Never played, always DMed.

[Welknair]

Hey all. I'm a long-time DM (Relatively) but I have only once played a tabletop RPG. And that hardly counts as it was a one-shot on National Game Day (Also the only time I've played 4e). My current campaign has been running for a little over a year now, and things have been going pretty smoothly. Though I'm not sure exactly how I'm doing, given that I've never played. My players say that they're having fun, and I'm working decently hard, but I don't have squat to compare myself to. Then this is where the people rush in and say "Well if you're having fun and you're players are having fun, don't worry about it". I'm almost certain that that's the reply I'll get, and as such I am reconsidering posting this thread at all. Hm, I guess I should add in an opening for further discussion:

Do you think that player experience helps your ability to DM?

[The Rose Dragon]

Depends on the specific experiences as a player. Bad experiences often help more than good experiences, though. It is often easier to know what not to do, rather than the opposite.

[bloodtide]

In general, no.

A player and a DM are two different. The player just sits back and knows the game rules. But a DM runs the whole game, rules and all.

For example, a good DM needs to be aware of each of the players and be able to tell if they are happy and having fun. That is not a skill that you can 'learn' by being a player.

[Lord Vukodlak]

My group rotates each week. Two or Three people will have an active campaign at a given time and we switch off, that way everyone gets to play.

[dsmiles]

I'll answer with a resounding: "YES!"

Experienced players know what they want out of the game, and are generally more willing to work for it. The longer a player plays the game, the smaller that sense of entitlement gets. One of my players has been playing for as long as I have. (Let's just say that it's a very long time, and leave it there, for now. ) Of the others, two have been playing for more than four years, one has been playing for two, and one is pretty new. The ones that have been playing longer put more effort into character development and generally enjoy the game more than the newer ones. They have this sense of entitlement that really irritates me. It's almost like they think that everything they want as players should be handed to them, regardless of the rules of the game and the campaign setting.

[Lord Loss]

Playing totally changed my understanding of the game and made me a much, much stronger DM. After sessions, I would think back on what I enjoyed about the session, what the other players enjoyed, how descriptions/plots made me react, etc. Playing made me a far far stronger DM, I even wrote a few things down, eventually planning to post them online. I'll post em later on, as soon as I can dig them up.

The thing about DMing is you,re never on the receiving end of the cool bosses, the surprising plot twists, etc. Seeing how things feel when used against you helps you use them in the future, plus learning from another DM also helps, they'll often do cool stuff you never would have though of.

[dsmiles]

The thing about DMing is you,re never on the receiving end of the ... surprising plot twists, etc.

Really? I've been gaming with my group for 7 years, and they still manage to surprise me. It's AWESOME!

[some guy]

I was a player 1,5 years before I started DM'ing and I'm really glad that I was. It helps if you've have some kind of nestor, who can show the ropes and whatnot. This can result in game-similarities, which may or may not be a bad thing. I think the DM styles of the DM that spawned me, the DM I spawned and myself are quite comparible.

I have never played Call of Cthulhu, I have only GM'ed it. As a result I have made more mistakes as a beginning Call of Cthulhu Keeper (with 5 years of tabletop rpg experience) than I have made as a beginning Dungeons and Dragons Dungeon Master (with 1,5 years of tabletop rpg experience). If I had a CoC mentor, I would probably know better what works in CoC.

So yeah, I think player experience helps the ability to DM.

[Kylarra]

I think that player experience helps, so you can get an idea of how things appear on that side of the screen as well as how players think.

[Lord Loss]

Really? I've been gaming with my group for 7 years, and they still manage to surprise me. It's AWESOME!

True that. Players manage to surprise with their actions (Barbarians hanging from the talons of a harpy while holding onto the newly crowned king as the harpy drags him away from the elven court, it's a long story) but I meant the story arcs you create. You don't get the same feeling of surprise/mystery when they unveil the killer/BBEG/whatever, because you knew it was the bartender's son all along.

[dsmiles]

True that. Players manage to surprise with their actions (Barbarians hanging from the talons of a harpy while holding onto the newly crowned king as the harpy drags him away from the elven court, it's a long story) but I meant the story arcs you create. You don't get the same feeling of surprise/mystery when they unveil the killer/BBEG/whatever, because you knew it was the bartender's son all along.

I was referring to the story arcs my players create by misinterpreting the information they get. Usually it's 10x better than what I came up with.

[Gamer Girl]

There are a couple parts to being a Dm:

1.Knowing the Rules--somewhat obvious.
2.Knowing the Game--again obvious.
3.Storytelling--the DM is the author and editor of the story and plot.
4.Entertainment--the DM is the master of the fun for everyone.
5.Counseling--the DM watches and reads the players and helps them.


In general, as a player, you will only learn the first too. The other three, while you might see in a game, you won't see all of it, so it won't be much help in learning anything. For example, if player 1 comes to the DM with a character problem..you as a player won't know that. You just suddenly see a change in the game with no obvious reason.

Though, also in general, it can be helpful to see how other groups and Dms play the game..both the good and the bad.

[Rixx]

The player experience helps the DM a lot. My regular DM got a lot better after he played for a while.

He used to have a really adversarial mindset, and felt like he wasn't doing his job if we felt like badasses and won too often. Now that he's played more and enjoyed feeling like a badass, he doesn't get so frustrated on the occasion that we curbstomp his encounters.

[Fax Celestis]

The player experience helps the DM a lot. My regular DM got a lot better after he played for a while.

He used to have a really adversarial mindset, and felt like he wasn't doing his job if we felt like badasses and won too often. Now that he's played more and enjoyed feeling like a badass, he doesn't get so frustrated on the occasion that we curbstomp his encounters.

Yeah. A DM needs to be aware that it is his job to lose by the skin of his teeth repeatedly.

[Sipex]

I've played a bit recently having only played one session before this and I will say that playing definitely helps my DMing. I get to experience the game from the player view and figure out what is actually entertaining. I've actually seen a technique in play that I usually DM with and thought "Wow, on the player end, this technique is really boring".

[Tyndmyr]

Do you think that player experience helps your ability to DM?

Yes, without question. I feel the best situation for anyone is to at least occasionally be on both sides of the screen.

It gives you a vastly better perspective on things.

[tahu88810]

I've always felt that story-telling experience and some modicum of pseudo-diplomatic experience more than player experience is what helps one to become a better DM. Certainly player experience allows a DM to better gauge how a player might react to a situation, which greatly facilitates planning, but over-all it has never really felt strictly necessary and I think that if a DM can accurately read their player's and player-character's personalities regardless they should be able to do just as well as any DM with player experience.

Edits in italics.

[big teej]

-begins sleep deprived advice-

for starters, an answer very similar to what you expected.

if it's been a year, and your players keep showing up from week to week, you must be doing at least tollerably well (else they would have called you on it, or started their own group, or staged a coup by now)

anyways, I would say that player experience helps massively.

I have learned more about how (not) to DM as a player than anything else.
... okay, maybe these forums.

but you get my point

if nothing else, eventually you're going to start to burn out, and your dming will start to suffer, having a rotation is an awesome idea, keeps everybody fresh, and gives you more time to prep for each session.

also, in the event that your players do the inevitable (and wreck your campaign) you've got time to recover, or somethign to do while you make a new one.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Hey all. I'm a long-time DM (Relatively) but I have only once played a tabletop RPG. And that hardly counts as it was a one-shot on National Game Day (Also the only time I've played 4e). My current campaign has been running for a little over a year now, and things have been going pretty smoothly. Though I'm not sure exactly how I'm doing, given that I've never played. My players say that they're having fun, and I'm working decently hard, but I don't have squat to compare myself to. Then this is where the people rush in and say "Well if you're having fun and you're players are having fun, don't worry about it". I'm almost certain that that's the reply I'll get, and as such I am reconsidering posting this thread at all. Hm, I guess I should add in an opening for further discussion:

Do you think that player experience helps your ability to DM?

Well, good work on having a Happy Table! And a desire for self-improvement.

Anyhow, occasionally being a Player does help your DMing but rarely as much as doing more DMing. Personally, I look at playing as "cool down" time to keep me from burning out as a DM. However, there are some things you can learn:

(1) How The Other Half Lives
Looking at the game from the other side of the DM screen is a good thing to do, on occasion. For 4e in particular, seeing how Players visualize & experience the battlefield helped me plan better Encounters as a DM.

(2) Learning From the Masters
If you're lucky, you'll be able to play under a DM who is better than you at something. Recognizing when a DM is doing something awesome and figuring out how to work it into your repertoire is, IMHO, one of the most dramatic ways to improve as a DM. I have been fortunate enough to play under two superior DMs who advanced my DMing tremendously even though I had been DMing for over a decade previous. Even playing under mediocre or beginner DMs have had flashes of insight that I am able to incorporate into my own games.