How do you keep evil / chaotic PCs to WBL?

[Talakeal]

One thing I have never been able to deal with is how to keep the economy running in a group that has one or more evil or chaotic neutral PCs, as they always find immoral ways to get extra loot, and if I try and keep them within the wealth by level guide lines I either need to hand wave stuff into nonsense or throw out civilized currency entirely and simply resort to a setting where no one will deal with the PCs and they need to steal and kill to survive.

Here are some examples of things players have done in my games, to give you an idea what I am talking about:

An item I want but can't afford is in a shop, I will kill the merchant and take it.
I will mind control a merchant into giving me goods for free.
I will bluff a merchant into buying my worthless items for a fortune as I tell him they are actually artifacts and beat his sense motive by 25.
I rescue the princess, and then tell the king that he better double his reward if he wants to get his daughter back alive.
Rob a bank.
Bad guys stole treasure X that we are hired to get back, we will kill the bad guys and keep it.
Killing friendly quest givers and NPCs and looting them, preferably just after they have given us the location of the bad guy (and his loot).
Hiring powerful henchmen or talking good NPCs into helping them, and then letting them die / get badly wounded in battle and take their stuff.
Sell captured enemies into slavery.

I know, I know, I have messed up players. But none of this stuff is terribly out of character for a chaotic neutral thief, or if we are running an evil game to begin with, but it still messess up all notions of WBL and economy in the game.

[imperialspectre]

Any shop that deals in high-level magic items would necessarily have high-level magical protections, and a shop that isn't in that kind of business wouldn't have the resources to just buy an "artifact". Your problem has more to do with world-building than system failure.

[dsmiles]

Well, if they're robbing banks and dominating shopkeepers, the law should handle it. Throw 'em in jail, freeze their assets, confiscate stolen goods...there's a ton of ways to deal with them.

[RandomLunatic]

One way is to take the value of their illicit gains and just quietly dock it from their next quest reward. This will unfortunately tend to lead to a wealth skew towards your underhanded players, especially if they are not telling anybody about this (IC).

But as imperialspectre said, most of these specific problems can solved just by applying realistic consequnces.

An item I want but can't afford is in a shop, I will kill the merchant and take it.
I will mind control a merchant into giving me goods for free.

Merchants who trade in magic items will have-get ready for it-access to magic items. Which includes things making oneself resistant to being stabbed or magicked. Also, if they get caught, expect the law to get involved.

I will bluff a merchant into buying my worthless items for a fortune as I tell him they are actually artifacts and beat his sense motive by 25.

No matter how good the bluff check, they are going to at least spring for a Detect Magic, if not a full Ananlyze Deweomer or Legend Lore. If some guy came int oyour store and offered to sell you a Picasso for $50,000, wouldn't you have it authenticated first?

Rob a bank.

Is going to have guards. Basically, make it an adventure/encounter, and the amount in the safe is their reward for successful completion.

I rescue the princess, and then tell the king that he better double his reward if he wants to get his daughter back alive.

Bad guys stole treasure X that we are hired to get back, we will kill the bad guys and keep it.

Original patron hires another ground of murderous hobos adventurers to kill the PCs and return the Princess/treasure.

Killing friendly quest givers and NPCs and looting them, preferably just after they have given us the location of the bad guy (and his loot).
Hiring powerful henchmen or talking good NPCs into helping them, and then letting them die / get badly wounded in battle and take their stuff.

When word gets around about how they treat thier "allies", the PCs are going to have a hard time replacing the ones they kill.

[Lapak]

Yeah, it boils down to being willing to confront them with overwhelming force. Unless they have already conquered the world and have omnipotent godlike power (in which case it's much too late to worry about WBL) the rest of the world will react to their actions. Cities and kingdoms have access to resources that will put them down hard and permanently if they go around behaving his way, for example. These things will put them on any major polities' scry-and-die list if done frequently, and they probably won't last a week:

An item I want but can't afford is in a shop, I will kill the merchant and take it.
I will mind control a merchant into giving me goods for free.
I will bluff a merchant into buying my worthless items for a fortune as I tell him they are actually artifacts and beat his sense motive by 25.
I rescue the princess, and then tell the king that he better double his reward if he wants to get his daughter back alive.
Rob a bank.

Some things that don't annoy governments annoy people. And most people have friends. Some of them have powerful friends, and the more wealth they have the more likely that is. So betraying people in ways on this part of the list will potentially draw down the ire of large organizations of angry people. Also, as mentioned, getting a reputation for doing this WILL make some of them impossible very quickly:

Bad guys stole treasure X that we are hired to get back, we will kill the bad guys and keep it.
Killing friendly quest givers and NPCs and looting them, preferably just after they have given us the location of the bad guy (and his loot).
Hiring powerful henchmen or talking good NPCs into helping them, and then letting them die / get badly wounded in battle and take their stuff.

Of all the things you mentioned, only

Sell captured enemies into slavery.

is one they might get away with, and that only in societies that don't frown on it, and it's the least profitable of the bunch to boot.

Doing any of this quietly and occasionally will be fine. Doing it constantly and without a care in the world will have consequences, and if you want them to restrain themselves you have to make that clear AND be willing to deliver on the consequences if they don't.

[Talakeal]

Ok, couple of problems.

First, if I send the law after them, they will cry killer GM unless it is a level appropriate encounter, in which case I am just encouraging their behavior by sending them simple chunks of loot and xp in the form of guards.

Second, even if I dock their WBL from the next dungeon, it doesnt matter because they dont care because they don't actually need the gold to buy things, they will just find someone who would sell them the item if they had the gold and take the item by force.

Third, even if the high end shop keepers are immune to mind control or strong enough to resist violece (which also gets cries of killer DM) they can still rob a dozen lower end shop keepers and then trade their stolen goods to the high end shop keepers who I cant possibly justify having that sort of protection.

Fourth, have you seen the examples of bluffs that beat sense motive by +20? Convincing someone that they don't need to identify the +25 sword of a thousand truths because they can trust a guy like you who has never told a lie in his life is pretty run of the mill, and besides they are letting the sword go for a steal at only half a million gold pieces, you don't want that offer to pass them by!

[sharona]

What they said.

Where are the *consequences* of this group's actions?

Paging Inigo Montoya to the red phone. Paging Inigo Montoya to the red phone ...

(only in this case Inigo is already grown-up, a full Mage-Captain in His Majesty's Guard when he is called back home for Dad's funeral ... and he's got lots of accrued vacation time plus a bunch of buddies who've got his back, nevermind access to the royal Intelligence service)

Why would anyone hire a party that has been shown to steal the object of a quest for themselves, or hold it for additional ransom?

Why would anyone buy from a party that the Merchant's Guild grapevine has BOLOs on for selling worthless goods and doing SOME sort of magic -- we don't know what, but after they leave your shop something's always missing! (One moment, I'll get back to my rant as soon as I talk to this guy about getting me some protection and setting up a sting ...) And if the party isn't identifiable, well, just the fact that several other merchants have been hit with a specific scam/tactic lately means the remainder will be extra-careful to take precautions.

Why would anyone hire on or help out a party when previous helpers have never returned? Not every NPC is a spineless easily-intimidated wimp (some merely pretend to be, for their own purposes).

Parties can usually get away with this here and there. But even Evil parties, just like evil overlords, need to be mindful of the enemies they make.

There are soooo many ways this could be used for future encounters over several sessions, perhaps.

[dsmiles]

Alternatively, after this campaign comes to an early close, ask one of them to DM and make sure everybody acts the same way towards them. Do this one at a time, until everybody learns that they are ruining the fun. The DM is supposed to be having fun, too.

[Morty]

First, if I send the law after them, they will cry killer GM unless it is a level appropriate encounter, in which case I am just encouraging their behavior by sending them simple chunks of loot and xp in the form of guards.

At which point you should tell them that if they go around using violence and deceit to solve all of their problems, they should expect be hit with overwhelming force that might well be above their level.

[sharona]

Ok, couple of problems.

First, if I send the law after them, they will cry killer GM unless it is a level appropriate encounter, in which case I am just encouraging their behavior by sending them simple chunks of loot and xp in the form of guards.

If the guards are simple chunks of loot and XP, then it's not a level-appropriate encounter.

[sharona]

Third, even if the high end shop keepers are immune to mind control or strong enough to resist violece (which also gets cries of killer DM) they can still rob a dozen lower end shop keepers and then trade their stolen goods to the high end shop keepers who I cant possibly justify having that sort of protection.

Wait - why is it unreasonable for shopkeepers to find ways to defend themselves against a Killer Party?

Once the effects wear off, and the shopkeeper's found out he's been bilked, and perhaps is smart enough to know there was magical influence involved ... and he's still expected to be a sitting duck and furthermore not warn his fellow merchants, in town or in the Guild if there is one?

And I'm all for level-IN-appropriate encounters if there are ways they can avoid pure combat. Heck, half the stuff I write is scaled combat-wise for a far more powerful group, specifically to get them to look for options other than outright-attack ... or fight *smart* instead of *stats*

[TroubleBrewing]

So they cry killer DM. So what?

Your players clearly do not fear you. They have no sense of in-game consequences.

Talk to them outside of the game. Tell them that you don't enjoy their behavior, and that you won't put up with it. Either they mature in playstyle, or they get to venture through the Forest Where Everything Is A High-level Druid.

[Gorgondantess]

Tell me this: how in the hell are your merchants with access to a whole slew of powerful magical items so easy to kill and take by force? You should be making your world more realistic. If it's so easy to just kill a merchant and take all their vast amounts of wealth, then everybody would be doing it. And if everybody was doing it, then only the toughest and best merchants would survive. Tough enough that they can take on the PCs. And don't forget, the merchant knows his inventory a lot better than the PCs, and likely has full ranks in UMD- so, have him pull out a few scrolls of limited wish that he kept for just such an occasion.
And as for crying killer DM- well, that's kindof your fault. You shouldn't have let the game turn into a CE monty haul. Before you let your characters get so out of control, just think about it for a moment, and you should've come to similar conclusions as the above. Then they wouldn't be expecting to get away with all of this all the time.

[Lappy9000]

I run horrendously Chaotic Evil campaigns all the time, almost to the point where I have difficulty handling parties where the PC's are not bloodthirsty violent and cunning villain protagonists

We never really have any problems with this because they know that their actions will have realistic consequences in the world (also, I don't use the Wealth By Level table, 'cause I think 300gp/encounter at 1st level is insane).

However, I will almost never say "No, you can't do that" to the actions of PC's, excluding in-party violence. The example I give to everyone is, yes, you can kill the king in his throne room, if you're prepared to fight his elite guards to escape. If you're clever enough to pull it off (maybe by convincing the guards to join you in advance?), awesome! But it certainly won't be easy.

Your groups calling out of "killer GM" just sounds like an excuse to do whatever the Nine Hells they want without consequences for their actions, which should absolutely not stand. Maybe show them once or twice what a true sadistic killer GM is to put them in their place (in a non-canon romp, naturally).

You don't need to make NPC's more powerful than the PC's. Use the power of trickery and paranoia to your advantage. It sounds to me that you just need to be tougher on your group (but not too tough. Make sure everyone's still having fun).

So they cry killer DM. So what?

Your players clearly do not fear you. They have no sense of in-game consequences.

Talk to them outside of the game. Tell them that you don't enjoy their behavior, and that you won't put up with it. Either they mature in playstyle, or they get to venture through the Forest Where Everything Is A High-level Druid.

Basically, this. Great advice!

[Provengreil]

Ok, couple of problems.

First, if I send the law after them, they will cry killer GM unless it is a level appropriate encounter, in which case I am just encouraging their behavior by sending them simple chunks of loot and xp in the form of guards.

Second, even if I dock their WBL from the next dungeon, it doesnt matter because they dont care because they don't actually need the gold to buy things, they will just find someone who would sell them the item if they had the gold and take the item by force.

Third, even if the high end shop keepers are immune to mind control or strong enough to resist violece (which also gets cries of killer DM) they can still rob a dozen lower end shop keepers and then trade their stolen goods to the high end shop keepers who I cant possibly justify having that sort of protection.

Fourth, have you seen the examples of bluffs that beat sense motive by +20? Convincing someone that they don't need to identify the +25 sword of a thousand truths because they can trust a guy like you who has never told a lie in his life is pretty run of the mill, and besides they are letting the sword go for a steal at only half a million gold pieces, you don't want that offer to pass them by!

even a basic appraise check will give them absolutely massive bonuses to sense motive, assuming a decent success. now take a gander at what quite a lot of merchants will have as a skill.

example: this (ordinary diamond) is a gem of wishing!
(one appraise check later, complete with detect magic) no it isn't.

[Ravens_cry]

A living, breathing world should have consequences. People are going to stop wanting to deal with them, after all, they have a reputation of theft, and those who do will be likely charge a surcharge for it, criminal, shady types likely, maybe even double. Or more.
As for robbing a bank, any bank that deal in adventurer worthy amounts is going to have excellent security, both mundane and magical. After all, if a bank can not convince its customers that the money is safer with the bank than locked up in their homes, the bank goes out of business. A living breathing world also should have a sense of history. The PC are by no means the first people to try robbing a bank and a highly successful bank will have experience.
The same with merchants who deal in magic items and other things of high value. The stupid ones who carries around items worth thousands of gold, or more, without security were weeded out long ago.
And if they still keep it up, bounty hunters, guards, and others are going to be on the look out for them. You robbed that merchant? Turns out it was a front for a powerful thieves guild. The people don't go to the guards with their troubles, oh no, they have other, more definite, means of exacting their kind of justice.

[erikun]

First, if I send the law after them, they will cry killer GM unless it is a level appropriate encounter, in which case I am just encouraging their behavior by sending them simple chunks of loot and xp in the form of guards.

Make it an adventure, then. Give them their level-appropriate encounter. Have them find wanted posters with a price on their head. Make them realize that, if they show their face anywhere inside Kingdom of X, they'll be getting level-appropriate encounters until they leave or burn the town down. If they want to play Chaotic Evil Stupid, then why are the Lawful Good governments playing nice with them?

Second, even if I dock their WBL from the next dungeon, it doesnt matter because they dont care because they don't actually need the gold to buy things, they will just find someone who would sell them the item if they had the gold and take the item by force.

Third, even if the high end shop keepers are immune to mind control or strong enough to resist violece (which also gets cries of killer DM) they can still rob a dozen lower end shop keepers and then trade their stolen goods to the high end shop keepers who I cant possibly justify having that sort of protection.

At some point, the merchants with the low- to mid-level magical items will all either be dead or have sold their merchandise to the high-level merchants. That's kind of how economics works; it culls the weak and preserves the strong. Nobody in their right mind are going to start selling +3 swords in such a situation unless they have the highest grade protections.

Also, the merchants that the party can deal with will be quite familiar with them at that point. As in, running a store with several gated Solars and wearing a full set of +5 (or higher) equipment. At that point, if the players want to start a fight, then there is no need to restrain things to a "level-appropriate encounter".

[EDIT]
Oh, and there is little reason for such a merchant not to leverage or blackmail the party. You want a +3 sword? That'll be ten times standard market value. Don't like the offer? Well, thank you for killing all my competition; you won't be able to buy your equipment anywhere else now.

Fourth, have you seen the examples of bluffs that beat sense motive by +20? Convincing someone that they don't need to identify the +25 sword of a thousand truths because they can trust a guy like you who has never told a lie in his life is pretty run of the mill, and besides they are letting the sword go for a steal at only half a million gold pieces, you don't want that offer to pass them by!

If somebody tells me that they're willing to sell an exceptionally valuable sword for half a million gold pieces, my first response is suspicion. Why not sell it to the reputable dealer for full price?

Remember that a bluff check makes the target believe you are being honest; it does not completely change the target's mind. It also lasts for only one round, meaning that even with an infinitely high check, they will begin to doubt you six seconds after the offer.

And finally, how many merchants are going to have half a million gold pieces lying around their shop? Especially with murdering outlaws killing merchants throughout the kingdom? Any intelligent merchant will keep such money somewhere else, or will be working for our high-end, magic-buffed merchant who is immune to such trickery.

[Mastikator]

An item I want but can't afford is in a shop, I will kill the merchant and take it.
I will mind control a merchant into giving me goods for free.
I will bluff a merchant into buying my worthless items for a fortune as I tell him they are actually artifacts and beat his sense motive by 25.

You now have a price on your head for the same or higher value of that you've stolen plus the damage you've caused to people. Assassins will soon kill you.

I rescue the princess, and then tell the king that he better double his reward if he wants to get his daughter back alive.

The king pays. Then banishes you from his kingdom and offers money for anyone who brings your head on a stake.

Rob a bank.

City guards stab you to death.

Bad guys stole treasure X that we are hired to get back, we will kill the bad guys and keep it.

Next adventuring group is now hired to kill you and get the treasure you stole back.

Killing friendly quest givers and NPCs and looting them, preferably just after they have given us the location of the bad guy (and his loot).

Same as the first one.

Hiring powerful henchmen or talking good NPCs into helping them, and then letting them die / get badly wounded in battle and take their stuff.

They get blackballed from ALL other henchmen and nobody will trust them.

Sell captured enemies into slavery.

Get a "wanted dead or alive" poster on every tavern door in the place as a known bandit and slavery



It's a mistake to assume that the PC's are the most powerful entities in the world. Or that the PC's won't get a very bad and well deserved reputation for their actions, and that NPC's won't respond appropriately.

[Odin the Ignoble]

If the party is doing this they need "Killer DM" stuff. There actions should have consequences equal to the gravity of the action.

If you screw over the King, expect him to screw you over harder. And he's got armies/court magicians/a kingdom's treasury all on hand to do it with.

Anyone selling Magic Items probably has to deal with people like your party all the time. Meaning that he'd probably be able to take on your entire party, a couple of times a day if he needed too. And that'd be without resorting to calling in connections.

I'd just take a rough total of the cost of everything in his shop, and find his level via WBL. If he's selling the party a 7,500 gp item, he's probably got at least 75,000 in his shop, not to mention the money he'd spend on stuff other then inventory. He'd easily be a 12th or hire level character, with a whole lot of contingencies to protect him from evil/chaotic customers.

If the merchant weren't tough enough/smart enough to protect his business, he'd probably be out of business long before the characters got there.

If a GM creates a realistic reaction to a PC's action and the players cry "Killer DM" then the characters are most likely "Stupid Evil".

[mathemagician]

Take a page from Harry Potter, use a port-key.

Get some higher powers of law involved. Tempt them with an item they want, and then make it The next item they steal without running a unique, disenchant-anti-theft-device transports them to an interdimensional court, where they stand trial for their past transgressions. Make an adventure out of being imprisoned and trying to regain what gear is legitimately theirs.

Alternatively, it could just be a trap by the merchants guild.

Also, yes, send high level adventurers after them. Give them warning first, of course, a bounty on their heads that starts at a moderate price. Give them some freebies, some really low level adventurers for them to feel all strong and badass, except now they've earned a higher bounty, and perhaps vengeance of a high level adventurer related to one of those slaughtered. After a few chances at redemption, if the players continue, let them know that they are pushing the line. Make sure they realize that they are essentially walking up to a dragon, and giving it a swift kick, and not expecting to be slain for it. If they decide their characters are sufficiently arrogant to continue, kill them with high level adventurers after the bounty. Make sure they realize that it is their actions that are driving this line of plot, not yours.

[Absol197]

Basically what everybody else has said: there are no realistic consequences in your game world, so the players have come to expect to be able to do the things they are doing with no consequences. The DMG has a whole section on this, about altering the world based on the existence of things like magic, monsters, and other elements of the D&D world.

It is a fact in our world as well as in the D&D world: people who sell valuable stuff (jewelry, electronics, magic items, etc.) have to deal with thieves constantly. They will have protections in place. In neither world are the merchants necessarily the best to defend their own property, but they do have means to defend themselves, nontheless.
In our world, not only is there the police, who will respond to any thefts (and murders) and go to great lengths to bring the purpetrators to justice, but also they hire out to private security, people who have been trained to deal with things like this.

In a D&D-verse, the merchants will have mid- to high-level warriors on the premises any time there are customers in the shop. They most likely won't keep their merchandise (especially their most valuable stuff) in the front of the shop. It will be in the back. Most of their stuff sill be trapped in some fashion, and when it's not being shown to a customer, some kind of magical effects will be used to protect it. The merchants will also likely have paid local wizard's guilds or wizard's colleges for additional magical support against thieves. They'll likely have spells like alarm or something simple set up, or a sending stone, and then high-level wizards teleport in the moment the players start something.
As for using Bluff to sell someone snake oil, consider the chart on the Bluff skill, here: modifiers to Bluff skill. If the Bluff is "way out there, almost too impossible to consider," like the example you gave, you take a -20 penalty to your Bluff check (or a +20 to your Sense Motive, one or the other). Making impossible lies usually doesn't work. And as others said, it's not a suggestion spell. even if the merchant believes them, they're very likely to say, "Wow, that's great! Just let me confirm it real quick..."

[tribble]

Why does it need to be so complicated? Just stop playing with ten-year olds.

[Grendus]

Don't forget, there are plenty of nasty ways to take down a higher level character with lower level abilities. Many of these are available to fifth level or lower characters, which wouldn't be uncommon in medium sized villages. If the PC's are causing a ruckus, maybe the captain of the guard (5th level warblade), head of the local chapter of the mages guild (5th level wizard), and the high priest at the local temple (5th level cleric) round up some mercenaries or less psychotic hobos to help them bring the PC's down. Don't forget, Tuckers Kobolds were only CR 1/3, but their tactics made them terrifying enemies.

Casters:
1. Sunder a spellcaster's spell component pouch/holy symbol.
2. Cast Silence on a bolt and have your best sniper shoot the wizard with it.
3. Archers with readied actions to shoot if he tries to cast. First level sorcerers with Magic Missile prepared are even better, as almost nothing protects against force damage.
4. Protection from Evil would hedge out enchantment spells and summons.
5. Stack some concentration debuffs. For lower level characters, deafness (20% chance of failure), entangled (DC 15 concentration check), threatened squares (enlarged guardsman with a spiked chain, DC 15 concentration check or eat an attack of opportunity) are easy. Damage over time abilities work well if you can find them, unless they have a high concentration modifier there's still the chance of a bad roll.
6. If they have a signature spell, you can have someone get ready to counterspell. Yes, it's a waste of an action, but if you have the action advantage using your round to lock the wizard down could be a good use.
7. Don't forget, wizards have crap fortitude saves. Early fortitude based save or dies are great. Poisons are great too, though make sure it makes legal sense for them to be using them.

Fighters:
1. Grease. Most fighter classes don't get balance as a class skill, he'll be flat footed and vulnerable to a bunch of rogue archers. A few first level spells and even first and second level rogues can hit through his armor.
2. Ray of Enfeeblement offers no save. 1d6+2 strength penalty, and an Empowered Spellshard is cheap.
3. Ray of Exhaustion can strip him of full attack options, but offers a fortitude save. Slow, however, offers a will save which will probably be lower.
4. A goliath or half giant tripper build can completely lock a fighter type down.
5. One word - shatter.
6. A Net or Tanglefoot Bag only requires a touch attack, but halves their movement rate.
7. Entangle sucks. Escape Artist isn't usually a class skill for melee types, and even a raging barbarian has trouble with a DC 20 strength check. Even if they make it, they move half speed.
8. Web is even worse. Unless they're carrying flaming weapons, expect them to be glued in place.


And this is all available at level 5. If we're talking torqued off king, he probably has a high priest or high wizard at his command, or at least a more morally inclined group of murderous hobos he can send after them. More morally ambiguous enemies may send assassins, guerrilla tactics with Death Attacks could be nasty. DC 14 is easy-ish to pass, but anyone dies to a natural 1. Anger an assassins guild...

[Ravens_cry]

Why does it need to be so complicated? Just stop playing with ten-year olds.

Well, yes, that is an option, but any game that goes in for verisimilitude and sandboxing should have these features, lurking in the background as part of living, breathing world.

[Lappy9000]

Also, about the Bluff thing, I have a little trick for that (but use it sparingly).

So the 8th level bard with a +60 modifier to Bluff tries to convince the king of Countryrealm that he is, in fact, a piece of toast. The king naturally fails his Sense Motive, and honestly believes that the bard thinks the king is a piece of toast. He then calls his guard on the raving lunatic in his court.

[Grendus]

For bluff, I always went with the "some things are just ridiculous" approach. No, the king is not going to believe that he's really you and he should give you the crown. No, the shopkeeper is not going to believe that that dingy gray rock you picked up outside is actually a +25 halfling skiprock of infinite wishes. Some things people just can't be convinced of.

[HappyBlanket]

Also, about the Bluff thing, I have a little trick for that (but use it sparingly).

So the 8th level bard with a +60 modifier to Bluff tries to convince the king of Countryrealm that he is, in fact, a piece of toast. The king naturally fails his Sense Motive, and honestly believes that the bard thinks the king is a piece of toast. He then calls his guard on the raving lunatic in his court.

Oh god. Can I say "yes please" enough?

edit: Oh yeah, forgot to add. Throw a few Kolyaruts around if you're working with the broken deal, so long as that's level appropriate.

[Traab]

Your guard attack doesnt have to be a tpk to be a winner. These guards will be attacking your group in the middle of main street at high noon. Word is going to get around town that this party is full of dangerous thieves that will rob and/or kill you for your merchandise. I know if I were a purveyor of magical goods, id invest in some powerful bodyguards after seeing that go down.

So, now noone will sell to the team in that city, and every merchant is heavily guarded by some npc goon squad that is conveniently more powerful than they are. Congrats, you managed to ripoff one or two stores and make some money. Too bad you cant do anything else in this town as everyone is ready to kill you to protect themselves.

[gomanfox]

It really sounds like the problem is the OP is too afraid to punish the players for stupid actions. If you have a party of first level PCs that get an audience with the king of a country for a quest or something, and your players are stupid enough to attempt to kill him, you don't throw a level-appropriate encounter at the PCs and reward them with the king's treasury. It would be unrealistic for the ruler of a country to not be protected by well-trained and well-equipped guards, just because the encounter needs to be winnable by the PCs. The DMG even suggests that some portion of your encounters should be extremely difficult (if not impossible) to survive without retreat.

If your players complain that it's unfair, tell them to think about the consequences of their actions before doing things like that. I'm sure with enough overpowering encounters thrown at them when they rob shops (that should be well-defended) or when they make demands or threaten powerful people, they'll eventually learn they need to stop doing it... or find smarter ways of doing it at least.

Of course, it would also help to talk to your players outside of the game and let them know they should expect stronger consequences for their actions, because you're wanting a more realistic world. How you describe your players, it sounds like they could probably get away with killing the high priest of a god in the presence of that deity without worrying about punishment because a god smiting them would be "unfair." If you're afraid of showing your players realistic consequences, you may just want to find a new group of people to run a game for.

[Arbane]

At which point you should tell them that if they go around using violence and deceit to solve all of their problems, they should expect be hit with overwhelming force that might well be above their level.

Wait, I'm confused. Violence and deceit AREN'T supposed to be the solution to all problems?