Language Help

[IcarusWings]

I've been taking German classes for quite a while now, I'm doing a GCSE in them (British qualification for those not native to the Blessed Isle) and I'm doing pretty well, but there's always room to improve.
So, the request? I was just wondering if there were any native Germans/other-german-speaking-countries or fluent speakers of German, who wouldn't mind occasionally having a casual chat in German over Skype, PM, MSN, or anything along those lines, just so I can pick up miscellaneous vocab and fluency through osmosis (and of course, the occasional correction).

If anyone wouldn't mind doing that then it would be great, as it would help me in the course and in life in general.

[rakkoon]

You don't want to learn German from me but listening to music has helped my vocabulary. I love In Extremo, Saltatio Mortis, Rammstein and Subway to Sally personally. It's fun first guessing what they are talking about and then looking it up. Especially Rammstein have a few fun times playing with words which have a double meaning.

[Mauve Shirt]

I'm an advanced German student, wouldn't mind skyping. ID is in my profile.
I agree with rakkoon's suggestion. Die Toten Hosen and Die Aerzte have taught me a lot of vocabulary.

[Sunfall]

Native Speaker here. Alas, I don't have a chat client that doesn't wreck my PC, but if you'd like to practice longer texts, you could PM me

I agree with the other posters: music is a good way to practice. However, watch out for groups like Rammstein, Subway to Sally and In Extremo - while their language ist great, their way of pronounciation is a bit... antiquated. (We don't roll our Rs that much anymore ).

What has also helped me learning to fluidly speak foreign languages are movies and audio books. Do you have DVDs with German audio tracks? In terms of osmosis, it's the next best thing to a live conversation.

[rakkoon]

Yes another drawback from my list is that there are about seventy songs about fire and the sun and not one about leek or potatoes. Keeps me in the right mood though. Also I used to read He-man booklets in German because I though it just fit so well (German is a fabulous language for strong and mighty characters to me)

[Yora]

Unfortunately, german literature is easer outdated German, or utterly depressing. While I learned english mostly from reading english novels, I don't think there's any german literature I could recommend.

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh, and if there's a book you've read and reread and almost know by heart, get it in German. It's a lot of fun to read it and find new words and still understand exactly what's going on. I have a German copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone that I really enjoy.

[Yora]

What I can recommend is hunting down some DVDs of Loriot. That guy had a comedy show in the 60s and 70s that's all about weird conversations. Most of the humor comes from the fact that the caracters always maintain a perfectly articulated and well manered lanaguage in situations that become increasingly rediculous. It's a bit old by now but it's a perfect example of very good formal German.
It's also one of the few german comedy shows that is not relying heavily on regional dialects.
[1], [2], [3]
There's also "Deutsch für Ausländer", which is lightly NSWF.

Lyrics by Die Ärzte are also usually very entertaining.

[IcarusWings]

You don't want to learn German from me but listening to music has helped my vocabulary. I love In Extremo, Saltatio Mortis, Rammstein and Subway to Sally personally. It's fun first guessing what they are talking about and then looking it up. Especially Rammstein have a few fun times playing with words which have a double meaning.

That sounds like a good plan, I'll bear it in mind.

I'm an advanced German student, wouldn't mind skyping. ID is in my profile.
I agree with rakkoon's suggestion. Die Toten Hosen and Die Aerzte have taught me a lot of vocabulary.

Sounds good, I may add you on skype as soon as I have enough free time to actually have a conversation.

Native Speaker here. Alas, I don't have a chat client that doesn't wreck my PC, but if you'd like to practice longer texts, you could PM me

Thanks

May well do so for mock writing assessments or such things for checking over, as an actual conversation would fill up a PM Boz like no man's business.

I agree with the other posters: music is a good way to practice. However, watch out for groups like Rammstein, Subway to Sally and In Extremo - while their language ist great, their way of pronounciation is a bit... antiquated. (We don't roll our Rs that much anymore ).

What has also helped me learning to fluidly speak foreign languages are movies and audio books. Do you have DVDs with German audio tracks? In terms of osmosis, it's the next best thing to a live conversation.

I hadn't thought of that actually. Should I have subtitles on or not? Having it on would help me learn the vocab but I might get distracted.

Oh, and if there's a book you've read and reread and almost know by heart, get it in German. It's a lot of fun to read it and find new words and still understand exactly what's going on. I have a German copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone that I really enjoy.

That's something I may well bear in mind for the future (not in the position to buy loads of books at the moment), so thanks.

[Sunfall]

@Icarus Wings:
By all means, do that! And as for the subtitles: If you have difficulty understanding people at first, put them on - but in German also. You will learn quite a bit about collocation and idioms that way, because you see the dialogs in writing.

+++

And now for something slightly different:

Aww, come on now, Yora, there's plenty of good contemporary German literature out there - especially fantasy!

I for one adore Walter Moers with his Zamonia series (German: Zamonien-Romane). He's brilliant, just loves to play with language (which might make him suited only for advanced students, because now and then he just makes up words). There's one novel where he invents this whole history of literature for his world by using poets and authors whose names are just anagrams of real writers - brilliant! I'd strongly recommend Rumo oder die Wunder im Dunkeln and Die Stadt der Träumenden Bücher, they're the best of the bunch (and you don't have to read all of them because the continuitiy between them is... vague at best).

Other than that, I like Kai Meyer - but his old books are better than the current ones IMHO. Der Rattenzauber is a very intense and dark rendering of the old faerie tale of the Pied Piper. Hmmm, Cornelia Funke might be a good read - if you like your narrative simple. The Inkworld trilogy is quite a nice read (Tintenherz, Tintenblut, Tintentod, respectively). And I just love Der Herr der Diebe. That book just breathes Venice.

Hmmm, who else comes to mind? Ah yes, leaving fantasy territory somewhat, there is Frank Schätzing. Brilliant, brilliant German author, just loves his research and likes to show his work. That works particularly well in his magnum opus Der Schwarm, as most of his protagonists are scientists. It's a bit of a science fiction thriller, and you'll learn a lot about the deep sea. In German.

I also have a very interesting book about the history of witch hunting. It's very entertainingly written, a bit like Bill Bryson in German. I've forgotten the title right now, but I'll have it tomorrow.

[Yora]

Oh yes. Walter Moers I can fully recommend. He's quite amazing.

[Timeras]

Oh, and if there's a book you've read and reread and almost know by heart, get it in German. It's a lot of fun to read it and find new words and still understand exactly what's going on. I have a German copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone that I really enjoy.

Reading german books or german translations of english books is a good way to learn. But you should be carefull if you know the english version. Sometimes the translation differs from the original and you have to wonder what the translators were thinking (or if they were thinking at all).

If you would like to read some original german novels, I recommend Markus Heitz. I like his work in Shadowrun and his generic fantasy novels are supposed to be good as well, but I never got to read any of those.

[Adumbration]

Walter Moers thirded, though I've only read them translated.

[Keld Denar]

When I lived in Germany, my parents sent me a copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. I read it in english, because it was some of the first english literature I got after about 3-4 months of total immersion (I was an exchange student). Later, I bought the book for my host brother, in german. After he had read it, I went back and read it in german. It was really interesting, and really helped me get a better grasp since a lot of writing tends to be in past tense, which you don't use a whole lot in conversation.

What area do you live in? If its a decently large city, there are often german speaking clubs in or around large cities and universities. Do a search in your area for Stammtisch, and you might find some folks. Generally, they meet in a coffee shop or resturaunt or other public location and hang out, chat, play games, and enjoy food.

I've participated in them all across America, but I'm sure you'll find something in the UK as well.

[IcarusWings]

When I lived in Germany, my parents sent me a copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. I read it in english, because it was some of the first english literature I got after about 3-4 months of total immersion (I was an exchange student). Later, I bought the book for my host brother, in german. After he had read it, I went back and read it in german. It was really interesting, and really helped me get a better grasp since a lot of writing tends to be in past tense, which you don't use a whole lot in conversation.

What area do you live in? If its a decently large city, there are often german speaking clubs in or around large cities and universities. Do a search in your area for Stammtisch, and you might find some folks. Generally, they meet in a coffee shop or resturaunt or other public location and hang out, chat, play games, and enjoy food.

I've participated in them all across America, but I'm sure you'll find something in the UK as well.

Unfortunately I live in quite a small town, but I'll do a search anyway

[rakkoon]

watch out for groups like Rammstein, Subway to Sally and In Extremo - while their language ist great, their way of pronounciation is a bit... antiquated. (We don't roll our Rs that much anymore ).

That's a discussion I once had with somebody. The rolling R is typical for eastern German dialects then?

I once tried reading the Hobbit in French. I put the book away after 5 days. I read 10 times faster in English and the snail pace was putting me off. That's why smaller books work better in my world, and songs are short stories

[Eldan]

I think it just sounds better in the kind of music they make. Rammstein uses a lot of poetic language anyway.

[Yora]

That's a discussion I once had with somebody. The rolling R is typical for eastern German dialects then?

I don't think it's typical for any native german speakers.
Maybe in some places in the very south-west, but I don't think so.

However, the sound is not very hard to make for Germans and my Japanese teacher said Germans have very few problems with the Japanese R/L.
What we do have is something very similar to a true rolling R but not at the tip of the tongue but rather in the back of the throat, very similar to Arabic.
Here's an example (coincidentally by Rammstein) where you have a natural sounding R in german. He does the rolling at times in that song, but mostly it's just regular Rs.

English doesn't really have a true R. You could replace all the Rs in english with Ws and it would barely sound different.

[Eldan]

Hmm. In the South West, you'd start running into Alemanni dialects, like us Swiss people. And at least half of Switzerland completely swallows any and all Rs.

[Yora]

Maybe the Bavarians? I've been living near Nürnberg for 5 years, but we have almost no Barvarians up here.

But R is a weird letter anyway. It's just popular consent that the R in different languages is the same letter. It's actually quite a wide range of sometimes drastically different sounds.
In Germany, we would write the japanese ら,　り,　る,　れ, and　ろ alwas as R, but many Japanese write it as L instead. For us, it's comon consent that the rolling R is an R. But the way you have to move your mouth to make a rolling R is very similar to the way you form an L, but nothing at all like the way you would form an R in English.

[Sunfall]

Hmmm, when I hear the way Rammstein pronounce their texts, I'm always reminded of a... more unsavory period in German history when it was the normal way to speak. You can see it in old films and, of course, documentaries. I can't think of a contemporary dialect that would sound like that. The eastern parts of Germany tend to swallow their Rs, so they sound more like vowels than consonants. Sorry, I can't describe it any other way, but they sound nothing like that old way of speaking.

Yora's example is quite good, they're holding back in that one . For an even more colloquial way of pronounciation, look here.

(BTW, I've found that the Japanese R/L sound is easier to pronouce when you push it more in the direction of a D sound...)

Now, as for the other book I mentioned above: it's In drei Teufels Namen by Dieter Breuers. Like I said, a bit like Bill Bryson, but in German. And I found another gem that's easy to read and very, very profound: Reise zwischen Nacht und Morgen by Rafik Schami. I love that book. It's kinda bittersweet, but a great read.

And how could I forget that there are older German writers with really good comtemporary language as well? Erich Kästner and Michael Ende are both brilliant. Kästner wrote simple, but straight to the point, and Ende loved playing with language at least as much as Moers does. With Kästner, you might find the things he wrote for adults more interesting. With Ende, everything is good.

@Adumbration: I'm curious. Does Walter Moers translate well? What kind of impression do his texts leave you with?

[Eldan]

I can't help but think that Moers would be a pain to translate. Between the literature in-jokes and the ubiquitous puns...

[Adumbration]

I can't help but think that Moers would be a pain to translate. Between the literature in-jokes and the ubiquitous puns...

Maybe it was missing in translation something, but I thought it was still very entertaining to read. Don't know, I can't read or speak German so I can't comment on the original.

[LCR]

Unfortunately, german literature is easer outdated German, or utterly depressing. While I learned english mostly from reading english novels, I don't think there's any german literature I could recommend.

Um, what?
Daniel Kehlmann begs to differ.
So does Benjamin von Stuckrad-Barre.
Or Christian Kracht.
Or John von Düffel.

None of them are outdated. Or depressing. Well, maybe depressing, but that really depends on the reader.

Also, what do you mean by outdated? Thomas Mann may be dead for 60 years, but his books are most certainly not outdated. Buddenbrooks still is THE family chronicle in literature and The Magic Mountain is a masterpiece about the philosophy of disease and diseased philosophy.
Franz Kafka is probably one of the most influential writers of the early 20th century, not only in the German-speaking world.

I'd also like to recommend Max Frisch. He wrote two of my favourite novels ever, Homo Faber and Stiller, Homo Faber exploring emotions and rationality, while Stiller plays with the question of identity, a common theme of post-modern literature. Or what about Dürrenmatt? Grass? Böll?
Germany had one of the most vibrant literary communities after the war. Really, I could probably go on about this for pages, but I guess if you ever want to talk about literature in German, drop me a PM and I'd be happy to talk to you about it all day.

[Yora]

There are certainly some interesting subjects, but everything older than 60 years would not be a good example to train your contemporary German.

I respect that you enjoy the writers you listed, but those of which I have heard of are pretty much exactly that kind of depressing literature I was thinking of.
Stuckrad-Barre, Frisch, Grass: Three very good examples of what I think is wrong with german literature.
But yeah, if people enjoy that. Feel free to do so.

[LCR]

Would you care to elaborate? I can't seem to find all that many similarities between Stuckrad-Barre, Frisch and Grass.
What's wrong with German literature? And what do you believe is done better elsewhere?

[Partysan]

Wow, Moers as translation? I might have to pick up one of these just to see how they did it. I utterly adore this man's books bu I can't imagine how they would translate his shenanigans. It would be like translating Pratchett (and his books are translated quite horribly).

And, native speaker and skype-user here.

I second rereading a known book in German. By the way, famously badly written books sometimes have translations that are actually better regarding language than the originals...

[Yora]

There are entire TV shows that are only good in the translation.

[Mauve Shirt]

We spent 3 weeks on Kafka this semester. Allow me to sum up almost every Kafka story for you:

Spoiler

Show

It's the father's fault.

[Yora]

Also: Kafka is completely insane.
And exactly what I mean by depressing. I think everything ends with "nobody loves you and you die!" And I think almost all german writers who wanted to become "respectable and famous writers" in the last 60 years wanted to hop up on that band wagon.

I might have been a bit unfair, and their are certainly some writers who write to entertain and because they have fun writing, who are also german citizens. But they are not what the important german literature critics would consider "literature". At best trivial-literature, but it's obvious how that term really means pseudo-literature.

Yes, there are certainly good writers who write very interesting and good books in german. But stay away from the "most important and famous writers of contemporary german literature". Those are the guys you have to read in school, that everyone in the room hates, except the teacher, and that have made millions of young germans believe that German classes and literature analysis is all one big hoax.
Oh how I hate them!