Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? III

[Gorbash Kazdar]

Comrade Gorby: This thread is a resource for getting information about real life weapons and armor. Normally this thread would be in Friendly Banter, but the concept has always been that the information is for RPG players and DMs so they can use it to make their games better.

The original thread was started by Eric the Mad, and included contributions from many posters for both questions and answers. Once that thread hit critical mass, Version II began. This thread is Version III.

A few rules for this thread:

• This thread is for asking questions about how weapons and armor really work. As such, it's not going to include game rule statistics. If you have such a question, especially if it stems from an answer or question in this thread, feel free to start a new post and include a link back to there. If you do ask a rule question here, you'll be asked to move it elsewhere, and then we'll be happy to help out with it.
• Any weapon or time period is open for questions. Medieval and ancient warfare questions seem to predominate, but since there are many games set in other periods as well, feel free to ask about any weapon. This includes futuristic ones - but be aware that these will be likely assessed according to their real life feasability. Thus, phasers, for example, will be talked about in real-world science and phsyics terms rather than the Star Trek canon. If you want to discuss a fictional weapon from a particular source according to the canonical explanation, please start a new thread for it. :)
• Please try to cite your claims if possible. If you know of a citation for a particular piece of information, please include it. However, everyone should be aware that sometimes even the experts don't agree, so it's quite possible to have two conflicting answers to the same question. This isn't a problem; the asker of the question can examine the information and decide which side to go with. The purpose of the thread is to provide as much information as possible. Debates are fine, but be sure to keep it a friendly debate (even if the experts can't!).
• No modern real-world political discussion. As the great Carl von Clausevitz once said, "War is merely the continuation of policy by other means," so poltics and war are heavily intertwined. However, politics are a big hot-button issue and one banned on these boards, so avoid political analysis if at all possible (this thread is primarily about military hardware). There's more leeway on this for anything prior to about 1800, but be very careful with all of it, and anything past 1900 is surely not open for analysis. (I know these are arbitrary dates, but any dates would be, and I feel these ones are reasonable.)
• No graphic descriptions. War is violent, dirty, and horrific, and anyone discussing it should be keenly aware of that. However, on this board graphic descriptions of violence (or sexuality) are not allowed, so please avoid them.

With that done, have at, and enjoy yourselves!

[Thomas]

Needlers/needleguns/fletchette guns. A standard cyberpunk weapon, the idea is to use a small, light dart or flechette (possibly ceramic) instead of a bullet. Sometimes (in cyberpunk games & literature) they're poisonous, sometimes they explode, sometimes they just fragment destructively.

What's real about them, and what's science fiction? Are there any weapons, in existence or development, that use this sort of principle? How effective are they?

I know APFSDS rounds are essentially a kind of huge flechette, and I understand there are artillery rounds that use something similar, but I'm more interested in handguns (since they tend to be an easily concealable weapon in cyberpunk).

[Sundog]

I have a question that's been bothering me for some time. I'm aware that one- and two-handed axes have been used by a variety of warriors all around the world, from the Vikings to the Saxon Housecarls and on and on, but all of the historical depictions I have seen have been single-bitted, that is, with an axehead on one side only.

I have no problem with that, but in a lot of fantasy drawings and paintings, double-bitted heads are used.

Did anyone actually use a double-bitted axe for warfare? And was it effective?

[Sundog]

Needlers/needleguns/fletchette guns. A standard cyberpunk weapon, the idea is to use a small, light dart or flechette (possibly ceramic) instead of a bullet. Sometimes (in cyberpunk games & literature) they're poisonous, sometimes they explode, sometimes they just fragment destructively.

What's real about them, and what's science fiction? Are there any weapons, in existence or development, that use this sort of principle? How effective are they?

I know APFSDS rounds are essentially a kind of huge flechette, and I understand there are artillery rounds that use something similar, but I'm more interested in handguns (since they tend to be an easily concealable weapon in cyberpunk).

To my knowledge, flechette rounds for handweapons are pretty much restricted to shotguns in RL. Drag-stabilised Flechette rounds are devastatingly deadly, because A) they hold together as a clump longer than shot, and B) they're usually sharp, and thus have a nasty tendency to ignore soft armour. For both of these reasons, they're heavily restricted.

For rifles and sidearms, APFSDS rounds are about the closest you're going to get.

[Thomas]

For rifles and sidearms, APFSDS rounds are about the closest you're going to get.

That doesn't sound right, amateur though I am in these matters. Shooting fin-stabilized rounds with a rifled barrel isn't possible, is it? That's why discarding sabot rounds are only found for shotguns, right?

[LordOfNarf]

I love using reach weapons, and recently I was wondering if the Duom (in arms and equipment guide) was actually a real type of weapon ast some point or if it was somebored game desiners brainchild?

[Ikkitosen]

Needlers/needleguns/fletchette guns. A standard cyberpunk weapon, the idea is to use a small, light dart or flechette (possibly ceramic) instead of a bullet. Sometimes (in cyberpunk games & literature) they're poisonous, sometimes they explode, sometimes they just fragment destructively.

What's real about them, and what's science fiction? Are there any weapons, in existence or development, that use this sort of principle? How effective are they?

I know APFSDS rounds are essentially a kind of huge flechette, and I understand there are artillery rounds that use something similar, but I'm more interested in handguns (since they tend to be an easily concealable weapon in cyberpunk).

I believe that flechette weapons DO exist and shred personal armour quite handily, but that they're also illegal in war due to international convention. The reason for this is that they maim and injure rather than kill, and are thus considered inhumane. This is just what I have heard, but if you're really interested I'm sure you can look into it further along these lines.

[pincushionman]

I think another reason flechette rounds are limited mostly to smoothbore shotguns is I imagine the sabot could f**k up your rifling. Using different rounds in the same rifled barrel is bad enough, plus for a flechette (long and skinny compared to a bullet) rifling doesn't help you any, just wastes energy in the barrel.

EDIT: ESPECIALLY if you have multiple flechettes in the same round. Any spinning would send the flechettes flying in different directions when the sabot separated. And you need them to travel fairly straight.

[AMX]

For rifles and sidearms, APFSDS rounds are about the closest you're going to get.

Look up "SPIWs" and "Steyr ACR". ;)

That doesn't sound right, amateur though I am in these matters. Shooting fin-stabilized rounds with a rifled barrel isn't possible, is it? That's why discarding sabot rounds are only found for shotguns, right?

"Rifle" is sometimes used as a generic term for "long handheld gun", rather than "firearm with rifled barrel".
In other words: rifles don't actually need to be rifled.

I believe that flechette weapons DO exist and shred personal armour quite handily, but that they're also illegal in war due to international convention. The reason for this is that they maim and injure rather than kill, and are thus considered inhumane. This is just what I have heard, but if you're really interested I'm sure you can look into it further along these lines.

That's a myth.



Now about how effective they are...
That's disputed, and I'm not aware of any actual tests.
Usually people will either claim ...
a) that the flechette will simply pass straight through a target, causing only minimal damage, or
b) that it will bend, and possibly break, and cause damage far in excess of that done by a regular bullet.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

Wikipedia's article on flechettes actually covers the issues pretty well. If the problems of accuracy and deflection can be solved, flechette ammo does have some benefits. Against light body armor, it can penetrate better (though the small darts also tend to cause less damage than a normal round). It's also lighter and has less recoil than with standard rounds. The SCIMTR type darts are actually quite effective, just too expensive - their performance isn't superior enough to standard rounds to justify the production cost.

[hr]
I'm fairly certain the duom is simply a fantasy weapon. I've never seen a real-life version of the weapon, and the idea of the reverse-thrust attack seems a bit fishy to me (outside of using it to try and trip someone). Plus, adding so much weight to the head of the spear would likely make it less useful as a spear. With other spear-like weapons I know of, those that have "accoutraments," if you will, are meant to add some form of guard onto the weapon or so it can be used for different kinds of attacks (usually so it can be swung with some effect). Plus, in real life most polearm users also trained to choke-up on the weapon if someone closed with them, or use the back end of the haft to strike with (more to harass and unbalance the opponent than to cause real damage).

To me, the duom just seems like a fanciful extrapolation of the boar spear designed to solve a problem that only really exists in the D&D ruleset.

[hr]
The labrys is an example of a real double-bitted battle-axe, but most Medieval axes I've seen are single bitted. The conceptual advantage of the double-bitted axe is that you can strike on the back-swing as well, but in my own experience turning a back-swing into a strike feels extremely awkward, since you're going agaisnt the natural power motion of your grip.

To me, a back-swing strike would at best be a harassing attack; at worst, it makes it harder to recover the weapon. A single headed axe can be recovered pretty quickly, especially if you choke up on it further (which also makes it easier to control and puts a bit more power into the blow).

More likely the second head simply added weight to a strike and made using the weapon a bit simpler to use. But it doesn't seem like a major advantage - simply making a single head a bit bigger can have the same affect and has other benefits, and you don't want the head to be too heavy (fantasy axes are hugely oversized, usually).

[Spuddly]

That's a myth.

What is a myth? That certain types of ammunition are banned under the Geneva conventions, or flachette ammo in particular?

[Gorbash Kazdar]

What is a myth? That certain types of ammunition are banned under the Geneva conventions, or flachette ammo in particular?

Both. The Hague Conventions are the ones that banned hollow-point ammunition from warfare (as well as other ammunition designed to deform or flatten excessively within the human body). Flechette ammunition is not covered by this.

The Geneva Protocol of the Hague Conventions banned biological and chemical weapons, IIRC, which is where some of the confusion between the Hague Conventions and Geneva Conventions (which cover treatment of prisoners and the wounded primarily, IIRC) comes from.

[pincushionman]

I suspect the idea of two edges on a battleaxe grew from the idea of having two edges on a woodcutting axe (the tool). These I have seen, but have been warned against their use because it is easier to hurt onesself using them.

I guess the motivation behind having a double-bladed woodcutting axe is that if one side gets dull, you just turn it around and use the other side, meaning you get twice as much cutting out of the same weight, and you either don't need to pack as many axes, or you only have to sharpen it half as often. This would be fairly important in lumberjacking, but I can't imagine it's really that much of a concern in battle.

[Fhaolan]

The labrys is an example of a real double-bitted battle-axe, but most Medieval axes I've seen are single bitted. The conceptual advantage of the double-bitted axe is that you can strike on the back-swing as well, but in my own experience turning a back-swing into a strike feels extremely awkward, since you're going agaisnt the natural power motion of your grip.

Double-bitted axes existed in the bronze age like Gorbash says, such as the labrys and sagaris (although the sagaris isn't always double-bitted.) For some reason it became associated with Amazons, to the point that some historians claimed that Amazons invented the concept of battleaxes in the first place, and thanks to this association there are several modern feminist movements that use a double-bitted axe as their symbol. They basically fell out of fashion (probably because all the male warriors didn't want to be using a 'girly weapon'. :) ) but was re-invented in the 19th century in America as the 'Paul Bunyan Axe'. Most medieval battleaxes are single bitted, some having back spikes, hammerheads or hooks.

Now, for personal experience using a double-bitted axe: I find that the back blade is almost unused. Single-handed I almost never do a 'backswing' like you would in tennis, I rotate my wrist and bring the primary blade to bear. That provides more power than a 'backswing'.

With larger, two-handed axes I tend to keep my hands moving, on the recovery of a swing switching my grip, which again means the primary blade is brought to bear.

I am under the impression that the 'Paul Bunyan' lumberjack axes of the 19th century required special training to use effectively, and for this reason never managed to become popular in Europe. There's probably some trick to make them work that doesn't come natural when swinging a battleaxe.

So unless you do something to damage the primary blade, and do it in a way that doesn't invalidate the axe entirely, I personally don't see the advantage of double-bitting outside of increased axe-head weight.

[Edmund]

Double bit axes are more often found in the tool side of the axe world. Their edges commonly have two different grinds. A finer edge for cutting down trees and a blunter edge for work close to the ground.

As far as the military uses of double-bit axes, they're basically only occasionally seen in the Middle Ages, and perhaps earlier. They're primarily parade weapons, not meant to see combat.

The reason for this? There's two.

The first is that they are less versatile than an axe with, say, a hammer or spike end on the other side.

Second, they are more difficult to make. The basic design for a single bit axe is: a bit of wrought iron, and some HC steel... For a basic demonstration, see here: camp axe

Instead of merely folding it over, you would have to weld two different 'strips', if you will, together, and that is hard to control.

[Leperflesh]

Or, forge the entire head as a solid piece, and then drive first a spike, and then an entire drift, through to make a hole for the handle. This is very difficult to do right, because the hole must be precisely centered, yet it's very heavy hammer work indeed... and also stresses the steel more.

Or you can drill out the hole. This is wasteful, and you have to have a bit that is harder than the steel you used for the head (not that big a deal: you'd use softer, tougher steel for an axe typically anyway... although of course this may prevent the use of higher-carbon steel for the edge).

Or, you could cut or forge two deep fullers into the head, and use a split handle to wrap around the head. This is a weaker construction technique, however, but the fact that the head will be balanced may mitigate that factor somewhat. This technique was the norm for stone axes.

I've actually made an axe head using the technique Edmund describes.

-Lep

[Caelestion]

Anyone who's been to the Greek island of Crete won't fail to notice all the double-headed axe motifs going on there. The double-headed axe was the symbol of the legendary/mythical King Minos and was possibly also linked into the bull worship etc. that went on there too.

[Edmund]

Or, forge the entire head as a solid piece, and then drive first a spike, and then an entire drift, through to make a hole for the handle. This is very difficult to do right, because the hole must be precisely centered, yet it's very heavy hammer work indeed... and also stresses the steel more.

I've actually done this, with a single-edged axe (which is currently annealing), though I slit the eye rather than punched it.

I can tell you this: It was difficult to control with a hammer-side and a blade-side (I originally wanted to make a small hammer, but switched to an axe after I had squared up one end. D'oh.) I can't imagine how hard it would be with two blades.

[Bizwacky]

Sorry about the minor change of topic, but I'm curious, how does one wield a battleaxe properly? I've used regular axes to split wood, or chop down trees and it seems to me that that would be the right way to wield an axe, but, wouldn't that leave you vulnerable as you prepare to swing? I imagine it would do quite a bit of damage, but be a reckless way to fight. Is there a completely different technique for wielding battleaxes, or what?

[tsu]

A lot of weapons like axes or swords were made double sided simply because inferior tempering techniques and steel made metal hard enough to hold a edge so brittle the blade would chip as soon as it struck anything hard

[Raum]

Sorry about the minor change of topic, but I'm curious, how does one wield a battleaxe properly? I've used regular axes to split wood, or chop down trees and it seems to me that that would be the right way to wield an axe, but, wouldn't that leave you vulnerable as you prepare to swing? I imagine it would do quite a bit of damage, but be a reckless way to fight. Is there a completely different technique for wielding battleaxes, or what?

There are some on here who can probably answer this in more detail than I can, but briefly, you wouldn't use a battle axe as you do a wood axe. Your swings will be shorter and more controlled, probably with your hands held a bit farther apart to give you the leverage to snap the axe head into your target.

Long, powerful swings such as you use chopping wood, leave you open too long and are harder to recover from.

[Edmund]

A lot of weapons like axes or swords were made double sided simply because inferior tempering techniques and steel made metal hard enough to hold a edge so brittle the blade would chip as soon as it struck anything hard

I doubt this strongly.

First and foremost: I have never heard of 'inferior' tempering techniques. There are two types that I know of, and both basically achieve the same result.

First, there is tempering with heat from the fire, that is holding the hardened object over the flame for the appropriate period of time (either through experience or colour). You may also collect heat in a region of the object that is not meant to be tempered, and it will spread to the area that you want to be tempered (this is great for chisels, axes, and punches. Anything one-ended)

The second is merely heating up a large piece of iron, and holding the object to be tempered to that until the desired colour is reached.

Neither is inferior to the other, though one unskilled at it will probably do a bad job, but that is the case with all skilled labor. The first method requires less time, but more skill, so it is not advised to be used without a good deal of practice.

Now, blades chipping is a bad thing. A very bad thing. The reason for this is that chips tend to be deeper than folds, and create tiny crystalline cracks in the blade. They aren't fun.

One good example of a sword with an edge that would chip rather than fold is the katana. This sword was not meant to strike hard surfaces, but was perfect for the draw-cut, which is why it had a hard edge. It was single-edged.

On a different subject: I pretty much agree with Raum. You could also use two-handed axes such as the Berdysh to thrust, and types with any sort of downward 'beard' or such could hook shields.

Single handed axes are pretty much used the same way as hatchets are, with certain exceptions in handling (especially because battle axes have longer handles than hatchets).

[Fhaolan]

Sorry about the minor change of topic, but I'm curious, how does one wield a battleaxe properly? I've used regular axes to split wood, or chop down trees and it seems to me that that would be the right way to wield an axe, but, wouldn't that leave you vulnerable as you prepare to swing? I imagine it would do quite a bit of damage, but be a reckless way to fight. Is there a completely different technique for wielding battleaxes, or what?

It's somewhat difficult to explain in text. So much easier to demonstrate in RL. Here's an attempt to explain one type of 'swing'. There's a lot more, but this one is a starting point to get the idea. DISCLAIMER: Don't do this with a real axe unless you know what you're doing and had the proper training. You can seriously hurt yourself and others. The axe is both a tool and a weapon, should be treated with respect and not used as a toy. I cannot repeat this enough. I've seen enough fools hurt themselves because they thought it was all a game.

Using a two-handed axe with a straight shaft about four feet long: First off, you almost never swing the axe vertically, because recovering if you miss is annoying. Instead, you will be swinging at an angle with the intent of reaching the target's center of mass through their collarbone. One of your hands is at the base of the shaft (call this hand 1), the other up near the head of the axe (call this hand 2). Bring the axe up so that it's parallel to the ground, going past your head, with hand 2 behind you and hand 1 in front. Do not twist your arms into unnatural positions. Be relaxed. This allows you to move the shaft fairly quickly in case you need to block incoming blows. Now lets begin the swing. Hand 2 goes up, sending the axe head upwards in an arc. As the axe continues to swing hand 2, while still providing the force, starts to slide down the shaft of the axe. The idea is that hand 2 and hand 1 will meet at the end of the shaft when the axe-head is passing through the target's center of mass, if such a thing was possible. Usually, just before impact, hand1 is pulling down as well to provide extra 'oomph'.

Now, if you miss: Notice that your hands are together. Let go with hand 1, and stop providing force with hand 2. Hand 1 will be catching the shaft of the axe, sufficiently below the axe-head to not get cut by the blades in a moment. Continue the arc so that the axe misses your legs on the opposite side to where you started your swing. Catch the axe shaft with hand 1, as mentioned before. Continuing the arc, bring the axe up so that the shaft is parallel with the ground with hand 1 behind you and hand 2 in front of you, in an exact mirror image of the position you were when you started the swing. Wash, rinse, repeat. The axe-head should be making a distorted figure eight motion as you continuously swing, let go, catch, bring up, swing, let go, catch, etc.

Now, if you hit: It is unlikely that you will actually fix the axe in your target, unless the target is very woody. With practice, you should be able to drag the blade out of the target by pulling the shaft towards you, at which point you let the axe head fall, and start the circular motion again.

As I said, this is one single swing. There are lots of others, but it's a starting point.

[tsu]

Well first of all is the steel you’d find in the middle ages wouldn’t be like the steel you can buy at you local hardware store,
The steel would have lots of impurity like sulphur that makes it brittle to begin with; also the carbon content would be inconsistent, In Europe most of the art metallurgy was lost during the dark ages though if you were really rich you could get steel imported from India.
As for the tempering process its that the techniques took a while to develop, first you need to heat it tile its red and cool it quickly to make it hard and brittle then head until it has a blue huge and cooled rapidly repeatedly to exchange hardness for toughness, this doesn’t seem overly complicated but it wasn’t perfected till near the close of the 100 years war thought inconsistent steel impurities probably made it harder.

[Belkarseviltwin]

Using a two-handed axe with a straight shaft about four feet long: First off, you almost never swing the axe vertically, because recovering if you miss is annoying. Instead, you will be swinging at an angle with the intent of reaching the target's center of mass through their collarbone. One of your hands is at the base of the shaft (call this hand 1), the other up near the head of the axe (call this hand 2). Bring the axe up so that it's parallel to the ground, going past your head, with hand 2 behind you and hand 1 in front. Do not twist your arms into unnatural positions. Be relaxed. This allows you to move the shaft fairly quickly in case you need to block incoming blows. Now lets begin the swing. Hand 2 goes up, sending the axe head upwards in an arc. As the axe continues to swing hand 2, while still providing the force, starts to slide down the shaft of the axe. The idea is that hand 2 and hand 1 will meet at the end of the shaft when the axe-head is passing through the target's center of mass, if such a thing was possible. Usually, just before impact, hand1 is pulling down as well to provide extra 'oomph'.

The two-handed technique with the top hand sliding down the handle is how I was taught to swing a wood axe (although you do it vertically, and there is no "recovery" motion).

Also, I've heard of the Danish battleaxe being swung round the user's head before striking, which apparently gave it enough momentum to go through a knight and kill his horse. Is there any grain of truth in this?

[Bug-a-Boo]

The two-handed technique with the top hand sliding down the handle is how I was taught to swing a wood axe (although you do it vertically, and there is no "recovery" motion).

Also, I've heard of the Danish battleaxe being swung round the user's head before striking, which apparently gave it enough momentum to go through a knight and kill his horse. Is there any grain of truth in this?

Not much. A full blow to the head would probably take a knight out of action, but it'll have to really be a blow to the head. A horse will survive that kind of impact. It won't be happy, but it'll not drop down dead.


As for fighting with a double handed axe: You fight using the whole shaft. The head is used with cuts and strikes as we see normal, yet shorter and less forcefull compared to woodcutting. The trick with fighting with a battle axe is to use the shaft as you would a polearm. Also the same way you'd use a pollax. Also note that historical waraxes were a lot lighter then you'd expect. (if you're allowed to examine weapons up close at your local museum, take a look)

For a visual example of what I mean, take a look here, page 10 and 11: http://mhewer.club.fr/Library/Talhoffer/page_10.htm

[Edmund]

Well first of all is the steel you’d find in the middle ages wouldn’t be like the steel you can buy at you local hardware store,
The steel would have lots of impurity like sulphur that makes it brittle to begin with; also the carbon content would be inconsistent, In Europe most of the art metallurgy was lost during the dark ages though if you were really rich you could get steel imported from India.

Concerning steel production:
First and foremost, nothing metallurgically was 'lost' during the 'Dark Ages'. The Romans had little iron production in general, though that is not to say that their smiths were any less skilled than their later counterparts.
Techniques were used to remove the impurities (though these impurities weren't so bad in Europe as the were in Japan), so there wouldn't be 'lots of' impurities if the steel had been properly processed.

Knowledge, especially about things as commonplace as ironwork is rarely ever lost, except to scholars. Some scholars, for example, think the technique for Damascus (Wootz) steel was lost, but this was not the case, it was just not known to those scholars.

As for the tempering process its that the techniques took a while to develop, first you need to heat it tile its red and cool it quickly to make it hard and brittle then head until it has a blue huge and cooled rapidly repeatedly to exchange hardness for toughness, this doesn’t seem overly complicated but it wasn’t perfected till near the close of the 100 years war thought inconsistent steel impurities probably made it harder.

You don't merely describe tempering but hardening too. I have seen no evidence that it wasn't 'perfected' until the middle of the 15th c. (1453 is when the HYW officially ended).

You would not always heat the steel up to blue, either. The colour would vary depending on what you were tempering. Swords would be blue or purple, spears would be light blue, the faces of hammers would be straw yellow, etc. (These colours would be ground off in the final polishing and sharpening, of course)




It is also worth noting that relatively little analysis has been done regarding medieval steel, particularly in the area of weapons, so what archaeological knowledge we do have is rather inconclusive.

[Ryujin]

Going back a bit...

That doesn't sound right, amateur though I am in these matters. Shooting fin-stabilized rounds with a rifled barrel isn't possible, is it? That's why discarding sabot rounds are only found for shotguns, right?

The M903 SLAP for weapons that'll take the 0.50 BMG round uses a plastic sabot for its 0.30 tungsten penetrator, but I don't think it's fin-stabilized. 19mm RHA penetration at range.

[DarthMarasmus]

That doesn't sound right, amateur though I am in these matters. Shooting fin-stabilized rounds with a rifled barrel isn't possible, is it? That's why discarding sabot rounds are only found for shotguns, right?

Shotguns are all smooth-bore, no rifling. It is possible to buy a rifled barrel for a shotgun (for use with non-rifled, non-saboted slugs), in fact, some people prefer them to rifles when deer hunting in deep undergrowth since they don't deflect as badly and have better stopping power (after all, the only rifle I know of that has a bullet that is nearly as big as a 12-guage slug is a .50 BMG, and you don't want to shoot a deer, elk, moose, etc. with it since there would be practically nothing left!). Quite simply, a 12-guage slug has more knockdown power because of the kinetic energy transference.

I hope this helps and doesn't sound too much like a science lesson ;)

[DarthMarasmus]

One question:

I'm doing a presentation in my Roman History class comparing the film "Gladiator" to the realities of the Arena and the Circus Maximus. I'm looking for sources regarding the weapons and armor worn by gladiators, so I would appreciate any suggestions for good sources for this information. Please don't give me anything like "Joe Blow's Gladiator Site" because this is a 400 level class and the professor would not take kindly to such.