direction the player of a paladin plans to take her character.

So I have a player, quite melodramatic at times, who has a grand plan for her character. She is an elf whose entire family and indeed country was slaughtered at the hands of a genocidal blackguard. At the time the blackguard spared her because he saw promise in her to become like him, as he was once a victim of similar circumstances many centuries ago.

Anyways, she's decided in order to get close enough to him to enact her revenge, she's going to seduce him, sleep with him, and join him as both lover and lieutenant for his armies.

The player is fine with falling for this, but what would the fallout be from her Order (a particularly militant one) and from those around her who found out about this action?

[Yukitsu]

Depends on the kind of game you're running, if the player wants to go full circle on this (kill him, but after rejection from the order takes up his helmet and leads the army as its new leader) or if she'd rather keep on being a paladin at heart. Everything that you plan for that character is going to ultimately stem from that, and really, you'll need to work together to make this kind of thing work. Trust me, been there done that.

[Talakeal]

A person would definitely fall for this, and I would actually think they would have fallen long ago or likely never even become a paladin in the first place if they think like this.

That said, I think it is a fine character motivation. Her allies would probably deal with her like any other traitor, although I don't have enough information to say exactly how that is.

[Sir_Chivalry]

A person would definitely fall for this, and I would actually think they would have fallen long ago or likely never even become a paladin in the first place if they think like this.

That said, I think it is a fine character motivation. Her allies would probably deal with her like any other traitor, although I don't have enough information to say exactly how that is.

Well she's sleeping with one of them, and will become pregnant with a child she will claim is the warlord's, so I'd say not well on that guy's part.

[Coidzor]

^: In that case, do you really want to have jealousy-fueled infanticide of one's own child in your game? Because that's a very real possibility from the information you just put forward.



They'd obviously assume she had gone rogue and seek to eliminate her along with him.

Edit: It seems to me, however, that she's being needlessly disruptive by leaving the party and wanting to keep up with the character and just building up the opportunity to create more discord and chaos at the table.

[WitchSlayer]

Why..

What

Who

SEND IN THE CHURCH ASSASSINS.

[dsmiles]

OH NO, ANOTHER PALADIN THREAD!!

So, I'm looking for advice in the terms of in-game consequences and reactions to the direction the player of a paladin plans to take her character.

So I have a player, quite melodramatic at times, who has a grand plan for her character. She is an elf whose entire family and indeed country was slaughtered at the hands of a genocidal blackguard. At the time the blackguard spared her because he saw promise in her to become like him, as he was once a victim of similar circumstances many centuries ago.

Anyways, she's decided in order to get close enough to him to enact her revenge, she's going to seduce him, sleep with him, and join him as both lover and lieutenant for his armies.

The player is fine with falling for this, but what would the fallout be from her Order (a particularly militant one) and from those around her who found out about this action?

You just wrote my next adventure. Find and recover a lost agent. Awesome. Thanks.

On topic: I think her order would, at a minimum, expel her and banish her for life, and her allies (depending on alignment) would either reject her (Lawful Good), or embrace the opportunity to bring down the evil warlord (Neutral and Chaotic Good)

[Yukitsu]

You know, it's perfectly acceptable for the guy doing the triple double X cross to you know, tell the people on their actual side what they're doing, and thus avoid some of the axing.

[Sir_Chivalry]

You know, it's perfectly acceptable for the guy doing the triple double X cross to you know, tell the people on their actual side what they're doing, and thus avoid some of the axing.

Ya, this player wants to be secretive.

[Talakeal]

Honestly the breach here is not so much one of good vs. evil or even law vs. chaos, it is a matter of honor. Twisting someone's emotions and using deception to hurt them is not heroic, and just because someone is non good or non lawful does not mean they will approve of or go along with these tactics. I would think it would be a very bad move to tell her allies (at least her npc allies) her plans lest they bring the conflict to the open, thereby exposing and ruining her plans.

[Coidzor]

On topic: I think her order would, at a minimum, expel her and banish her for life, and her allies (depending on alignment) would either reject her (Lawful Good), or embrace the opportunity to bring down the evil warlord (Neutral and Chaotic Good)

Eh? Um, she already left the order to join Evil McGenocide(as a lover no less...when he deliberately was killing elves for being elves...ow my brain). Expelling her from the order and banishing her is basically what she did to herself already.

You know, it's perfectly acceptable for the guy doing the triple double X cross to you know, tell the people on their actual side what they're doing, and thus avoid some of the axing.

But then Evil McGenocide might find out and use poison on her when they sleep together.

Alas, I'll probably never get to use BoEF, probably for the best though...

[Sir_Chivalry]

Eh? Um, she already left the order to join Evil McGenocide(as a lover no less...when he deliberately was killing elves for being elves...ow my brain). Expelling her from the order and banishing her is basically what she did to herself already.

Not yet, she's keeping it a secret at the moment. This won't end well.

[Coidzor]

Not yet, she's keeping it a secret at the moment. This won't end well.

Ok, so once they find out they know she's left the order and has gone all cacklingly evil to sleep with the man who killed her people so there's again, no point in expelling or banishing her.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Ok, so once they find out they know she's left the order and has gone all cacklingly evil to sleep with the man who killed her people so there's again, no point in expelling or banishing her.

True. Anyone familiar with the Order of Illumination from Comp Adventurer?

Ya, that order. For extra fun I smooshed it together with the Church of the Silver Flame from Eberron in my world. LE high cardinal ftw.

[comicshorse]

She is going to fall so hard she'll leave a crater

[Firemage]

Not really familiar with D&D, but I think she shouldn't have become a paladin in the first place, if she planned that even before she joined the order.


It sounds like she would become villain material.
Anyway I guess the order would send agents to either capture and try to redeem her or, if that fails, outright kill her. A more militant order would probably only do the latter.

She is going to fall so hard she'll leave a crater

What he said

[Sir_Chivalry]

Just a reminder, she's doing this in an attempt to kill him. Not that I think this voids any of your answers, but just saying there's a "kill the evil warlord" step in this list of goals.

[hamishspence]

The Order of Illumination are, in Complete Adventurer, known for being willing to sacrifice the innocent in the fight against evil.

Though in these cases "sacrifice" might be more "take actions that you know will result in collateral damage" rather than outright murder.

Plus, the book mentions that the organization is prone to corruption anyway- with people who have fallen all the way to blackguard, yet still see their actions as necessary and themselves as good people.

So- if this character is on the path to evil- she might receive secret support from those within the order who have embraced "ends justify means" morality a bit too much.

(though she might be publically condemned by the "mainstream" members when they find out).

[Sir_Chivalry]

The Order of Illumination are, in Complete Adventurer, known for being willing to sacrifice the innocent in the fight against evil.

Though in these cases "sacrifice" might be more "take actions that you know will result in collateral damage" rather than outright murder.

Plus, the book mentions that the organization is prone to corruption anyway- with people who have fallen all the way to blackguard, yet still see their actions as necessary and themselves as good people.

So- if this character is on the path to evil- she might receive secret support from those within the order who have embraced "ends justify means" morality a bit too much.

(though she might be publically condemned by the "mainstream" members when they find out).

Actually, that brings up a good point. The Order is sort of a wild card here. On the one hand she's living the mantra of doing anything to save innocent people, but on the other hand she's clearly being corrupted, if not by the blackguard than by her own lust for revenge.

I was thinking when the party goes to meet the head of the Order of Illumination/Silver Flame mix, that he would be aware of these actions and react negativly towards the paladin, but considering his Lawful Evil nature (I'm using High Cardinal Krozen from Eberron, see Five Nations, who is a LE cleric 12) he might be more lenient towards her actions.

Any thoughts?

And on another note, is cleric 12 suitable for the head of the Order of Illumination, or do you guys have any better ideas?

[hamishspence]

Maybe multiclass? Cleric/rogue/shadowbane Inquisitor?

[Morghen]

And on another note, is cleric 12 suitable for the head of the Order of Illumination, or do you guys have any better ideas?

Head of any religious organization should be quite a bit higher than 12. I'd prolly go as high as 16.

That said, my advice is general, not specific. I don't know anything about this Order of Illumination. But having some awesome prestige class could be cool.

[hamishspence]

Eberron is famous for having low level characters in high positions of power.

That said, Players Guide To Eberron suggests bumping up the villains if the campaign finally gets to high level- for example, making Vol a demilich rather than a lich.

[mangosta71]

She wants to keep it secret, and she's a member of a militant order? She has no reason to expect leniency. I would expect her Order to dispatch a champion specifically to seek her out and put her down.

Also, the head or her Order is LE? The god they serve has to be LN for that to work by the one-step rule. Is it St. Cuthbert? He seems like a reasonable fit for the character's initial motivation. But there's no way he'd be okay with this plan, even if the head of the order is.

[hamishspence]

It's Eberron- clerics can be of any alignment, regardless of the alignment of the deity.

The silver flame is LG- Krozen is LE- but the Eberron-specific rules allow it.

EDIT: Apparently it's not Eberron- but a homebrew world that has drawn ideas from various places, including Eberron. Still- the same principle applies- to have a LE cleric of an LG deity, generally needs the same kind of modification as Eberron does.

[Sir_Chivalry]

It's Eberron- clerics can be of any alignment, regardless of the alignment of the deity.

The silver flame is LG- Krozen is LE- but the Eberron-specific rules allow it.

EDIT: Apparently it's not Eberron- but a homebrew world that has drawn ideas from various places, including Eberron. Still- the same principle applies- to have a LE cleric of an LG deity, generally needs the same kind of modification as Eberron does.

That it is. Eberron just seemed like a good place to go for some interesting things, and the Order of Illumination proved to be playing quite an important part in the world, so to expand them I tacked te Silver Flame's details onto it.

The paladin worships Ehlonna, Krozen worships the "Light of Illumination" (The Silver Flame of my world)

I was wondering whether a sort of pugilist character might work. Does anyone know a good way (besides Swordsage, I know that one) to do the monk thing, preferably with the flurry intact? Either I'd use it for Krozen or his special assassin.

[Asheram]

OH NO, ANOTHER PALADIN THREAD!!

So, I'm looking for advice in the terms of in-game consequences and reactions to the direction the player of a paladin plans to take her character.

So I have a player, quite melodramatic at times, who has a grand plan for her character. She is an elf whose entire family and indeed country was slaughtered at the hands of a genocidal blackguard. At the time the blackguard spared her because he saw promise in her to become like him, as he was once a victim of similar circumstances many centuries ago.

Anyways, she's decided in order to get close enough to him to enact her revenge, she's going to seduce him, sleep with him, and join him as both lover and lieutenant for his armies.

Personally? I'd make her fall just for even Consider this.
and
How'd this be a revenge?

The player is fine with falling for this, but what would the fallout be from her Order (a particularly militant one) and from those around her who found out about this action?

Well... The order Is militant, so... I wouldn't be surprised if they banished and sent the assassins (she has lots of little secrets of the order that they probably doesn't want her to expose).

[Sir_Chivalry]

Personally? I'd make her fall just for even Consider this.
and
How'd this be a revenge?

Clarification, I said, " . . . decided in order to get close enough to him to enact her revenge . . .", that's not the revenge. That's to facilitate the revenge. The sword in his gut is her revenge.

[Shyftir]

She falls, but after she takes down the bad guy, go take a look at the Grey Guard in Complete Scoundrel. She will need to atone though.

[Asheram]

Clarification, I said, " . . . decided in order to get close enough to him to enact her revenge . . .", that's not the revenge. That's to facilitate the revenge. The sword in his gut is her revenge.

Ah, yeah.. I just meant that, that was his plan all along, wasn't it? To make her the same as him.

This pretty little elven lass, growing up as a paladin, making her fall and betraying all she believed in just to murder him... Hah!
*dying words* "Heh... I love being right. And I even got you to shag me."

(How old is that blackguard by the way? And that elven girl?)

[Surrealistik]

Why..

What

Who

SEND IN THE CHURCH ASSASSINS.

Someone call for an Oath of Enmity?