I think I've been tricked...

[Totally Guy]

I was planning on GMing a game. I suggested 5 different options: Mouse Guard, Lacuna, Apocalypse World, D&D 3.5 and Pendragon.

But one player wasn't happy with any of them as he'd have to learn a new system.

So he lent me Basic Role Playing to learn.


I was reading it... then I realised... Why am I learning a new system to GM with for the benefit of one player who doesn't want to learn a new system? I was already learning Pendragon and now that's on the back burner.

[danzibr]

Hmm, well, I wouldn't say you've been tricked. How many players are there? Not to be mean, but with 5 different options I'd tell them to take the initiative and learn one.

[Eldan]

Ask the other players what they want. I'd say it's probably your best bet. If they all would have to learn a new system anyway, ask them which they think sounds most interesting to them. If the majority doesn't want to try that one, forget it.

[Totally Guy]

There are two players. One said yes to each suggestion. The other said no to them all. I didn't even suggest Burning Wheel because he'd already warned me that he wouldn't play it...

The "No" player GMs Shadowrun. It looks like we have one session left before his campaign ends.

[Eldan]

So, short version, he's being a ****?

[valadil]

I was reading it... then I realised... Why am I learning a new system to GM with for the benefit of one player who doesn't want to learn a new system?

Because you enjoy learning new systems and even if this new one doesn't pan out, you might learn something from it? I don't think there's anything wrong with reading through the system, but if it doesn't grab your interest, don't feel obliged to run it.

[Totally Guy]

So, short version, he's being a ****?

It certainly didn't seem like it at the time. After we talked about it I ended up apologising to him for only knowing how the GM "Story Games" as he calls them. Then I thanked him for letting me borrow his BRP book.

Maybe he did a Charm Person on me or something...

Because you enjoy learning new systems and even if this new one doesn't pan out, you might learn something from it?

I was already learning Pendragon. That book was written with love!

[Shadowknight12]

Tell the player that you think that since you're going to be doing great effort to run the game (DMing isn't easy and all that), the least he can do is make your job a tiny bit easier and pick a goshdarn system. One that doesn't add to your workload.

[Nachtritter]

I was planning on GMing a game. I suggested 5 different options: Mouse Guard, Lacuna, Apocalypse World, D&D 3.5 and Pendragon.

But one player wasn't happy with any of them as he'd have to learn a new system.

So he lent me Basic Role Playing to learn.


I was reading it... then I realised... Why am I learning a new system to GM with for the benefit of one player who doesn't want to learn a new system? I was already learning Pendragon and now that's on the back burner.

You gave him five potential systems and he wasn't happy with any of them? Tell him to stop being so damned picky. Those are the systems you've created scenarios for, those are the storylines you've sunk time and effort into, and those are the offers the DM is allowing. If you change everything for one player, you're not a DM, you're a floormat.

[Totally Guy]

Those are the systems you've created scenarios for, those are the storylines you've sunk time and effort into

No I haven't. Not yet. I've got maybe 4 to 6 weeks. Loads of time.

[Eldan]

Huh. That guy's good. Seriously.


Also, he doesn't want you to GM "story games"? Sure you want to DM for him if his tastes are so different?

[Titanium Fox]

No I haven't. Not yet. I've got maybe 4 to 6 weeks. Loads of time.

Yes, but now a solid portion of that four to six weeks is being sunk into learning a new system rather than planning your campain.

[Mastikator]

You're the GM, he doesn't need to learn the system.
Pick one game you want and help them create characters. If none of them want to play anything then suggest a new GM who wants to play something everything wants to play. As a GM you're already putting ten times as much time and energy into the game as the players, you shouldn't have to take their crap.

If this doesn't work then you have a dysfunctional group of energy eaters, leave the group and find good players.
The quality of the players matters too!

[obliged_salmon]

You're not even supposed to learn the rules in Lacuna. I'd suggest hiring a squad of ninjas to incapacitate and blindfold your players, bring them into your "secret headquarters," wherever that may be, and then start the Lacuna chargen process. It'd be sweet!

...Beware the spidermen...

[Totally Guy]

You're not even supposed to learn the rules in Lacuna. I'd suggest hiring a squad of ninjas to incapacitate and blindfold your players, bring them into your "secret headquarters," wherever that may be, and then start the Lacuna chargen process. It'd be sweet!

...Beware the spidermen...

I introduced a group to Lacuna the other week. I did the entire Preamble to the session as Control (and I was dressed as a secret agent). It wasn't until I got into a weird "third-person GMing" that I dropped it.

Me as GM: You lie on the slab and you're fitted with the wires that I have attached to you.

- That line blew my mind and I didn't even realise I'd done it until I'd said it.

Edit: And I found a metronome online which played constantly at the players heartrates.

[Jay R]

Did you have veto over the game system when he started running Shadowrun? Has he ever learned a new system to run at the requrest of another player?

I once had a friend who would never come visit at my house, because "it's too far to drive". His solution was that I should go visit at his house. Of course, it's just as far from my house to his as from his house to mine. It never seemed to sink in that by asking me to do what he had already rejected as too onerous, he was making it clear that his time was considered more important than my time, and he expected me to agree.

If learning a new system is too much work for him, it should be too much work for you, too -- particularly since the DM has to learn the rules much more completely than the players do.

You asked what system to run, out of five choices. He refused all of your options, and insisted on a sixth. That wasn't presented as an option. It's like asking if he wants Fireball or Lightning for a third level spell, and he insisted on Wish.

Furthermore, it requires much more work on your part. "Would you like me to paint your wizard or your fighter?" "No, you should paint my orc army."

But you already said yes. So your options are to go with it, to preserve the peace, or to go back and say, "I'm not prepared to learn a game and prepare a world. I offered to prepare a world in a system I already know, and that's all I'll do. I was willing to let you choose which of the games I already know, but neither of you would. So I'm preparing to run a game of Pendragon. Who'll play it?"

I guess the real question is which is more trouble and annoyance, learning the new system, or going back and arguing with your friend. Since you know your learning curve and your friend, and we don't, we can't make that choice for you.

But I hope I've made the choice you have to make a little clearer.

[Earthwalker]

Firstly I would suggest wearing mirrored shades when next talking to this player, there is a chance this will reflect his hypno beams. Also try to avoid looking directly into his eyes.

Other usful advice depending on what system you are currently living in.

If you feel more like a DnD character take your AoO chance when he begins casting suggestion.

For Shadowrun the best bet is to just try to get some kind of will power booster to resist the effects.

On a slightly different note.

Isn't Pendragon similar to BRP anyway or am I thinking something else ?

One other suggestion is running Shadowrun for him. You both know that systems and he seems to like it ?

[Totally Guy]

So your options are to go with it, to preserve the peace, or to go back and say, "I'm not prepared to learn a game and prepare a world. I offered to prepare a world in a system I already know, and that's all I'll do. I was willing to let you choose which of the games I already know, but neither of you would. So I'm preparing to run a game of Pendragon. Who'll play it?"

Thanks dude. That's good advice.

[DabblerWizard]

I'd just set a limit with that player and say, "I've given you five different options for systems. If you want to play in my group, you'll need to pick one of those and pronto, so that I can start working on the game."

Alternately, Totally Guy, you could just pick a system yourself.

[Jude_H]

Didn't you offer to play Pendragon? I thought they were the same system.

[Daimbert]

Did you have veto over the game system when he started running Shadowrun? Has he ever learned a new system to run at the requrest of another player?

I agree with this part, kinda ...

I once had a friend who would never come visit at my house, because "it's too far to drive". His solution was that I should go visit at his house. Of course, it's just as far from my house to his as from his house to mine. It never seemed to sink in that by asking me to do what he had already rejected as too onerous, he was making it clear that his time was considered more important than my time, and he expected me to agree.

... but not this, necessarily.

I don't know about your specific situation, but there are cases where that shouldn't be the implication because of other factors. Such as his having, say, an older car that burns a lot more gas than yours, meaning that it costs him more to go to your place than it would for you, meaning that the cost for you would be an acceptable range but the cost of him isn't. Or it being the case that he doesn't like to drive or is even bad at it, while you're a good driver who enjoys it. In any of these cases, it would be reasonable to say that it wouldn't be too far for you but it would be for him without any of that time stuff you mentioned.

Another example: I habitually walk places with a round trip of 2+ hours, which is well outside the norm. If someone said that to get to my place was too far a walk, it would still be reasonable for them even if it was well within my range of not too far to walk.

If learning a new system is too much work for him, it should be too much work for you, too -- particularly since the DM has to learn the rules much more completely than the players do.

But if he loves learning new systems and his friend hates to do that, it's not as onerous a task for him to learn the new system which changes things. I think that most examples like that of this friend get a person "tricked" just because they don't -- for whatever reason -- find the task their being asked to do to be as much of a pain as it is for the other person, so they don't immediately fire back with something like "I don't want to learn a new system either".

[snips]

But you already said yes. So your options are to go with it, to preserve the peace, or to go back and say, "I'm not prepared to learn a game and prepare a world. I offered to prepare a world in a system I already know, and that's all I'll do. I was willing to let you choose which of the games I already know, but neither of you would. So I'm preparing to run a game of Pendragon. Who'll play it?"

I guess the real question is which is more trouble and annoyance, learning the new system, or going back and arguing with your friend. Since you know your learning curve and your friend, and we don't, we can't make that choice for you.

But I hope I've made the choice you have to make a little clearer.

I'm just adding that the best bet is to ask yourself if it really is a problem for you, and if it is to make THAT clear, and see what the path of least resistance for everyone is.

[Steward]

Be careful! You might end up washing his car "because, well, you didn't really have anything to do that afternoon" and paying off his credit card "because you had all this extra cash and, hey, he's a good guy, right?"

Your friend sounds extremely (perhaps even supernaturally) persuasive and charismatic; before gaming with him again, purchase some holy water or magic symbols and leave them near the play area. If he flinches in their presence or seems drained and exhausted, then you know there's something wrong and you should end the session immediately. If he seems fine, then -- well, you probably weren't tricked per se but he was probably taking advantage of your accomodating good nature.

[Doc Roc]

It certainly didn't seem like it at the time. After we talked about it I ended up apologising to him for only knowing how the GM "Story Games" as he calls them. Then I thanked him for letting me borrow his BRP book.

Maybe he did a Charm Person on me or something...



I was already learning Pendragon. That book was written with love!

BRP will let you play The Laundry, which is a Good Thing. That said, honestly, it's a not-so-hot system that can lead to abrupt if hilarious fatalities. It DOES play very quickly, and the core of the game is quite a simple one. It probably won't take you more than a few days to read up on it. Then you should pick up a copy of The Laundry, and go to town.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Didn't you offer to play Pendragon? I thought they were the same system.

No, not at all, although there are enough similarities that conversion is easy enough. BRP is the same system as Call of Cthulhu, and some of the specific rules from BRP are very handy in Pendragon.

[Name_Here]

... but not this, necessarily.

I don't know about your specific situation, but there are cases where that shouldn't be the implication because of other factors. Such as his having, say, an older car that burns a lot more gas than yours, meaning that it costs him more to go to your place than it would for you, meaning that the cost for you would be an acceptable range but the cost of him isn't. Or it being the case that he doesn't like to drive or is even bad at it, while you're a good driver who enjoys it. In any of these cases, it would be reasonable to say that it wouldn't be too far for you but it would be for him without any of that time stuff you mentioned.

No absolutely disagree with everything here. Asking somebody to do what you refuse to do is just plain rude no matter the situation. Unless they are married or share finances the guy is still asking his friend to spend money while refusing to spend any of his own. The not liking/ liking traveling argument is equally flawed due to the fact that it isn't Jay volunteering to travel down to meet his friend it's the friend insisting that Jay travel down to see him imposing greatly on a friend.

It'd be like us going out for drinks and me refusing to contribute any money to the tab because it is too expensive, I get all the benefits of hanging out with a friend drinking and don't have to spend a dime. Or me asking you to help me move and while you're struggling trying to get my sleeper sofa down the stairs that are just a little too small for it I'm reading my magazine cause you're soooo much better at moving furniture than I am.

Though another interpretation of what his friend was saying could be that he just doesn't consider you that good of a friend.

Another example: I habitually walk places with a round trip of 2+ hours, which is well outside the norm. If someone said that to get to my place was too far a walk, it would still be reasonable for them even if it was well within my range of not too far to walk.

But let's say there was a distance you were unwilling to walk or drive that really was in your mind just to long a trip. Would you ever dream of saying to your friend that doesn't have a job/ has a newer car/ drives really fast/ whatever reason you could think of that if he wants to see you he'll have to drive to you?

No of course not saying that is classless and rude.

[Solaris]

It's been my experience that learning a new system and GMing for it tends to end badly, especially if the players already know the system. Just sayin'.

[Sir Swindle89]

After we talked about it I ended up apologising to him for only knowing how the GM "Story Games" as he calls them.

What is te deffinition of theis "Story Game" scat?

Just looking at the systems
3.5=rules heavy, no real stock world
mouse gaurd= really wierd stock world
Shadow run=rules heavy, developed stock world

The other ones sound rules heavy but i'm suprisingly not familiar with them.

You seemed to present a pretty varied set of games it seems silly that he can't pick at least one to try.