leveling for different races

[hydroplatypus]

OK from a balance standpoint I understand why, but in fluff how do I as a DM justify long-lived races not all being fairly high levels (at least the relevant members likely to see combat). In any PC party the PCs level at a fairly similar rate, meaning that after an (In Character) 20 year campaign (just making up arbitrary #s) the Pcs are all at level 20. For a human this is not a problem as this represents a significant portion of his lifetime devoted to killing stuff. For an elf it represents a very small portion of his/her life. Shouldn't any elf who has a PC class, or even the warrior class be a decent level due to the time that they have had to hone their skills? This leads to a very high level elven society where humans are low level. Is there any way to justify why this is not the case?

[dsmiles]

Well, the way I see it, Elves (in particular) have more time on their hands than they know what to do with. They might not pursue a singular goal (leveling up) with much enthusiasm. They may run off to try their hand at being a painter for a while, or a poet, or a farmer, or whatever catches their fancy at the time. Living an extremely long time could be tedious. Especially of you constantly pursue the same goal. Every. Day. For. Centuries.

Make sense?

[hydroplatypus]

Thanks. Now I feel like an idiot for not thinking of this. It seems so obvious in retrospect.

[dsmiles]

Keep in mind, other races are different. Specifically Dwarves. They have the will to single-mindedly pursue a goal. I usually give them higher levels than humans in the same professions. It all depends on the temperament of the race in question.

I only used Elves because you did.

Gnomes maintain average levels, even though they're longer-lived than humans out of laziness; they just want to sit around playing tricks all day.

Half-Elves are on par with dwarves when it comes to leveling my NPCs. They have the longer life span with the drives and motivations of humans. Thus, higher-leveled NPCs.

It all depends on how that particular campaign setting defines the general characteristics of the individual races.

[DukeofDellot]

A funny idea on this line is the Pokemon level syndrome. Where the PCs begin their adventure in an area where everyone is low level, then as they continue their adventures the NPCs (even the not so important ones) progressively become more powerful.

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Say they start out helping a Goblin village from being attacked by an insane cult that decided that they were innately Evil. The insane cultists and short-lived Goblins typically would have lower levels (though there would be some higher ups for various reasons... such as boss fights... I mean... such the champions warriors of the Goblin tribe and the most dedicated lunatics of the cult).

Then they continue to fight in a war between two nations that both designate a specific land as their property, even though there are indigenous people living there (which are caught in the crossfire). The militaristic aspect will lead to a "logical" higher level of the troops the PCs will be interacting with.

Then the Elf story... whatever that may be, which would give the next level range.

Then the Dwarves dug too far down and found the underworld! Mid to high levels, everywhere (using the reasoning already mentioned).

Then the rescue mission down in that underworld where the PCs find themselves trapped in the politics of the Devils (which often leads to combat) and everyone but the PCs and the Damned have lots of Racial Hitdice and Level Adjustments alongside possible class levels that help flesh out your important PCs.

So even if, as a DM, you have trouble giving low levels to long-lived races... that doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.

[Knaight]

Judging by the D&D experience tables, from memory.

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It takes about 5 even fights to level up once. (This isn't CR appropriate, this is an even fight)

If one discludes situations where both characters in a fight get killed, the chance of going up one level after even fights is 1/32.

There aren't many high level characters, because most people who constantly get in fights die, and the ones who don't don't get to be high level.

[Garwain]

There aren't many high level characters, because most people who constantly get in fights die, and the ones who don't don't get to be high level.
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This.
Also because death is a lot more permanent for NPCs than for PCs.

[Honest Tiefling]

A lack of talent, or a lack of challenge, or a lack of opportunity. Maybe Bob the elven painter just isn't very good at what he does. Some people just aren't terribly visual or good with using their hands. Maybe Bob lacks a bit of visual perceptiveness, represented by his low Wisdom score. Maybe he's just an average dude with far lesser stats then the PCs.

Maybe Bob is a part of a small village. They don't have a lot in the way of fancy luxuries, but have plenty of food, fire and the basic comforts. He doesn't have a lot of materials to waste on paint, so he's a bit limited in what he can use. His tribe also might not produce a lot for expensive and rare dyes, such as rare seashells, or semiprecious stones. He might be really good at using leaf dyes to decorate baskets, but painting a fresco for the largest cathedral in the world is very much beyond him.

Maybe a tribe of nomadic elves don't have a use for paintings. Maybe a race of more city dwelling elves don't see a lot of reason to smear brightly colored mud on the perfectly pretty tree in an unnaturally and tasteless fashion. In this case, Bob has little way to learn from others, and little way to improve from feedback. If it is something Bob's people just doesn't do, no one is going to be able to teach nor challenge him. I assume at least some elves are in smaller fringe settlements in many, if not many settings.

Maybe Steve the Elven warrior is rubbish at his job not just due to being more average then the PCs, but Steve mainly fights off rats. He doesn't really get an opportunity to fight, and no one in his tribe can teach him to be better. He is self taught, but poorly. The fact that he is unlikely to be able to afford plate armor and a well made weapon ensures that he has to exercise caution more then pursue challenging battles that don't squeak.

Thanks to elves being a bit on the frail side, Steve's people favor being nomads and tend to run away from their problems then fight. And even if he did fight, he's an NPC. He's likely to die, as I imagine would be a common fate for NPC guards, warriors, mercenaries and adventurers.

Maybe elves live a while, but not all do. Most elves might be more in the 20-50 year range (Depending on which source you take elven aging from) and really haven't had that much longer to develop then humans as they reached maturity later. The older members of the race are lucky, as various attacks from goblins, orcs, evil religions, expansionist humans or dwarves, evil druids, etc. tend to eliminate most elves before they get that old. They also have a constitution penalty, so maybe elves have issues with plagues and disease taking their children and elders. This would reduce the number of wise old elven sages running about, and harken back to the Tolkien idea of a fading race.

[some guy]

There aren't many high level characters, because most people who constantly get in fights die, and the ones who don't don't get to be high level.

This, combined with the lower reproduction rate of the longer living races. (parents would not be glad if their only child would take on adventuring, especially if raising a child took 40 to 110 years*.)

*Which begs the question; what does an elf child do all those 110 years? Frolick? Is an elf a todler for 20 years?

[Mastikator]

Judging by the D&D experience tables, from memory.

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It takes about 5 even fights to level up once. (This isn't CR appropriate, this is an even fight)

If one discludes situations where both characters in a fight get killed, the chance of going up one level after even fights is 1/32.

There aren't many high level characters, because most people who constantly get in fights die, and the ones who don't don't get to be high level.

Losing a fight doesn't necessarily mean dying. And this ignores other sources of exp, such as quests and potentially training.
But yes, you are correct, there shouldn't be many above level 1 characters of any race because time is not the biggest issue.

[Trufflehound]

Just give them high cha, max ranks in profession and perform (acting), park them in a city for a few weeks, and they start getting xp bonuses for good roleplaying.

[LibraryOgre]

That's easy. Level limits. Since dwarves can't get over level 7 in fighter, they can't all be 20th level, can they?

You mostly have to watch out for thieves, and high-level half-orc assassins.

[Xyk]

That's easy. Level limits. Since dwarves can't get over level 7 in fighter, they can't all be 20th level, can they?

You mostly have to watch out for thieves, and high-level half-orc assassins.

I actually recognize that from my childhood in 2e. 2e had something similar at least, you may be referencing something from before my time.

[LibraryOgre]

I actually recognize that from my childhood in 2e. 2e had something similar at least, you may be referencing something from before my time.

Ask in General, get a General response.

[Jay R]

The crucial issue is that very, very few people become adventurers, and most of those who do, die. Those who succeed, retire.

Consider Elrond, from the Lord of the Rings. He was a warrior 3,000 at the end of the Second Age, when Isildur took the Ring from Sauron.

But then he got married, settled down, raised three kids, and ruled Rivendell for the next 3,000 years. Not a lot of experience points there.

Besides, when a human goes on an adventure, she's risking losing her remaining 50 years of life. When an elf does, he's risking losing thousands of years. I assume far fewer elves would take that risk, since it's a far bigger risk than for a human.

[Occasional Sage]

The crucial issue is that very, very few people become adventurers, and most of those who do, die. Those who succeed, retire.

Consider Elrond, from the Lord of the Rings. He was a warrior 3,000 at the end of the Second Age, when Isildur took the Ring from Sauron.

But then he got married, settled down, raised three kids, and ruled Rivendell for the next 3,000 years. Not a lot of experience points there.

Besides, when a human goes on an adventure, she's risking losing her remaining 50 years of life. When an elf does, he's risking losing thousands of years. I assume far fewer elves would take that risk, since it's a far bigger risk than for a human.

This (and similar responses upthread) explain there being FEWER leveled metahumans. It doesn't address why those limited numbers aren't SUPER BEEFY.

[Lapak]

Also, it's been shown in real life that time spent != skill growth. There is a real plateau effect, and only by actively challenging themselves can someone in training push on to new levels of proficiency. The vast majority of people who do any given thing reach a 'good enough' level and stop there. (Most people on this board, for example, can probably type pretty quickly, but not word-record-speed-typist quickly, regardless of how many hours a day we spend doing it, because we don't have any particular motivation to increase our speed so dramatically.) There's no reason that long-lived creatures would be any more likely to avoid just getting 'good enough' and settling, and that accounts for the vast majority of them. This is noticeably hard to do in non-lethal professions like artistry and accounting; constantly pushing oneself to challenging new heights in dangerous occupations like 'warrior/dungeon explorer' or 'experimental wizardry' is both less attractive and more likely to kill you before you become high level.

[Xefas]

Ask in General, get a General response.

For another General response, I'll point out that there are games that just play it straight. In Burning Wheel, Elves are just straight up better in every way than Humans, owing to their longer lifespans. Anything a Human PC can do, an Elf PC can do better, 'cause they've been doing it for longer.

And, if anyone reads that and thinks that's terrible and they couldn't have fun in that kind of environment, I encourage you to play Burning Wheel. Because it works. It really does.

[Knaight]

For another General response, I'll point out that there are games that just play it straight. In Burning Wheel, Elves are just straight up better in every way than Humans, owing to their longer lifespans. Anything a Human PC can do, an Elf PC can do better, 'cause they've been doing it for longer.

Right up until the point where they are consumed entirely by Grief and are out of the picture.

For yet another General response, there are games where it takes a huge amount to get good, and a much bigger amount to get better. That expert human swordsman has a good 20,000 hours behind the blade, and even if you like to be hundreds of years old you aren't reaching that milestone without a lot of practice, and a lot of continual effort spent on general fitness. A guardsman is probably going to get good enough and be done with it, because they aren't driven, and when your job consists of standing around all day, and most fighting you do involves unruly drunks you don't need to be a master swordsman.

Also, said master swordsman has, at some point, fought other incredibly good warriors. Some of which are probably dead.

[B1okHead]

It's also important to remember that you don't receive xp from everyday activities.

[DukeofDellot]

It's also important to remember that you don't receive xp from everyday activities.

Why not?

In the real world you do.

[Ravens_cry]

Why not?

In the real world you do.

Yeah, I was doing the dishes last night when I heard a ding and found myself suddenly feeling significantly more competent in many unrelated activities.
Actually, that's a lie, I didn't do the dishes last night.

[SuperFerret]

Not really. XP isn't just the stuff of experience, it's the stuff of meaningful experience, that's why at level 19, a goblin won't give you anything towards level 20. Everyday life doesn't bring constant meaningful challenges, so everyday life doesn't grant XP.

[LibraryOgre]

It's also important to remember that you don't receive xp from everyday activities.

Again, depends on system. In Ars Magica, you can choose to gain some experience every season just for doing your job, or speaking a language. I think you can get up to a 4 rating in them that way.

[Knaight]

Again, depends on system. In Ars Magica, you can choose to gain some experience every season just for doing your job, or speaking a language. I think you can get up to a 4 rating in them that way.

In Burning Wheel, several routine tasks or a lot of low stakes practice are necessary to improve a skill. More difficult tasks are also needed, but won't suffice on their own.

[DukeofDellot]

Yeah, I was doing the dishes last night when I heard a ding and found myself suddenly feeling significantly more competent in many unrelated activities.
Actually, that's a lie, I didn't do the dishes last night.

Cute, real cute.

A lot of what makes us truly better at what we do is the confidence that we have in ourselves. This confidence allows us to more readily access the abilities we've been studying and, while otherwise capable of them, we become better by the sheer fact that we feel more capable (less distraction, fewer clumsy mistakes) as we get better at a great many things, our confidence enhances our abilities in unrelated fields.

In other words, I was washing dishes on the job for a year, then when I got home I realized that I was capable of washing dishes at five times the speed of anyone else I know. This led to me performing better while playing an online game, and also in my other activities.

The ding is called an epiphany.

So even though I didn't mean what you thought I meant (experience is required for certain jobs, which means you have to have on the work experience which is obtained by everyday work), I still disagree with you.

[Mastikator]

Except in reality experience is neither linear nor quantifiable.

[Jay R]

This (and similar responses upthread) explain there being FEWER leveled metahumans. It doesn't address why those limited numbers aren't SUPER BEEFY.

Our view of it is distorted, because this isn't our life; it's a game. You're wondering why the players stopped playing. But people retire from strenuous jobs when they can. If I had enough money, I'd retire now, and my job is just number-crunching.

In a book, it's usually assumed that the current adventure is the one great moment in the characters' lives, and after it's over, "they live happily ever after". Even the Three Musketeers only had three great adventurous times in their lives, and they were professional soldiers. The serial characters -- James Bond, Tarzan, Superman, etc. are unrealistic. Try to figure out how many plots to destroy the world have happened in James Bond's life, or how many shipwrecks left people stranded near Tarzan's cabin. (Or how many attempted bank robberies have occurred in Metropolis. Come on, guys, go try a bank in another city.)

Besides, once you're the greatest warrior in the world, how much better can you get?

Once an Elrond has helped to defeat the great Evil threatening the world, achieved rulership over the land he wants to rule and protected its borders, and married a beautiful elf-woman, there is no incentive to go seeking more chances to die. He knows the dwarves found a great evil in Moria, he knows that the Necromancer is holed up in Dol Guldur, but they aren't his responsibility. He has retired from that, as is now happily living in Rivendell, raising and supporting the next generation of heroes.

Besides, a 20th level character cannot reach 21st level unless:
1. the world provides large numbers of 20th level challenges, and
2. he seeks them out.

Assume that an elven warrior or sorceror has adventured for many years, and is now at the same level as the top humans. He can't really go much past it, even if he wanted to, because there are no threats above that level to get experience from.*

*Yes, there are gods and demons on other planes. Why risk your life attacking them?

(In the earlier versions of D&D, this was much clearer, because it took an additional 100,000 to 250,000 points to go up a level at that stage. There probably aren't enough threats on your level to produce that, and even if there are, why would you go attack them? You're safe and comfortable at home, and there are younger would-be heroes to do it. You can sit back, call a council, and send out a fellowship of nine heroes like Elrond did. And remember that of those nine, Boromir died, and Frodo could never be healed, which is the real reason you will eventually stop doing it.

[hydroplatypus]

thanks for all the ideas, I'll probably use several of them. Very helpful.

[Occasional Sage]

Our view of it is distorted, because this isn't our life; it's a game. You're wondering why the players stopped playing. But people retire from strenuous jobs when they can. If I had enough money, I'd retire now, and my job is just number-crunching.

I see two assumptions in this that I disagree with: first, the "D&D model of XP" that other posters have mentioned already; second, that people must have drudgerous careers. I find my work to be challenging and uplifting, and would continue it even if we had enough money to retire. Why wouldn't a nigh-immortal find something like that?

In a book, it's usually assumed that the current adventure is the one great moment in the characters' lives, and after it's over, "they live happily ever after". Even the Three Musketeers only had three great adventurous times in their lives, and they were professional soldiers. The serial characters -- James Bond, Tarzan, Superman, etc. are unrealistic. Try to figure out how many plots to destroy the world have happened in James Bond's life, or how many shipwrecks left people stranded near Tarzan's cabin. (Or how many attempted bank robberies have occurred in Metropolis. Come on, guys, go try a bank in another city.)

Again, I find this to be a poor model of how experience really works in real life.

Besides, once you're the greatest warrior in the world, how much better can you get?

"Better than others" isn't the same as "perfect". There is always room for improvement in some facet of your pursuit, and it needn't require a "level-appropriate encounter". Research, practice, and teaching come easily to mind as ways to improve if you set aside the arbitrary paradigms of TSR/Hasbro and look at your own life as a template for how things can work in a game environment.