[D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More

[Cieyrin]

I like the cut of your jib. These will probably be making it in tomorrow. I may even put back the .25 points for the things that had it before to work with this (since if I put in an inverse of these as penalties, there'd be a lot more .25 options to choose from, which makes me a little more comfortable with it. I just really didn't like having the .25 slots but then only having like one or two things to use when it came up.

Looks like you forgot Open Lock, which is also Dex-based. I'd maybe just include that with Sleight of Hand, as it seems weird that enhancing manual dexterity would benefit one but not the other, since they're dependent on both. I'd say the same for Balance and Tumble & Hide and Move Silently, though that last one is a tad less necessary, I think.

[TuggyNE]

Looks like you forgot Open Lock, which is also Dex-based. I'd maybe just include that with Sleight of Hand, as it seems weird that enhancing manual dexterity would benefit one but not the other, since they're dependent on both. I'd say the same for Balance and Tumble & Hide and Move Silently, though that last one is a tad less necessary, I think.

Open Lock doesn't normally have an Armor Check Penalty, though. (For whatever reason.) Perhaps that should be remedied as well...?

[Cieyrin]

Open Lock doesn't normally have an Armor Check Penalty, though. (For whatever reason.) Perhaps that should be remedied as well...?

So it doesn't, probably due to the fact that it's only the gloves affecting you for the most part, instead of the entire armor. Slipped my mind, apparently.

[Seerow]

Yeah when I took the list of skills that had a penalty I just went to the SRD and copy/pasted.

I just updated the ACP rules to reflect what I was talking about before (ACP from armor applies to dex, not str. ACP incurred from encumbrance still applies to str checks), and put in the new properties to remove ACP from one specific skill. Also put the combat maneuvers and elemental resists back to .25 per 1 rather than .5 per 2.


Also considering a series of custom new armors, both because it sounds fun, and to make the armor section a little less tiny relative to the weapons section. Things along the lines of Mechanus Gear (really heavy, sturdy, armor. Possibly Exceptional quality), Elven Battle Plate, Thief Armor, Arctic Rainment, Desert Plate, etc.

If anyone has some suggestions or requests for new armors to be statted up, this would be the time.

[Noctis Vigil]

Crystal Armor, though I forget what book it's from; it's heavy armor made of crystal that grows on the wearer, you make a Str check to break out of it at night and the next morning when you get up you're back in your armor. The book it was from states that it takes 8 hours to grow back.

[flabort]

Hey, got some odd numbers for you related to increasing/splitting damage dice, that go outside the 'norm', or your limits. And strange thing is, even when outside those limits like this, the prices still can't be changed for a specific number of dice (4d4 cannot get more or less expensive). You don't have to update your tables, I just thought this was cool. I mean, compare the numbers I came up with, for the values that are also on your table, with the values on your table. Their the same, except that the route to get there was radically different!
I mean, I came up with 8d2, for 7.5 slots, increased it to 8d4, for a total of 15.5 slots - which is the number of slots 8d4 had if you DON'T use d2s. Increasing up to d20s and then splitting down to d10s also yielded the same costs as the d10s normally had.
Weird.... But awesome.

Spoiler

Show

Unusual Damage Dice
A d4 may be split into two d2s. Increasing from d2s yields d4s. The total costs resulting from doing this more than once do not change!
{table=head]Base Damage Die|Previous damage Die|Slot Cost|Total Cost
2d2|1d4|0.5|0.5
2d4|2d2|2|2.5
4d2|2d4|0.5|3
4d4|4d2|4|7
8d2|4d4|.5|7.5
8d4|8d2|8|15.5
16d2|8d4|.5|16
16d4|16d2|16|32
32d2|16d4|.5|32.5[/table]
While no d14s, d16s, or d18s exist, in theory it should be able to increase through these and up to d20! Splitting can happen at d16 and d20, to d8 and d10 respectively. Simply put, splitting can happen when the result would be an even number, and increasing increases by increments of 2. There is no theoretical limit, and only what dice you actually have limit you IRL.
{table=head]Base Damage Die|Previous damage Die|Slot Cost|Total Cost
1d14|1d12|1|5
1d16|1d14|1|6
2d8|1d16|0.5|6.5
1d18|1d16|1|7
1d20|1d18|1|8
2d10|1d20|0.5|8.5
2d14|2d12|2|12.5
2d16|2d14|2|14.5
4d8|2d16|0.5|15
2d18|2d16|2|16.5
2d20|2d18|2|18.5
4d10|2d20|0.5|19
...|...|...|...
4d16|4d14|4|31
8d8|4d16|.5|31.5
16d4|8d8|.5|32
32d2|16d4|.5|32.5
...|...|...|...
4d20|4d18|4|39
1d80|1d78|1|38
2d40|1d80|.5|38.5
4d20|2d40|.5|39
...|...|...|...
1d100|1d98|1|48[/table]

As for the current armor deal, do you have armor spikes yet?
What about... Hmm, I'm coming up with nothing... Hmm. Most of the ideas I can think of would be magic armors. *Shrug* Sorry?

[Seerow]

Hey, got some odd numbers for you related to increasing/splitting damage dice, that go outside the 'norm', or your limits. And strange thing is, even when outside those limits like this, the prices still can't be changed for a specific number of dice (4d4 cannot get more or less expensive). You don't have to update your tables, I just thought this was cool. I mean, compare the numbers I came up with, for the values that are also on your table, with the values on your table. Their the same, except that the route to get there was radically different!
I mean, I came up with 8d2, for 7.5 slots, increased it to 8d4, for a total of 15.5 slots - which is the number of slots 8d4 had if you DON'T use d2s. Increasing up to d20s and then splitting down to d10s also yielded the same costs as the d10s normally had.
Weird.... But awesome.

Yeah, that was actually intended. While I didn't intend for d2s or d14s or whatever, I had to make sure whether you split the dice at d8 or d12, you come out to the same slot cost when they catch back up with each other. Glad you liked the symmetry of it. I'm sure it could lead to all sorts of fun when playing with imaginary dice.

As for the current armor deal, do you have armor spikes yet?

Yep, Armor Spikes are an armor property that costs 1 slot. The spikes themselves can't be masterworked or enchanted, but automatically gain an enhancement bonus to hit/damage equal to the enhancement bonus to AC of the armor. (So a +5 armor would also work as a +5 armor spike).

Crystal Armor, though I forget what book it's from; it's heavy armor made of crystal that grows on the wearer, you make a Str check to break out of it at night and the next morning when you get up you're back in your armor. The book it was from states that it takes 8 hours to grow back.

That sounds pretty out there. So the only way to get out of the armor is to break it, and it regrows itself when you're asleep? Does that make you count as sleeping in armor? Is there really any mechanical effect that this has or is it just cool fluff?

[Noctis Vigil]

I seem to recall it having crunch involving magic to make it worthwhile, though I'd have to actually find the statistics for it to know for sure. Gimme a bit, I'll see if I can scrounge it up.

Ha ha! Found it on the intarwebs:
Dendritic Armor

So it's pretty much a fluff armor, yeah. Still, I've always thought the concept was cool. And as long as you're on that site, take a peek at Mountain Plate and Sectioned Armor as well. Sectioned armor is especially nice, since you can take a bit to reduce it from heave to medium or light at your discretion.

[Seerow]

I'll look through that, seems to be a nice list of various splat book armors.

I do run into the problem looking at it that a lot of these armors simply just use bigger penalties as their form of 'balance' than my system actually allows for, which means adapting them will involve a little bit of creativity and/or armors with much lesser penalties than what it assumes.

Edit: Maybe an exotic armor category to go alongside tower shields is needed? Personally I'm leaning towards no, armor values are already going to be a bit higher than normal, but...

[Noctis Vigil]

I seem to recall exotic armors getting their own feat in one of the books, though I don't recall which. I certainly don't think it's a stretch to create an exotic armor ranking, and like the idea a lot, actually. That lets me as a GM throw things at my players that they don't expect, which I always support.

[Seerow]

I seem to recall exotic armors getting their own feat in one of the books, though I don't recall which. I certainly don't think it's a stretch to create an exotic armor ranking, and like the idea a lot, actually. That lets me as a GM throw things at my players that they don't expect, which I always support.

I believe it was in Races of Stone, but I could be wrong on that.

My main problem with introducing exotic armors is that it raises potential ACs even higher. As it is I'm already pretty uneasy about tower shields, and am considering making it so you can't have a custom tower shield at all, or a tower shield must always have the cover property. As it is you could theoretically make a 6 base AC shield. Introducing an exotic armor with say 3 more possible slots (1 slot and 2 higher max penalties) raises maximum armor from 12 to 15.

This can utterly destroy low level RNG, and even at high levels can prove disruptive, especially if trying to introduce anything to balance the RNG (a la my other armor topic). I'm trying to maintain roughly the same range as what core armors have, while making heavier armors better, as opposed to useless. I think I've more or less accomplished that, but it's a pretty fine line that it's already toeing pretty closely.

Maybe I could do it and have a hard cap of 10 armor? (or a soft cap where it becomes more expensive past that point). Or even a cap of 6 slots being spent on armor+max dex. (which would give a maximum max dex of 14 with 1 armor on a light armor, or a maximum armor of 9 with 0 max dex on a heavy armor).

It would make it so exotic armors or masterworked heavy armors can't get too out of hand on the RNG, and while masterworked light armors might catch up with heavy armors, they still have lower base values, so they'll always be at least slightly weaker, and even when they get as close as they can, the Heavy Armor will be similar in quality, with more random other properties.



Anyway sorry for rambling there, I was really just kind of thinking as I typed. The tl;dr is what about a hard or soft cap at 6 slots invested into armor/max dex before you have to invest in something else.


Examples:

Spoiler

Show

Masterworked Light/Medium/Heavy Armor going for max dex:
Light: 1 armor, 14 max dex, 1 slot worth of penalties
Medium: 2 armor, 13 max dex, 1.5 slots worth of penalties, 1.5 slots worth of misc other benefits.
Heavy: 3 armor, 12 max dex, 2 slots worth of penalties, 3 slots worth of misc other benefits

Actually has a nice bit of symetry. Each armor caps out with the same total, but each step up trades 1 armor for 1 max dex. So light armor remains preferred for extremely high dex characters, unless they really want particular perks.

Masterworked Light/Medium/Heavy Armor going for max armor:
Light: 7 armor, 2 max dex, 1 slot worth of penalties
Medium: 8 armor, 1 max dex, 1.5 slots worth of penalties, 1.5 slots of misc. benefits.
Heavy: 9 armor, 0 max dex, 2 slots worth of penalties, 3 slots of misc benefits.

Once again the symmetry from above shows up, with all 3 armors having the same total value, heavier armors having more armor and less max dex.


Best part of this is it wouldn't require rewriting the existing armors again, since nothing has over 6 slots. One downside is it makes Heavy armor stronger in early game, as it's the only armor that hits the cap right out of the gate, so for heavy armor masterwork is all about neat new toys and tricks, while medium and light armor are all about upgrading quality to play catch up with the heavy armor guy.

[flabort]

Mmm. I see why you didn't include d2 now: Brutal. For .5 slots, we have 2d2 damage. We take brutal to reroll ones, at the cost of (.5*2) slots, and again to reroll 2s, at the cost of (.5*2) slots again. so for 2.5 slots, we reroll EVERY roll.



Still, it doesn't ADD the rolls like the D2 crusader. So it never resolves, but it has a max 4 damage. Oh, that's silly. A D2 Crusader would still function with a Brutal d2 weapon, though, so 1.5 slots; It wouldn't need to take any cleric levels, too, so that frees up a little bit of the build. And the crusader still needs 12 levels or so of crusader before it can actually use Aura of Chaos. Before Crusader 12, though, it's still only dealing 4 damage (sure, guaranteed to be 4, but that's beside the point).



Not that there'd be much reason to use that sort of cheese if you're just having fun with freinds. It's only useful if you're having, say, a cheese-a-thon.

[Noctis Vigil]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I really don't see an armor with AC15 being gamebreaking, since you have to take a feat even as a warrior class to be able to equip it, and several feats for non-warriors. If I burn a feat to have the ability to wear it, an increase of +3AC is a good benefit.

Also, I'd like to suggest the property "racial" for weapons, which makes the weapon in question exotic for all but that race. If you make exotic armors, it could go there too. Not sure how I'd price it; probably half a slot.

[Seerow]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I really don't see an armor with AC15 being gamebreaking, since you have to take a feat even as a warrior class to be able to equip it, and several feats for non-warriors. If I burn a feat to have the ability to wear it, an increase of +3AC is a good benefit.

Also, I'd like to suggest the property "racial" for weapons, which makes the weapon in question exotic for all but that race. If you make exotic armors, it could go there too. Not sure how I'd price it; probably half a slot.

Well by itself, a 15 AC armor isn't bad at high levels. But consider a core game, a Fighter who starts with a feat in exotic armor, for a 12 AC armor, and a tower shield specially designed for 6 AC. He's now a level 1 character with a 28 AC, with one feat invested. That's bad. He has 34 AC by level 6 from investing in masterworks. This pushes him pretty much off the RNG from everything until very high levels even if you eliminate all magic bonuses to AC completely.

It takes AC from being useless to making melee attacking useless in a stroke. That's bad.

Also consider if you try to fix the RNG, and then implement this system, a la my other armor topic. There the AC is balanced assuming ~8 armor. While a really high dex can skew this a bit, it shouldn't take you more than a few points off relative to straight AC unless you have something exceptionally high relative to everyone else. The difference between the guy with a +6 dex and the guy with a +12 dex is going to be 3 AC overall. But when you can have an exotic armor with +12 dex and 9 Armor still, that AC is going to be massive, well beyond what attack bonuses can keep up with.


Basically, no matter how you tweak the system, it's really hard to account for armor values that can be as far as +10 apart and remain balanced in any form.

[Noctis Vigil]

Two feats, actually; Fighters don't start proficient in tower shields. And y'know, I've never actually seen anybody use a tower shield. Do you get them in your groups a lot? I'm honestly curious here.

I can see where you're coming from, though. I guess exotic armor wouldn't work. It still smacks of "melee doesn't get nice things" to me, but I at least understand why.

[Seerow]

Two feats, actually; Fighters don't start proficient in tower shields. And y'know, I've never actually seen anybody use a tower shield. Do you get them in your groups a lot? I'm honestly curious here.

I can see where you're coming from, though. I guess exotic armor wouldn't work. It still smacks of "melee doesn't get nice things" to me, but I at least understand why.

From the SRD: "A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields)."


So Fighters do get tower shields. Many people don't use tower shields because in 3.5 they really aren't worth it. You get an extra -10 ACP, you take -2 to all attack rolls, and while you do get 2 more AC than a heavy shield, that doesn't make up for the -2 to all attacks. To top it all off the tower shield special ability requires you to give up ALL of your attacks, and doesn't work against spells.

Here, tower shields have a significantly lower penalty, no penalty at all to hit, the same AC, and the cover ability has been drastically improved (soft cover when fighting normally, regular cover when fighting defensively, and total cover when taking full defense). So yes, I would fully expect anybody capable of using a tower shield to try to do so if they are going to use a shield at all.


This isn't so much a case of "No nice things" as "Things need to stay on the RNG for the majority of cases for the system to be remotely useful", and giving too much armor makes it so that really doesn't happen. The nice things are the relatively cheap energy resistance, improved AC against crit confirms, etc. Particularly the energy resist properties and the new skill ACP negation properties should result in some nice stuff when combined with armor specialization, even if you can't pump your AC to the stratosphere.

[Cieyrin]

Two feats, actually; Fighters don't start proficient in tower shields. And y'know, I've never actually seen anybody use a tower shield. Do you get them in your groups a lot? I'm honestly curious here.

I can see where you're coming from, though. I guess exotic armor wouldn't work. It still smacks of "melee doesn't get nice things" to me, but I at least understand why.

Uh...yes, they are proficient with tower shields. They're the only class that's supposed to be proficient without spending a feat (Crusader omission notwithstanding).

Also, Dendritic Armor appears both in the Arms and Equipment Guide and Races of Faerun, specifically for the Urdunnir, the Stone Cutter Dwarves, who don't have to break out of their Dendritic Armor b/c they can walk through stone at will, anyways. If they want out of it, they just walk out of it.

[Noctis Vigil]

Huh. Well I'll be damned, they are proficient, aren't they? All this time I thought that no base classes in the PHBs got proficiency with them without the feat. Nice to know.

Hmm. I hadn't realized just how strong you'd made tower shields. While I like the boosts you gave them, isn't all that a bit much? Soft cover when not defending at all seems a bit extreme to me...

[Seerow]

Huh. Well I'll be damned, they are proficient, aren't they? All this time I thought that no base classes in the PHBs got proficiency with them without the feat. Nice to know.

Hmm. I hadn't realized just how strong you'd made tower shields. While I like the boosts you gave them, isn't all that a bit much? Soft cover when not defending at all seems a bit extreme to me...

Soft Cover only applies a +4 bonus vs ranged attacks. It's nice, but hardly game breaking. Similarly actual cover gives you +4 to AC and +2 to reflex, but requires you to fight defensively which is -4 to attacks for +2 to AC normally (so you're now at -4 to hit for +6 to ac and 2 to reflex). You can take total defense for full cover, which is basically super LoS block, but costs all offense.

It's pretty strong, but at a cost of 3 slots, and the penalties associated with the biggest benefits, I think it's fine. If tower shields are too strong, it's because I gave them too many slots. Maybe cut penalty slots to 2, and take the extra slot out of AC, so you have 3 AC and cover, instead of 4 AC and Cover.

[NineThePuma]

What if you make speed penalties part of ACP?

Sure, that fighter can pick up some +15 AC armor, but they're going to be moving at 15ft a round.

[Seerow]

What if you make speed penalties part of ACP?

Sure, that fighter can pick up some +15 AC armor, but they're going to be moving at 15ft a round.

I very explicitly want to avoid movement penalties as an inherent part of armor. Penalizing defense by making you move slower was a bad idea from the start, and not one I intend on perpetuating.


Anyway as for changes.

Right now I'm thinking shield AC beyond 3, or Armor AC + Max Dex over 6 slots, cost triple slots. The increased cost of AC should discourage most people from grabbing it, but in the cases where it is used it shouldn't disrupt rng too much.

Also will likely introduce exotic armor with +2 slots, and +1 penalty slot over heavy armor, right now I'm thinking you can choose the base template you want to use. So an exotic light armor would have 1 armor, 2 max dex, 0 ACP, and 6 bonus slots with up to 3 penalty slots, and weigh 20lb base. An exotic heavy armor will have 3 armor, 0 Max Death, 2 ACP, and 6 bonus slots with up to 3 penalty slots, and weigh 60lbs base.

[Noctis Vigil]

Hmm. I don't think it should be an inherent part of armor, but I can see adding a movement penalty and a running speed penalty as options for armor to open new slots. You could call it Bulky armor, where it restricts how fast you can move in exchange for stronger defense.

[Seerow]

Hmm. I don't think it should be an inherent part of armor, but I can see adding a movement penalty and a running speed penalty as options for armor to open new slots. You could call it Bulky armor, where it restricts how fast you can move in exchange for stronger defense.

I wouldn't mind that as much, it could probably be a decent penalty.

I generally see Increased Weight as the bulky option. You want armor that's really bulky and restricts movement, increase weight a lot. As mentioned you can get around 190 lbs on heavy armor, and with an extra penalty slot, Exotic Armor can get up to 330 lbs. That's gonna be bulky and restrict movement for the huge vast majority of people. But if on the offchance the Incredible Hulk gets his hands on the armor, he'll be okay because to him 300 lbs is about as light as a feather.

I guess there is room for something that is just straight up says "reduce movement" but I can't see where someone would actively choose to put that on their armor over the other penalties available.

[Noctis Vigil]

Hmm, that depends. A 5' decrease in speed or -1ACP seems a pretty even trade if you're a skill monkey, especially if you aren't worried about rushing but want to move without a ton of bulk.

Also, the mental image of the Hulk in a size-changing plated cod piece has scarred me for life. Thank you, Seerow. Thank you. *shudder*

[Seerow]

Hmm, that depends. A 5' decrease in speed or -1ACP seems a pretty even trade if you're a skill monkey, especially if you aren't worried about rushing but want to move without a ton of bulk.

Typically the skill monkey is someone who would rather have that extra mobility to avoid getting hit in the first place than someone who's willing to trade mobility for extra armor.

That said I did add "Bulky" as a penalty slot option, giving a full slot. I personally still doubt it's worth it, but if people want to use it, it's there.

Also, the mental image of the Hulk in a size-changing plated cod piece has scarred me for life. Thank you, Seerow. Thank you. *shudder*

I live to serve.




Also, put in the softcap on armor+max dex, and exotic armor rules. Have yet to actually implement any exotic armors, but will probably do that within the next day or so.

[Noctis Vigil]

Suggested ideas for additional penalties to add armor slots:

Flexible: This armor isn't hard, it's easy to move in, but not quite as protective. Armor made like this offers one less AC to bludgeoning damage than it does to piercing or slashing damage. (cannot be done with plate armors)
Woven: This armor was made by weaving strips of the material together, making it slightly less protective than normal. Armor made like this offers one less AC to piercing damage than it does to bludgeoning or slashing damage.

[Cieyrin]

Suggested ideas for additional penalties to add armor slots:

Flexible: This armor isn't hard, it's easy to move in, but not quite as protective. Armor made like this offers one less AC to bludgeoning damage than it does to piercing or slashing damage. (cannot be done with plate armors)
Woven: This armor was made by weaving strips of the material together, making it slightly less protective than normal. Armor made like this offers one less AC to piercing damage than it does to bludgeoning or slashing damage.

And suddenly Morningstars become more awesome.

[Seerow]

Been a while since I updated here. Part of it is being busy, part is just not being quite sure what to do with it.


I did decide to scrap exotic armors. I am still leaving the 6 slot softcap for now, but that may get removed later simply by virtue of me thinking it's too confusing for a player wanting to know if he can increase his light armor or not. I could probably make a more simplified way of explaining it from that perspective. ie something like light armor can spend X slots on more armor/dex before paying extra, medium armor can spend Y slots on more armor/dex before paying extra. Heavy armor can't spend any without paying extra. It works out mostly the same, but somewhat weaker for any armors that are built by default with properties that aren't AC and Max Dex.

I also added a couple new penalties that provide penalties to move silently/hide. Thinking about adding them for the other skills as well, but once again would like help with names to do so.

Suggested ideas for additional penalties to add armor slots:

Flexible: This armor isn't hard, it's easy to move in, but not quite as protective. Armor made like this offers one less AC to bludgeoning damage than it does to piercing or slashing damage. (cannot be done with plate armors)
Woven: This armor was made by weaving strips of the material together, making it slightly less protective than normal. Armor made like this offers one less AC to piercing damage than it does to bludgeoning or slashing damage.

I kind of like this, but would rather have three different types, either each type weak to 1, or each type weak to 2. As written, it makes people inclined to favor bludgeoning weapons just because. Alternatively this could also be a property, working in reverse, giving a bonus point or two of AC against a specific type of armor.

[AugustNights]

Last year I dived through all the D&D books I could get my hands on, and fished out every weapon I could find in order to compile, and calibrate for my own gaming pleasures, and I've found many have properties that are not listed here.
Recently I've been adapting your weapon system to match my own house-rules and the like, and have been writing up some new properties. Would you be interested in seeing these (when I finish)?
I will most likely do the same with armor once I get the weapon stuff done.

[Seerow]

Last year I dived through all the D&D books I could get my hands on, and fished out every weapon I could find in order to compile, and calibrate for my own gaming pleasures, and I've found many have properties that are not listed here.
Recently I've been adapting your weapon system to match my own house-rules and the like, and have been writing up some new properties. Would you be interested in seeing these (when I finish)?
I will most likely do the same with armor once I get the weapon stuff done.

Sure. It's always good to see someone else's work, worst case scenario there's nothing I care to use but it's there for others to see. Best case there's some ideas that can be worked back in.