Noble Title Tinkering

[afroakuma]

Hello all! Welcome to afro's Random Question Time!

In European nobility, the general titles of the nobility are from highest to lowest:

{table=head]Title|Equivalents
Duke|Herzog
Marquis|Marquess, Margrave, Markgraf
Count|Earl, Graf
Viscount|
Baron|Freiherr[/table]

I've adopted that general system for a game I'm running, but have hit a snag: I have a Marquisate (the territory of a Marquis) which is supposed to be currently lacking a holder, as the previous Marquis died without issue in a tragic demonic-possession-related accident. This means that the highest remaining noble rank in the province would be Count, and one such Count is currently charged with wardenship over the whole territory until a new Marquis is appointed (it'll probably be him).

Trouble is, other Counts don't have much reason to give him precedence, so he needs a title above theirs. Annnnd there isn't one... at least, not one that isn't the Marquisate itself.

So, I've come up with a few suggestions for said title, which I'd like opinions on; or, if they all suck, I'd like your suggestion for what could go in its place.

Archcount
Count Incumbent
Count Sovereign
Count Steward
Earl
Falsine (made up; interpreted from the German Pfalzgraf)
Landgrave
Landis (modified from the above)
March-Chamberlain
March-Steward
Seigneur
Surcount (made up; same vein as viscount)
Thane

[Legend]

You could use the term "petit marquis," which would seem to fit your temporary marquis quite well. It has the advantage of being a real thing. (Of course, it has the disadvantage of having been coined as a kind of swipe at the French nobility for having so many marquis that ones of less status were dubbed that. )

Or you could dub him a Count Royal, designating that he is still a count but has special favor from the king.

Of your choices, I like Archcount, which I think best communicates what you're after.

[Cespenar]

I'd normally be picky about a "what sounds better" kind of question such as this, but all of your choices sound perfectly fine and thematically fitting to me. I somehow get the feeling that you know your Stuff(tm).

Still, in the expense of coming off as a jerk, I dislike Archcount slightly more than the others. They already use that prefix with Duke, so I'd expect something different and/or more mouthful for the Count.

If I had to make a choice, I'd narrow down the choice to the "Count X"s, though.

[Serpentine]

I'd give him a second, temporary, title in addition to his Count title, one that acknowledges that he's a placeholder for the legitimate Marquis, rather than an elevation of his usual status. So a count acting as, say... a Marquis-Steward, or Regent Marquis, or Guardian Marquis, or Marquis-Legate, or Marquis-Proxy or Marquis Terrenus (=temporary) or... something like that.

[Figgin of Chaos]

I only have one name for a man who sips wine in a castle while his people toil amongst the pigs: Tyrant.

Down with the aristocracy! Long live the House of Commoners!

[Gnoman]

Marquis Apparent would fit well, I think. He would still have "Count of whoknowswhere" in his formal title, but the acting Marquisate should overwrite his Count status until the situation is resolved, with him either becoming a Marquis or going back to being a Count.

[Cespenar]

I'd give him a second, temporary, title in addition to his Count title, one that acknowledges that he's a placeholder for the legitimate Marquis, rather than an elevation of his usual status. So a count acting as, say... a Marquis-Steward, or Regent Marquis, or Guardian Marquis, or Marquis-Legate, or Marquis-Proxy or Marquis Terrenus (=temporary) or... something like that.

That's a sound idea as well. You can't know you're really an aristocrat if they don't go at least a couple minutes naming your titles.

[Aux-Ash]

In european peerage a marquis (which is especially clear in the german name: margraf) is actually just a count with additional military responsibility that rules over a march, a border province (hence the additional military responsibility).
So if this is indeed based on irl peerage then having a count rule would be perfectly ordinary. He'll be upgraded to marquis once he is fully invested. It's the same amount of responsibility really (slightly less prestige though).

Changing title shouldn't really be neccessary. He's still count of his fief but also the lord-steward of the marquisate. And that is indeed what he should be refered to. He is the lord-steward (a noble employed to oversee the lands) until the new marquis dismisses him from that role.
A new title would imply that the two provinces are joined into one, not that he rules two separate ones. If his fiefs remain separate then he should have two titles, not a new one.

[Serpentine]

Marquis Apparent would fit well, I think.

That's the sort of term I was grasping at.

[afroakuma]

The Markgraf thing is why I thought Landgrave was a good pick, as it's "Count of the Land" rather than "Count of the Mark." I don't like "Marquis Apparent" as it implies he's definitely due for the promotion, and in this case being Marquis is a definite social upgrade, since you do get the military responsibilities (and since this province is a March rather than a Duchy). Case in point: one young noble wheedled a Marquis' title out of his father, though he rules only a countship, and since everyone knows it he gets trashed by anyone of high enough rank to get away with it. Presuming to the higher rank would be most unwise, hence why most of my concepts are either a variation of Count or else a new title entirely.

[Serpentine]

But he's not an upstart Count, he's a temporary Marquis.

[Eldan]

Well, having dozens of titles wasn't too uncommon in some eras of history. So, he could really just be Count X, Steward of Y, and so on.

A few more obscure German ones:

Truchsess. They used that as the translation of Denethor's title in Lord of the Rings. Nominally, leader of the King's household, with command over the king's table. (Not sure what the last part means, exactly).

Seneschall: highest ranking clerk at the court. Similar, really. Marschall was originally used for mostly the same thing, before it became a military title. Etymology says it's from March - Horse and Schalk - servant. Seneschall similarly from Senex, the oldest. Though both are probably more civilian than noble titles.

[Ormur]

I agree, instead of making up something between a count and a marquis give him a temporary title, like "regent marquis" or "steward".

[Aux-Ash]

The noble title describes what duties one have. A baron is responsible for a barony, a count for a county and so on.

By assuming a new title, this noble of yours would be doing something far worse than usurping the title of marquise. He'd be redefing his feudal contract.

Nobles aren't born to be counts just because, they're born to nobility because their ancestors made that part of their feudal contract. That his liege would recognice that the fief passed to his children. The fief is still technically only "on loan" from the king.

The count is a count that is currently taking care of a marquisate. Therefore he should only be a count and perhaps lord-steward or regent-marquise. If he would be creating a new title for himself he's doing two things:
One is that he's trying to redefine his feudal contract to his liege.
The second is that he suggest that this is indeed a permanent state of affairs but he's too afraid to usurp the title of marquise.

The former risks making the local duke (or if he's really unlucky, the king) rather angry with him. Since only they have the right to redistribute their lands and the titles associated with them. The latter indicates that he's weak... something he really don't appear to be with vassals that don't respect him.

[afroakuma]

But he's not an upstart Count, he's a temporary Marquis.

He is, yes, but taking the title would still be like a military captain calling himself "General-in-Waiting" because there was no general directly above him. There are other Marquisses, as well as other Counts, who would not take kindly to someone claiming that rank and stature in any regard.

Given that the March of Limberry is a full non-ducal province, its current leader is directly answerable to the King. As other Counts would challenge or ignore the authority of a Count placed at their head who was not given the full duties and privileges of the Marquis, the King has ceded Lord Rochester permission to take on a style indicative of his temporal stewardship of the province.

[Gnoman]

If, for example, the captain commanding the 22nd infantry is killed, then the senior lieutanant takes everything of captain's rank except pay. He might not have the actual title of captain, but he is co-equal with all other captains until a new captain is brought in. His offical title, however, is "Commander, 22nd infantry" until that time. That's in a modern, stratified system where rank and duty are seperated. In a nobility situation, rank and duty are generally not stratified. Thus, by performing the duties and responsibilities of a Marquis, he is given the de facto rank of that station. Now, he would not want to assume the formal rank lest he offend his erstwhile superiors, but it would be demeaning in all respects (especially to the other Marquises) to hold that position without a change in title.

[Fhaolan]

How likely will it be that they have a specific name for a temporary Marquis? How often does that occur?

Under normal circumstances it would be more common for a Duke or Prince to take take the additional responsibilities of the Marquis than it would be to temporarily promote a Count. Especially since in most fuedal cultures once you have that promotion, temporary or not, it is very difficult for the people to let go of it aftwards. In this case, even after the Marquis was designated, that Count would likely expect to retain some prestige from being temporary Marquis.

In which case, what you are likely to have is either a completely new title made by the King specifically for this situation, or a term that is commonly applied to *any* rank to mean a temporary (or honorary) promotion that does not directly interfere with the rankings.

The term 'Regent' is usually used for someone who is ruling a country temporarily because the King/Queen is underage, debilitated, or missing. However, the term was used occasionally for lesser noble titles as well. 'Steward' was a very official non-noble title for someone who manages a household. A more elaborate form being 'Seneschal'.

I like that last one 'Count Seneschal'

Just as a note, found this page. It has more equivalencies:

http://www.nobility-royalty.com/id84.htm

Re: Eldan: My understanding is, the terms Trucher and Butler have blended together and now-a-days only Butler survives. I believe Trucher came from the same root as 'trencher', meaning plate, where Butler came from the same root as 'bottle', meaning cup. So a butler is specifically in charge of serving the wine and drink, and trucher is specifically in charge of serving the food.

[afroakuma]

How likely will it be that they have a specific name for a temporary Marquis? How often does that occur?

Not often, but since the last Marquis died twice about a hundred years ago, there has been a non-hereditary succession of "filler" Counts who split the duties of the March with the Church of St. Ajora. The Church's privileges in that province as a result have seen them exert political pressure to keep a new Marquis from being named.

Under normal circumstances it would be more common for a Duke or Prince to take take the additional responsibilities of the Marquis than it would be to temporarily promote a Count.

A Duke has tried; he's been rebuffed several times. A Prince-Royal, though... there's something interesting in that, but it seems the Church would probably have a hard time getting the lion's share of the power with a Prince running the show.

Especially since in most fuedal cultures once you have that promotion, temporary or not, it is very difficult for the people to let go of it aftwards.

Thankfully, in this case, it's not hereditary; the stewardship cycled between Lords Kent, Rochester and Canterbury, with Kent having dropped in the last forty years.

In this case, even after the Marquis was designated, that Count would likely expect to retain some prestige from being temporary Marquis.

Which, if not the Marquisate itself, would likely be a grant of further lands.

In which case, what you are likely to have is either a completely new title made by the King specifically for this situation, or a term that is commonly applied to *any* rank to mean a temporary (or honorary) promotion that does not directly interfere with the rankings.

Wouldn't mind the latter.

[FlyingScanian]

In my personal, and possibly humble, opinion, I would say that either Count Steward or March-Steward sound best from the listed alternatives, or possibly Royal Count/ Marquisate Count, indicating that while he's a count, there exist certain "extras", tied either to the king (if the king is the one giving him the regency) or tied directly to the Marquisate. Of course, there is also the trick with adding extra titles, say "Royal Count Lord XX, March-Steward of YY"...

says I, with no experience or knowledge of nobility...

[Serpentine]

He is, yes, but taking the title would still be like a military captain calling himself "General-in-Waiting" because there was no general directly above him. There are other Marquisses, as well as other Counts, who would not take kindly to someone claiming that rank and stature in any regard.

I deliberately avoided the "in-waiting" because of those sorts of connotations. It's not that he's a would-be marquis, but rather is a placeholder marquis. I think if he is to be taking up the role of marquis without the actual rank temporarily, his title should acknowledge that, in addition to his title of Count.
I like Seneschal and Steward, either alone or paired with Marquis - as Seneshal-Marquis or Steward-Marquis or Markseneshal or whatever.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Seneschall: highest ranking clerk at the court. Similar, really. Marschall was originally used for mostly the same thing, before it became a military title. Etymology says it's from March - Horse and Schalk - servant. Seneschall similarly from Senex, the oldest. Though both are probably more civilian than noble titles.

I'd second this. A knighthood added to give some level of nobility as well as the.office make him the man who gets things done when there was a marquis. Now he is the defacto until the formalities are settled. And nobody would question it really as it would be fairly common way for day to day functions to be handled.