How to make the players choose to run.

[Godskook]

Ok, I've been running my campaign for upwards of 4 months now, and for all the various combat situations I've thrown at the party, I've yet to make them run. From anything. Hell, I've only 'killed' them once(non-lethal that time), even, though I've come within a hair's breath quite a few times.

But the one thing is, they've never wanted to run from an encounter. In all this time, it happened once, and it was nearly a metagame reason why they ran(they assumed correctly that the dungeon guardians needed a password, so they got it instead of trying to kill the things).

So my question is this: How do I design encounters that are threatening enough to chase off a party of level 4-5 adventurers, without making it insta-lethal?

System I'm using is 3.5, but I suspect that most of the advice will be system-inspecific.

[dsmiles]

Description.

Make them think that what they're facing is something way more powerful than it really is.

[Darwin]

Make it insta-lethal. If you keep teasing them with certainty of death and then not giving it to them you're making your players confident nothing can hurt them. They'll have to experience dying before they can be afraid of it. When I started playing with my current group some 4 months ago I made sure their first adventure would be a short one, to make sure they'd know how to react in the next campaign when I presented things they weren't supposed to fight.

[Andrewmo]

Make sure they know that not all encounters are level appropriate combat challanges and if they stay and fight something wearing a sign saying "run or die" they will die if they fight. It helps if they have a semirealistic estimation of their ability and running away is an option. Paladins won't run if by running away they doom an orphanage full of kids to be eaten so make sure the characters motivation does not commit them to a last stand

[Ranos]

You need long-term consequences besides death. Admittedly, 3.5 doesn't have a lot of those. Maybe you can use rust monsters ? Level draining monsters ? Make sure you've got someone in the group who can make his knowledge check to recognize them, and give them a good chance to run before the irreparable happens.

[Shinizak]

Don't stat it.

The lady of pain is a great example of this. In her city she is all powerful. She Never interacts with the people of the city except to flay them alive and send them to an inescapable maze. Her stats? no-one knows since they've never survived any interaction with her.

[Gorgondantess]

Make it insta-lethal. If you keep teasing them with certainty of death and then not giving it to them you're making your players confident nothing can hurt them. They'll have to experience dying before they can be afraid of it. When I started playing with my current group some 4 months ago I made sure their first adventure would be a short one, to make sure they'd know how to react in the next campaign when I presented things they weren't supposed to fight.

This. If you prove to them over and over that they're not going to be killed, guess what? They'll think they're not going to be killed.

[Blackjackg]

Kill off a PC.

Repeat as necessary.

At some point they'll learn.

[Cespenar]

Also, you might make them roll some open Sense Motive checks, and give some hints to those who have a good result about the grave danger they feel when looking at the creature. A little Anvilicious perhaps, but some people will only take something serious when a solid 'crunchy' evidence is present.

Pure description would of course be the ideal choice, however. I'd say start with that, and use the checks as a last resort.

[erikun]

How do I design encounters that are threatening enough to chase off a party of level 4-5 adventurers?

You don't.

If the party of players is determined to see every fight through to the finish, then there is nothing you can so, as the DM, to make them run short of mind-control or fear effects.

That said, there is plenty you can do that would make any sane party run - or kill off the insane ones. Throw them up against something wildly CR-inappropriate, and make sure you elaborate at how overpowering it is. You'll end up with a TPK if they try to fight it, but they'll learn that "when DM says this," it means they're in for a fight. You can throw them up against something with a high DR they don't have weapons to overcome, forcing them to retreat or get worn down to nothing. And you could, rather than throw one big fight at them, throw multiple mid-challanging fights that just keep coming. The single partol of the orc horde may not be challanging, but what about the next? And the next? Sure, they can ambush one or two, but there are still dozens to fight and no time to rest.

Something that the characters can't fight, like a burning forest or tidal wave, will probably make them run as well.

That said, why do you want to make them run? To make them fear for their characters? Some of them have already died or been dropped to negatives; if they didn't fear for them then, then being flattened by a boulder wouldn't be fearsome either.

[some guy]

So my question is this: How do I design encounters that are threatening enough to chase off a party of level 4-5 adventurers, without making it insta-lethal?

Description.

Make them think that what they're facing is something way more powerful than it really is.

I think description only works when the players know their characters can die. If they believe they will always win a fight, making an awesome description will only make them think how awesome they will be when they beat their adversary.

In the group I play in, we would always win the encounters, even high CR ones. We would charge in without plans or strategy. We were awesome. We were big damn (anti-)heroes. We were in for a heavy helping of hubris.
Then we fought 2 ragedrakes and a bearded devil. The ranger and two animal companions died. The ranger got better.
Then we fought a storm elemental. The barbarian died and we retreated. We made plans, strategy and thought of a way of escape. The ranger died again, but we were victorious.
Nowadays, we plan if we can. We run away when things go grim. We use strategy. We play smarter. We won a fight with a red dragon because we were humbled by recent defeats. Death has taken some levels but taught us a valuable lesson.

What I'm saying is that it's very hard to make players realize that sometimes you gotta run if they think they will survive.

[Frozen_Feet]

Put them against something obviously out of their league they can still run away from.

Example - something like a Colossus. It's huge. It's dangerous. It doesn't take a genius to realize that no, at levels 4 and 5, you aren't killing it. If they're stupid enough to try, let the rules do their thing (ie. kill the PCs off). They can still run away from it, though, and find another way.

[prufock]

Two ideas:

1 - Have the PCs fight a single random monster. Make it a difficult or very difficult encounter (CR = party ECL + 5), but they should win. Let it consume some of their precious resources. Maybe one of them even dies.

A short time later, they see a man fighting three of these monsters, and not breaking a sweat. Upon finishing them off, he turns to the party. "So, finally you've come." Smirk.

2 - Players do not fear death? Target something they DO fear. Their equipment.

[Frozen_Feet]

Ten thousand Adamantine Clockwork Horros is the solution. <3

[The Big Dice]

There's an old Legend of the Five Rings adventure called Mirror Mirror that mnages to get players to run every time I've ran it. The setup is, a powerful NPC has gone of into the Shadowlands, a place that is part radioactive wasteland, part gateway to hell and just going there endangers a character's soul. Anyway, this powerful NPC has gone there to die, but he is needed. So the PCs are sent to bring him back. When they finally catch up with him, the hunting horns of a group of Darm Moto are heard and they are approaching fast.

Imagine near immortal half man, half demons that are individually capable of taking on all but the most powerful demons. And they ride demon steeds that are kind of like undead horses, except they are fast, vicious and carnivorous. The NPC and his two almost as powerful bodyguards flee without a moment's hesitation. I've yet to see a PC stand and fight at the moment.

If they don't run, this is what the module advises:

If the PCs foolishly decide to attack, four Moto akutsukai sprout skeletal wings and fly, raining arrows down from the air. Kage's guards might distract them for two rounds while they scream to the PCs to get him away, but the Moto are on horseback. Unless the heroes change that, the Moto continue shooting and lancing. Then they come back for the Down and Out people. And start to play.

So that's the trick. Set up an NPC that they respect and they know is powerful. Then when that guy runs for hs life, they are almost certain to follow.

[Jothki]

Yeah, your best bet is probably to have a horde of Rust Monsters start to pour out of gaps in the walls.

[Ezeze]

You've got lots of really good suggestions here - no alternative motivations, a respected NPC who runs, imminent threat of severe consequences, and a good description. There is no shame in tacking "you should probably run" on the end of said description. Seriously. It's kind of like talking to a boy - the best way of getting what you want is probably to clearly ask for it.

I've only got two more things to add; use the "run away" scenario sparingly, and remember to give them XP for the encounter.

The first one is simple - people don't like to loose. It might be a great way to build tension, but they have to overcome eventually. We get beaten down enough in real life. When we play, we want to be heroes.

The second is a little more complicated. Remember the goal of this encounter was not to kill something, so they shouldn't be penalized for not realizing something that wasn't their goal in the first place. If the goal of the encounter was just survival, reward them for doing that.

[Rixx]

An overwhelming encounter that isn't insta-lethal could involve lots of monsters, who can't all necessarily get to the PCs all at once. The PCs won't be instantly killed, and should they choose to stand and fight, they should end up taking out a lot of the foes before they're overwhelmed.

A good way to do this would be for them to have a fight with a moderately tough monster - say CR+2 or so - and then have the next encounter be about fifteen of those monsters. They'll get the idea.

[Gamer Girl]

1.You need to make everything deadly. Throw out any idea of 'fairness' or 'plot' or 'fun'. Make it so that anyone character can die at anytime. If the players are comfortable with you, and know that you will be 'fair and balanced' then they won't run. When they encounter some bandits, they will just say ''Oh the Dm won't kill us here, it would not be fair we only have to worry in big fight 'end of game' scenes.

2.Make the monsters tough. You can do a lot to beef monster up, without changing their CR even. For example, give the monster good feats. A great many monsters have lame feats. Alertness is nice, for example, but a monster that will only be alive five minuets will make better use out of Improved Natural Attack. Don't give the bandits short swords, give them great swords.

Magic items are good here, especially disposable ones. Five orcs each with a potion of bull's strength or a drow cleric with a wand of doom can have big effect.

3.Keep the mystery. Avoid saying the numbers. Keep the players in the dark. Don't let them know things for free. Let them wonder why things did or did not work. This can work wonders in combat, when they don't know what spell or such has just effected them...and they don't have the time to take to 'skill check' it out.

4.Use more powerful foes. Or at least ones that look more powerful. Description is key here. They will be more afraid of a 'half dragon orc' then just an 'orc'..even more so if it can breathe lava. And illusions are great too. One of my classics is where the bad guy 'glows with red light', sure it's just an illusion, but it looks cool and scary.

5.Go for the kill. Don't have the monsters make weak attacks. A 70 foot long dragon will not cast sleep on a group attacking it....the dragon with breath and then stomp them. When fighting a wizard, don't have the wizard attack with 'acid splash', go right for lighting bolt.

7.Sneaky group tactics. This works great for goblinoids. Give each goblin a net or whip, so they can entangle foes, or buff up the orcs so they are good at grappling. And then while the player is in trouble, have others attack. Once the character is stuck under a net...the goblins with darts or alchemist fire attack them. This can work great in combos, goblin to disarm with a whip, and then worg to rush in and attack.

8.Go for debilitating attacks. Poison is the classic one. And there are tons of magic ones. A couple of strikes that make the players weakened, and then even 'weak' foes can take them. Anything that will give them a minus to hit is great. Curses are great too.

[Ezeze]

Throw out any idea of 'fairness' or 'plot' or 'fun'.

That's like sacrificing your King to get your Rook into position. Which is to say, loosing the war to win a specific battle.

Give each goblin a net or whip, so they can entangle foes, or buff up the orcs so they are good at grappling.

The idea is to make them run, isn't it? Why make it so that they can't run?

[dsmiles]

That's like sacrificing your King to get your Rook into position. Which is to say, loosing the war to win a specific battle.

Exactly, I thought the entire point of playing a game was to have fun.

[Randomatic]

One thing to remember is also make running tactically possible.
One of my former GM's tried his hardest to get us to run, by having us face encounters much too difficult for us to win, but he also never gave us an out.
We faced a dragon that we couldn't fight, but flew faster than we could run on an open plain.
We faced more horsemen than we could ever handle while we were on foot, on an open plain.
In those situations we never even tried to run, we would just have been chased down.
The GM never even thought of that, his whole purpose for those encounters was just to try to teach us that we should run away.
If you're going to use an overpowering encounter, make it slow, or confined to specific terrain. You could also make it large and have a small cave that the PCs can run into where they can't be followed or something like that.
I've found that when running is an actual option it's much more attractive.
I'd also suggest not having creatures that you want the PCs to run from threaten things that they care deeply about. Your characters aren't likely to run from an encounter if that means that their homes and families are going to be destroyed.
I'd also not be too adamant about your idea of forcing your characters to run, it can get tedious when you're playing and the GM is dead set on you performing one specific action.
If you've been trying to push them into running more often, you might just end up making them obstinate.
If that's been a theme of your game lately, I'd suggest giving the players a bit of a breather, and then showing them a difficult encounter, with an obvious way out of it. They'll tend to get the message.
You could also work on getting them in the habit of bypassing encounters. Come up with a time sensitive objective, with ways around most of the encounters, and once they get used to occasionally not having to face down an encounter it will seem a more normal reaction.

Stuff

That seems more advice to kill off your PCs not to get them to run away. I wouldn't run from most of those situations, as they don't provide an opportunity.

[hoff]

Use the environment. The cavern collapsing, raising water/lava. They will run for stuff they can't fight (unless you have a very prepared wizard).

[erikun]

1 - Have the PCs fight a single random monster. Make it a difficult or very difficult encounter (CR = party ECL + 5), but they should win. Let it consume some of their precious resources. Maybe one of them even dies.

A short time later, they see a man fighting three of these monsters, and not breaking a sweat. Upon finishing them off, he turns to the party. "So, finally you've come." Smirk.

Nearly every player I've gamed with absolutely loathes this kind of character. It's practically oozing "I am a better-than-you DMPC." They might stick around and try to assassinate him, just out of spite.

It might make a pretty good Big Bad.

[navar100]

All the OP said was that the party won't run. He didn't say why they won't run. Saying they aren't running because they don't think the DM will kill their characters is only supposition. Maybe they won't run because they're determined to be heroes and think running away is cowardly. Maybe they don't want to lose a fight.

I will make my own supposition. Why do you want the PCs to run? To make them fear the awe inspiring power of the DM's gameworld such that the players know they aren't the center of the multiverse; the DM has all the power mwah ha ha ha? Newsflash, the PCs are the center of the multiverse. Without them there is no game. The PCs are supposed to be the stars of the show.

It serves no purpose to purposely create a combat scenario the PC's are forced to run away just to teach them a lesson they should run away. That is not to say there shouldn't exist being more powerful than the party; just that there's no point to teaching the players a lesson of the almighty power of the DM. Naturally more powerful beings populate and interact with the gameworld. If the PCs initiate the combat for whatever reason all the time, fine, that's where metagame DM should help the players realize they aren't meant to fight everything or you're setting up the BBEG or his Lieutenant the PCs will fight many levels later. If the DM initiates the combat via the bad guys, teaching the players a lesson is DM vs Player attitude. For such a combat, defeating the stronger bad guys should not be the goal. The party should instead be having to get the McGuffin, destroy the McGuffin, cause the McGuffin to happen, or prevent the McGuffin from happening.

[Godskook]

Ok, here's the thing:

1.The point is strategy - I'm not trying to do this so that the PCs simply start running from encounter, but rather choose to start engaging in smarter ways.

2.I've dropped them into life-threatening situations a few dozen times already. Sometimes its sheer luck, like the time I sent 3 Deinonychus at them when they were level 3.

3.While I'm ok with killing off a player, I'd rather not set out a plan with the mentality: "Ok, this will kill at least one of them".

[Randomatic]

You could try setting up encounters with obvious strategic advantages.

Create ways for them to bypass sentries, places that they could use to ambush opponents that are as blatant as you can stomach making them, etc.

If your players have been having success then there isn't any drive to improve, but forcing them to fail is more likely to frustrate them than have them learn everything.

It might take time to get them thinking strategically, not every player approaches that game that way. So it might end up taking time for them to get used to the idea.

[valadil]

A few campaigns ago I told my players there were two types of encounters: fights and chase scenes. Winning a fight meant killing or disabling all the enemies. Winning a chase scene meant escape. Prior to that, my players had a mindset that escape was a failure since they didn't win the fight. The didn't want a consolation prize. As far as they saw it, they could win or die trying. I just had to redefine what winning meant and they were happy to do chase scenes after that.

[BiblioRook]

All the OP said was that the party won't run. He didn't say why they won't run. Saying they aren't running because they don't think the DM will kill their characters is only supposition. Maybe they won't run because they're determined to be heroes and think running away is cowardly. Maybe they don't want to lose a fight.

I was thinking about this too. Usually when I experience PCs refusing to run from a fight it's really simple. TO them, Fight = Reward. Not even going into the possibility of treasure, usually the reward in question is simply Exp.
My hypothetical solution to this? Don't grant the exp biased on individual encounters but rather just in bulk all at once once they reach the appropriate point to level up. (Or even alternatively opt out of giving exp all together and just inform them once they hit another level).
This really would be a tactic you would have to run by your players first though as you would want them to be clear on what's going on. Last thing you would want is for your players to think they weren't getting any opportunity to advance

But yeah, take out the reward and hopefully your players will realize that there's no real gain to fighting everything they come across.

Unfortunately this doesn't solve the kinds of characters that just simply want to fight for the sake of fighting and/or honor. In those cases? Yeah... you probably will have to start killing people off to get your point across as everyone else has mention...

[erikun]

The point is strategy - I'm not trying to do this so that the PCs simply start running from encounter, but rather choose to start engaging in smarter ways.

Make the opponents start using strategy. Have them ambush the party occasionally, especially if the party is walking into their territory. Have the archers move behind a wall or tree before attacking. Make the spellcasters turn invisible and start summoning stuff. Give one of the brutes spiked gauntlets, a two-handed guisarme, and Improved Trip.

You obviously don't want to throw all this at the party at once - a single new one in each different encounter should be challanging enough. However, if you want the players to start using strategy, then have their opponents start using strategy. Make use of situational bonuses. Once the players notice that the orc on the table gets a bonus to hit, and the orc behind the pillar gets a bonus to AC, then they'll start making use of these bonuses as well.

As a bonus, even these slight versions of optimization can make the opponents a lot more dangerous without increasing damage output.