Powerful NPCs, Y U No help save the world?

[veven]

As a DM how do you deal with the existence of high-level NPCs in your games? Especially when whatever the PCs are dealing with would be of interest to said NPC?

[jindra34]

As a DM how do you deal with the existence of high-level NPCs in your games? Especially when whatever the PCs are dealing with would be of interest to said NPC?

Remind myself and players that just because Plot/villian A is what they are currently dealing with that doesn't mean there isn't plots/villians B through Z that need dealing with, and that some of those may be even tougher.

[Ur-Quan]

When I use powerful NPCs in my campaigns I often keep them tightly woven within the story and their position. A level 15 NPC is possibly a leader of an army, a godlike fighter winning wars for money, duelist known for her performance, a ranger which keeps to his forest and rules it with an iron fist, a dictator of a country (Tarquin ^^), and so on, and so on. You don't really have freeloading powerful people in any world, so you shouldn't have them in your fantasy world either.

I often run low-fantasy settings, so reaching even level 5 elevates you to a hero status, making bards sing songs about your heroics and goblins hiding in fear. A hero of level 20, at least how I run it, would get himself ballads sung in every language ever, recognization in every tavern ever and a powerful position in the society.

Basically, it all depends on the scale of your setting.

[Shadowknight12]

By making sure that, whatever this puny villain of mine is plotting, there are at least 10 higher-leveled villains with far, far worse schemes. I mean, really. Does anyone seriously think that only one villain per week is allowed to threaten the world? It doesn't work that way. Peasants sleep soundly precisely because they don't know the many different ways their peaceful lives could be destroyed at any moment.

Until the PCs get to the same level as the powerful NPCs, they don't get to face the threats they face. When they do, they take over, one way or another.

EDIT: Rogues, rogues everywhere.

[TroubleBrewing]

They're busy with something else?


I mean, if you just picked up a new cookbook you've been DYING to try, all your friends are coming over for a dinner party, and you have to conjure up some Avocado Elementals for guacamole, you aren't going to have the time to help out every Fighter, Rogue, or Cleric that comes to the door begging for the arcane secrets needed to defeat the God King of Ashenmoor! I mean, that's just rude.

[Gensh]

I believe the general rule is that they're all working together in two or so groups, but no one is actually able to do anything because then the other side will interfere. Like you'll have the Justice League and the Legion of Doom, but neither really does anything drastic unless they're prepared to deal with the other side beforehand. It helps especially if the world itself is in no danger since that can cause the villains to help the heroes in many cases, requiring you to bring in some sort of crazy super-powerful cult to keep them from saving the world without the PCs. In either case, there's a strong status quo, and the PCs are the young up-and-comers who will shift the balance of power in one direction once and for all.

Except when the high level NPCs are just lazy and jaded. That's pretty common too.

[legomaster00156]

Some of the high-level NPC's in my game...

1. Astral Knights are indeed actively fighting back, as they patrol the country that they protect and fight off invaders. In war, they are organized into an active "elite" military branch (though they may refuse to mobilize if their deities tell them not to).
2. The Immortals, the adventuring party of one PC's father, is active, but being so high-level, they mostly just take on really big monsters that other, less experienced adventurers have no chance of defeating (Purple Worms in the dwarven mountains, for example).
3. An old, highly elite (level 20) party once sent the Tarrasque into another slumber. Unfortunately, just before they retired, an old enemy of theirs cursed them, and now even they can't remember their adventures, or each other. Their heroics still appear in bard's tales, but it is never their names in the tales.
4. There's an Archmage in a demiplane of his own creation, closely linked to the mortal world. However, he only rarely even leaves his demiplane, so he's practically removed himself from the world's events (that's what Archmages do, right?).

[navar100]

In my group's campaign powerful NPCs do participate in background stuff that affects the world. We can interact with them, have them as friends and allies, etc.

My beef is I wish the DM would stop setting up overwhelming combats we can't possibly win only to have an NPC come in out of nowhere to save us.

[Ravens_cry]

In my group's campaign powerful NPCs do participate in background stuff that affects the world. We can interact with them, have them as friends and allies, etc.

My beef is I wish the DM would stop setting up overwhelming combats we can't possibly win only to have an NPC come in out of nowhere to save us.

Yeah, there has got to be some way of doing it besides Mary Sue DMPC.

[Gensh]

(that's what Archmages do, right?).

I don't know about your guy, but all the really high level mages in the last game I ran ended up being like Prof. X. All of them but one (the BBEG for the story path the party chose) dropped everything they were doing and became lecturers at a prestigious mages' college. All the PCs backstories made it where the college was hardly involved at all, but if I run another game in that setting, they'll serve as mentors and questgivers for the purpose of breaking the status quo I mentioned before.

[Aidan305]

Politics and bureaucracy mostly in my campaigns. When an NPC gets to a certain level, they invariably start having responsibilities, wether it's an army, an academy, a country or a guild. A high level NPC can't simply drop these responsibilities to go off chasing after every villain to threaten the world or they'd never get anything done, the paychecks would go unsigned and the evil senator would successfully prevent the reforms the ruler wants to bring in.

That's kinda why they usually end up hiring adventurers to go defeat the bad guy for them. They may want to be out there adventuring, but they simply don't have the time to spare, or the willingness to put it ahead of other, more important things.

[Oracle_Hunter]

They're busy with something else?

Pretty much.

I don't keep a lot of unattached high-level NPCs in my game. What makes the PCs unique is that they're successful adventurers who don't decide to retire and do something else with their powers. Everyone else decides to found a town, seek employment with Higher Powers, serve their former sponsors, and so on.

Of course, I've yet to run an actual "save the world" game, but if I did, chances are it would be an Epic Tier game (D&D4) and there wouldn't be anyone stronger.

[Hiro Protagonest]

NPCs are Aragorn.

Or they're too busy running a town/city/barony/kingdom/empire.

[Glimbur]

As a DM how do you deal with the existence of high-level NPCs in your games? Especially when whatever the PCs are dealing with would be of interest to said NPC?

They don't exist! A rather successful short campaign I ran took the players from about level 3 to level 5 or 6. They were the most powerful people in the city they were in... except that the nobility had money and followers. The party ended up almost succeeding in a coup but were struck down by a level 4 rogue straight from the DMG and his pet thunder-velociraptor.

[gkathellar]

I can think of three good approaches, and one which falls apart because of Teleport.

1 - As others have said, the NPCs are busy, and not always with facing other threats. Sometimes you have to stick around a place to protect it, or you're the king and you can't run around gallivanting or pull out the army whenever you want. You don't get to high levels without racking up loads of things to do.

2 - Sometimes the NPCs are already involved, but the threat is so vast that they can't handle it on their own, or can't risk the attempt. If you're busy deadlocking the Elder Brain, it's nice to have some lower leveled PCs to do the heavy work of attacking the actual Mind Flayer colony. If they lose, no big deal. If they win, yay, you won!

3 - Because the PCs exist. High-level NPCs learn to see the big picture — they know that they don't have to deal with every problem, and if they attempt to they'll just be limiting the potential of others. They keep their eyes open for the occasions when they absolutely have to act, but otherwise prefer to cultivate new heroes to solve whatever problem has just sprung up.

4 - This one falls apart because of teleportation, but the obvious answer is: problems of distance. Sometimes the NPCs are just too far away. Sometimes they would intervene, but have no idea what's going on. Whatever the case, they're not present, and so the cup falls to the PCs.

[bloodtide]

As a DM how do you deal with the existence of high-level NPCs in your games? Especially when whatever the PCs are dealing with would be of interest to said NPC?

In general they are busy with other stuff. mostly the stuff the PC's are interested in, are not the things the NPC's have interest in anyway.

But even when the high level NPC also wants the same thing, they often don't 'lower' themselfs to confront the PCs....they send goons.


And I use the classic power balance: Wizard A can't leave is kingdom as he knows Wizard B and Fighter A might take that chance to attack while he is distracted. Fighter B is an ally of A, but hates Wizard B so the two fighters might team up to attack Wizard B if he is distracted attacking wizard A. And so on and so on.

[kaomera]

Don't run games with high-level NPCs.

[Anderlith]

They don't exist..?

[Nachtritter]

Here's what I'd do.

a) Powerful NPC needs help from PCs to save the world.
b) "Go forth, young Frodo/Conan/whatever to save the world and bring me back the magical jewel of MacGuffin while I try to retrieve the brazier of Whoozits from the dimension of butter."
c) MacGuffin retrieved, party gains gear, great joy is had, return to the powerful NPC.
d) Powerful NPC done messed up, turns out he wasn't as all-wise and all-knowing as he thought, giving the sense of fallibility. Is now on his deathbed, contritely asks PCs to clean up his mess.
e) "Look, I know I screwed things up. But they didn't get the items in my Most Secret of Treasure Rooms. I was going to use it to fight back, but there wasn't time. It's up to you to stop this madness now. I've learned the valuable lesson of humility - it's up to men greater than I to solve this. You... are those men."
f) PCs grab Gear of Awesomeness and go on an incredible journey the eventually eclipses those of their former mentor. Evil is defeated, balance restored, etc.
g) Powerful NPC looks at group when they return with shock and amazement, and calls them brothers. Swears to work with them and support them in all their tasks as best he can for the remainder of his life.
h) Roll credits, pass out xp, move on to Call of Cthulhu to put the fear of god back into your players.

[MrRigger]

You could always do as Mahou Sensei Negima did, and create an NPC like Jack Rakan. Horribly powerful, one of the heroes of the last war, and able to be defeated by a handful of people in the entire world, but also tremendously mercenary, generally offensive, and disinclined to do anything that doesn't peak his interest.

MrRigger

[Wyntonian]

That depends on what level you're playing at, in my philosophy.

High-Level NPC reaction when asked to help:

The "Let's go kill goblins" Level.

A. I have better stuff to do.
B. Um......why?
C. Nothing, as too busy meditating on top of mountain, fighting epic battle against demons, ruling nations/demiplanes, or getting very, very drunk with a near-epic WBL.

The "That was fun, now for other monster types!" Level.

A. Did that a week ago. Now they're back. Have fun.
B. Dude... I just told you to go do that... I'm busy running stuff here. Get on that.
C. See above.

The "Let's find the magical McMuffinGuffin and close the portal!" Level.

A. I'm the one opening the portal.
B. I'm the one keeping the portal from opening the portal all the way until you get your little errand-boy selves back.
C. I'm guarding the McGuffin. Good luck.
D. I don't exist, what, you think there's like a bakers dozen of us running around in every campaign? At level 21 you have a decent chance of getting a good slap in against a freaking Demigod, assuming you're a caster of some sort. Really. Think this through.

[Alleran]

For me, they're usually off doing something else, or busy with their own affairs and don't have the time to fix the little things (I'm not going to run a "save the world from demon lords of the Abyss" plot when the PCs are only third level - they'll be looking at a much smaller scale of event). Odds are that if they were adventurers, they're done adventuring. They've hung up their staff and hobo-cloak, and settled down in something. Mages might be lecturers at a college, druids might run a circle. A popular choice for my NPC casters is that they go off planeswalking, and out there you find an entire multiverse of things to do while never returning to their home plane. Or they could build themselves a timeless demiplane and spend centuries designing and perfecting new magic, completely ignorant of the world outside.

Some of my mages end up like the Disciples of Aldur in the Belgariad/Malloreon series. They get up and move around when major events start taking place (or when they have to do something, like arrange marriages, remove "obstacles" from play, and so on), but they can also spend hundreds of years letting the world pass them by while they study, research, or just generally hang around in their towers. Border conflicts between this baron and that earl over the mountain range to the west is frankly below their level of interest when it isn't relevant to what they're doing at the time (they might be studying why stars fall, or the reason for mountains, or proving mathematically that 3+3=6).

Fighters might be joining the nobility or out-and-out running a kingdom, clerics busy with roles in their church, and so on and so forth. One NPC bard/rogue type was a kingdom's spymaster. Or they might have settled down with a family.

Unless trouble literally comes right to their doorstep, odds are that the high-level PCs can't just drop everything and run off to solve the problem. They have responsibilities. That's what adventurers are for. They're mobile, they don't have things tying them to one place, and it's not like you can run out of them.

Or, of course, the high-level NPCs might just not care. Epic level? Perfect new magic? Interesting, until it becomes boring or you want to do something else instead. Blow up a mountain? Sure, sure, but turning things into gravel becomes rather stale after a while. Or you run out of mountains. Rule a kingdom? Interesting, but all the niggling bits of statecraft, the constant chores, signing, governing... you just can't be bothered dealing with those headaches. Hrm, why bother getting up this morning at all? Yeah, it's lazy and can make them into jerks, but it happens.

And the last option is that the high level NPC is taking an active role. He's just operating against the PCs.

[Cerlis]

The Ingorance Syndrome:whoever has plotted this is very cunning, very secretive, and have made a deliberate attempt to hide themselves from the Big Good. even if you find out his plans and tell the Big Good, the Big Bad has found some way to hide his plans and is clever enough to where the Big Good can bring much if any of his power to bear to fight him directly. he needs someone more discrete....

The Elemist syndrome: In ANimorphs There are two godly beings of highly evolved power. They had opposing viewpoints and ended up in a long war, with entire galaxies being destroyed in the crossfire. Since neither wanted the universe destroyed they decided to play universe chess. Each would nudge their champions in the right direction and sometimes allowed direct interferance, in a millinia long fight for the universe. This would be the case with any great powerful diefic beings

The Warcraft syndrome: The big good and big bad are already fighting it out, in fact he is the entire reason you havent been overrun and killed yet. weither its a climatic duel with yall helping or an entire campaign against an army of evil, the fight is at a stalemate and the Big Good has a plan on how, while he distracts their main forces, you can crack the chain in the big bad's weak link and bring about his downfall.

The Hokage Syndrome: In Naruto, the (basically) most powerful (and knowledgeable ) ninja becomes Hokage. However, despite this this severely limits the villages power. The Hokage must generally stay within the villiage, because if an enemy village found out their most powerful member was gone , it would be a great time for an attack. A great empire forged on the power of a lvl 20 paladin has MANY enemies, just waiting for him to leave his empire unguarded.

[Elfinor]

Everyone has said good things, and I've bookmarked the thread - learnt a lot. Here are a few additional reasons to kick them out of the way.

Kryptonite: Some of them could have a severe phobia of/weakness to something or someone. One of the most powerful characters in my campaign is an Aelfborn (DR 307, crazy half-elf) Wizard, his magical tattoos stop him from going completely insane. He is very afraid of dead magic zones (which are slowly growing/appearing as the campaign progresses, a lot of fortresses are partially built on them) and anti-magic fields (most nations he could potentially piss off have one or two magi/psions on staff who can AMF). As a result, he rarely leaves his tower.

MadnessSPARTA!!!: Insanity/phobias in general can also be reasonable, they've probably been through a lot. For a twist, it could be calculated 'insanity' and they have a plot they're trying to pull.

Paper Tiger
The golden rule is: they're not as strong as everyone thinks they are, for whatever reason. This stops them interfering. Note that they'll probably use one of the justifications from everyone's previous suggestions, but it's a lie. If good (or 'good' *cough*), they're still an effective deterrent for BBEG - who will slowly ramp up his/her/their plans as they realise the truth. This gives the players time to get stronger as they foil BBEG's increasingly brazen plans. The rest of my suggestions are variations on this.

Replacement: The NPC's are dead, and have been replaced by (Greater) Doppelgangers (who probably had to pick him/her off while weak) or their own Simulacrum or polymorphed anyone. They simply keep up the charade that they're a powerful NPC, for various (not necessarily bad) reasons.

Weakened: If the High Level NPC is severely permanently weakened somehow (e.g. permanent level drain, a curse they cannot break [divine in origin?]) and pretends otherwise.

Gilderoy Lockhart: They're not really powerful, they've just been taking credit for the works of others and possibly murdering them.

[Anderlith]

You could play them like the Doctor. They are off exploring the unexplored because they have the means (planeshifting & whatnot) & so they are gone a great deal, but they always seem to show up just when they need to.

[ArcGygas]

The campaign I'm currently running in my own homebrew world has plenty of high level NPCs who are busy doing various things. What they're busy doing varies from character to character, but just like normal people, they too have lives (albeit much, much cooler ones).

The Paladin King of Bahamut keeps a constant vigil over the Valley because he knows Tiamat and some others from his adventuring days would love nothing more than to see his homeland a smoldering crater.

The Clockwork Prince (Artificer) runs an entire city (that's the size of a country) through his various creations and laws. 99% of his time is now spent at a bar, under a pseudonym, or crafting new trinkets. The other 1% is making sure the city is running properly or having the PCs stop the BBEG.

The Kingdom of Zeal Galas is run by a Mage King who trains their successor upon reaching 20+ level.

Grand Emperor of Valorace had to compete with his brothers, sisters, and cousins for the title. They now run the second largest kingdom in the world.

Just a few examples of what NPCs of high levels do, and perhaps why they can't (or sometimes can!) help the PCs with their quests.

[kieza]

Mostly they're working on their own problems. I had a group once that had been in a FR campaign with another DM, and they were used to having godlike NPC's drop into every other session. (That DM liked DMPC's.) I managed to explain the difference IC, by giving them tavern tales: while they were on a quest to slay an evil lord of Faerie, lots of things were happening elsewhere.

--The nations of Waystone and Victas became embroiled in a war by proxy and dispatched "military advisors" to the protectorates that were duking it out. The party heard a popular song about two heroes, Colonel Arnold Williams and Commandant Arkady Tretyakov engaging in single combat during the climactic battle of the war.
--A dragon reached the "territorial and aggressive" stage of life and started burning towns in the dwarven highlands. A merchant got drunk and started talking about the treasures he'd seen carried down from its lair after Sir Valmouth and his boon companions killed it.
--Three members of the imperial court of Arcis Novis were assassinated by a Sanctean diplomat, who was challenged to a duel and killed by Father Orofino of the Reformed Order of the Merciful Lawgiver after it became apparent that he would not be brought to justice by normal means.

I usually write and mention two or three of these "tales of heroism" every time the party goes to a tavern. It helps give the impression that they aren't the only movers and shakers in the setting, and that they probably aren't nearly the toughest. (It may also help that the most powerful NPC's in my setting are only level 10 or so; I run with slow level advancement and give out other benefits like fame, property, contacts, and the occasional artifact or one-use uber-ability.)

[ILM]

In my campaign world, the party is currently trying to figure out why the sun won't rise anymore. There are a few very high level NPCs.
- Two are practically elemental forces rather than people. Day, night, whatever, they don't care. In fact, this state of affairs suits one of them quite well.
- One is the general of an army guarding a hotly-contested border. No way she can go off on an errand, especially when the situation puts the opposing forces at an advantage.
- One is the head of the foremost mage’s guild. He’s the one who hired the party to help, and he’s working on other related stuff while they adventure.
- One is an assassin and another is the leader of a thieves’ guild (also illusionist extraordinaire). Honestly, while they do have business to attend to, I can’t really come up with a solid reason why they wouldn’t be involved in saving the world, as the end of days would still be detrimental to their affairs. I guess I could pretend they’re off following their own leads or thwarting related (or not) side threats, but for the moment I think it more prudent to not mention them at all. It helps that they’re figures of the underworld and that the PCs wouldn’t really have any knowledge of them.

There are also a few medium-level NPCs (10-ish) but they’re all tied up in organizations and hierarchy and stuff.

[hewhosaysfish]

I want to run an Epic campaign now, where the PCs are saving the world from some Demilich who's trying to become a god or something (you know, the usual racket). And every day they're getting letters/Sending spells from ninth level adventures asking them to please help deal with the ogres/vampires/wyverns plaguing some county. And in every town they visit there'll be level 2 adventures who'll say things like "They could wipe out all those kobolds with one sweep of their hands. Why do we have to risk our lives? Obviously when you get to be so rich and famous and powerful, you mustn't think the peasants are worth your time."

See if the players are willing to take an afternoon out of their quest in order to scour a kobold-warren in exchange for 100gp and no xp. Or if they get really, really aggravated.

[Saph]

Generally I go with one of two solutions:

The PCs aren't saving the world: This is my preferred one. You don't get to save the world until you're very very high level. You get to save a village, or a city, maybe a country if it's something big. NPCs who don't live in said village, city, or country don't care all that much.

There's other stuff going on: There are lots of high-level NPCs and lots of high-level villains and lots of plots to destroy/save/take over/marinate/do-something-unpleasant-to the world. The PCs are the centre of the story, but they aren't the centre of the universe. Other things are happening and the NPCs are busy with that.