FUS RO DAH, or: You Can Tell I Have Been Playing Too Much Skyrim

[Veklim]

...or we could make Dragnborn a bloodline...

[The-Mage-King]

Although I'd agree on a basic level, I feel I have to disagree on principle. The thu'um feels more like psionic power than arcane, or at an outside edge, a fair bit like Truenaming or some sort of Bardic Music ability on steroids.

...You do know I meant "able to be learned like Wizards learn spells", and not "Vanacian casting", right? Spend gold/time to learn a shout, and all that.

I'm not very well versed with maneuvers, my group don't have a hardcopy of ToB, which means it's not used (house rule from many years ago, more habit than need now I guess). From what I do understand though, they could be a reasonable fit if you're using ToB. Personally I'd prefer an alternative system to be presented for Initiator users, since many people are like me and haven't taken it up.

Thing is... Most of this forum's posters know ToB. And LOVE it.


So why cater to the few who don't, instead of the majority?


Furthermore, I said like ToB. Not "Make it a discipline", but "like", in that there are distinct abilities, and they can be recharged with time.


As for the Dragonborn as bloodline thing... It does make sense, but... Doesn't feel right.

[Veklim]

...You do know I meant "able to be learned like Wizards learn spells", and not "Vanacian casting", right? Spend gold/time to learn a shout, and all that.

ah....no I didn't. That makes perfect sense then, yes.

Thing is... Most of this forum's posters know ToB. And LOVE it.

I DM for a group who don't/won't use it. The group is pretty big (7 regular players) so introducing new mechanics is not something I do lightly. Doesn't mean I can't reverse engineer it all anyhow, would just be nice not to have to.

As for the Dragonborn as bloodline thing... It does make sense, but... Doesn't feel right.

Yeah, know what you mean. Figured I'd throw it out there anyhow, was being persistent in the back of my mind!

[Morph Bark]

Furthermore, I said like ToB. Not "Make it a discipline", but "like", in that there are distinct abilities, and they can be recharged with time.

Yeah, let's not make it into a discipline. I made a Truenaming-based one before and it ended up weird.

Making them like magical location "loot" sounds great though! Me and a friend actually came across those yesterday while looking for magic items for our characters. Perhaps make it so that you can pick one Shout for free (up to one with a requirement of 4 ranks) even if you are not a Dragonborn, but all the rest would be stuff gained from magical locations (DMGII for those unfamiliar with the concept). Of course, you would only gain the Word of Power if you satisfied the minimum Dragonspeak skill requirement prior to coming there, but you can return at any time once it is high enough if you don't get it the first time.

[Veklim]

OK, have been pondering this for the last couple of days now. I'm assuming the skill requirements are pretty much decided upon so now it's a case of how to work the mechanic. There should be some powers like Whirlwind, Unrelenting Force and the Frost/Fire breath which have lower requirements, starting from essentially the word go. That would be best made as a 4 skill ranks/word level requirement. If you follow the logic then you would get the second word of these powers at 8 ranks and the third would require 12. Nice and easy. Trouble comes when you get to the slightly snackier ones like Etherealness, Slow Time, Freezing Breath, etc.

My thought is this; each word/s which are deemed higher level and therefore require more skill ranks could have a modifier to the basic 4,8,12 progression. Freezing Breath (which I imagine would do a small amount of cold damage and render the target immobilised for a certain period of time) could have a +1 modifier to it, meaning you add this number to the starting requirement, and to each subsequent gap making it 5,10,15. Something like the Etherealness power would be maybe a +3, making it's progression 7,14,21.

Using this method, certain very powerful words, especially the 3rd instalment thereof, would be beyond a non-epic character's reach without some sort of help, which has already been played upon with the paragon class, whereby you reduce the requirements, making only certain focused builds capable of reaching the higher powers, but essentially keeping all words open to attainment eventually for any character.

Just a thought.

[Morph Bark]

OK, have been pondering this for the last couple of days now. I'm assuming the skill requirements are pretty much decided upon so now it's a case of how to work the mechanic. There should be some powers like Whirlwind, Unrelenting Force and the Frost/Fire breath which have lower requirements, starting from essentially the word go. That would be best made as a 4 skill ranks/word level requirement. If you follow the logic then you would get the second word of these powers at 8 ranks and the third would require 12. Nice and easy. Trouble comes when you get to the slightly snackier ones like Etherealness, Slow Time, Freezing Breath, etc.

My thought is this; each word/s which are deemed higher level and therefore require more skill ranks could have a modifier to the basic 4,8,12 progression. Freezing Breath (which I imagine would do a small amount of cold damage and render the target immobilised for a certain period of time) could have a +1 modifier to it, meaning you add this number to the starting requirement, and to each subsequent gap making it 5,10,15. Something like the Etherealness power would be maybe a +3, making it's progression 7,14,21.

This was roughly my intention/idea, yeah, though with some progressions I was a little wobbly to fit it more to standard DnD levels of power (hence why I tried to fit the breath weapons to Dragonfire Adept levels of power).

I have acquired some more Words of Power that I will put up soon. I will prolly change up Fire/Frost Breath some as well.

[pffh]

If you still need a video with all the shouts and the different effects of 1, 2 or 3 words I've got almost all the shouts (only missing the last word on 2-3 shouts) and should be able to cobble something together after the 16th.

[Morph Bark]

If you still need a video with all the shouts and the different effects of 1, 2 or 3 words I've got almost all the shouts (only missing the last word on 2-3 shouts) and should be able to cobble something together after the 16th.

If you could make a vid of that, that'd be awesome, especially with all levels of power they got. I've got exams on the 14th and 15th, so that's perfect.

[Igneel]

Good summary fella.
I try to do what I can to help the cause.

I'm personally against this for the very reason you state. The idea with this seems to be for an openly accessable option, free for any and all who may wish to invest in it. This could potentially become a 'Grey Beard' PrC if it's wished though, there's certainly room for that within the original concept.
Agreed, I believe that for "our" goal that it should be more open to others to gain so a Base class would be out of the question. A PrC for 'Grey Beards' seems to be at the very least much more reasonable.

This is a better idea, but still a little shaky on the grounds of feat economies, some builds having far less to throw about than others. If it were me, I'd be making the 1st level only feat a boost to Thu'um rather than a requirement. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about the idea of reducing skill requirements for new words, this would be a good start for the feat, perhaps also allow the 3rd level of each power only to those with the feat?
I like the idea of making the 1st level only feat a boost rather then a requirement. At the very least it would be sort of like a feat for the Binder that either gets rid of a certain condition that lowers your result, or gives you a boost. I can't remember either way...
As for the 3rd level for each power, that also seems reasonable in that some Shouts can be as strong as certain spells but are almost at-will, but in order to gain said power you would need to use up some of your feats. Maybe make it a bonus feat for the 'Grey Beard' PrC?

.......ok, you lost me now. I have no clue about either of these things.....
Truthfully I was mostly quoting what someone else wrote.
Shape Soulmeld [Magic of Incarnum] and Martial Study [Tome of Battle] I know at least are feats that makes it so that someone without levels in relevant classes like the Totomist [Incarnum] or Swordsage [Battle] and be able to do such actions like using Chakra or Maneuvers. Albeit only barely compared to a first level.

I like this option a lot, but wonder how one would balance it without an LA. I also don't see this option existing at the same time as the feat. They should be doing roughly the same thing as I've said above for the feat so having both would be redundant.
Agreed on existence with the feat, we can't really have both a template and a feat that more or less grants the same ability [or the lowering the DC of Shouts stacking]. If we chose to have one or the other that would make more sense, but how does one justify giving a potentially very good ability worthy of a class all on its own without giving some sort of LA?

This is a rather sweet 'n' simple little class, and I personally feel it's an easier fit than the template in some respects. It also serves to effectively cut out the chance for any pure caster class to gain full use of Thu'um without sacrificing some of their high-end spellpower, and I approve of this fact A LOT!
I only became aware of it after searching this thread for things that people suggested and noticed a past thread was edited some. Thought it should be brought out of the darkness.

Nice idea, but I've already aired my veiws on this so I shalln't repeat myself!
Again, I have to agree that it would be nice, but I don't think it fits.

As far as I see it, the first thing which needs to be done is the Dragonspeak skill itself, once that's fleshed out and the skeletal mechanics start emerging it should be much easier to figure out a balanced and multi-path accessable method of implementation.
Rightly pointed out. If your going to build a ability based on a skill maybe the skill should be constructed some more before going further? After that then it should be easier to work on other bits and pieces.

EDIT:
I'm leaning more and more towards the opinion that Thu'um should be Charisma based as a starting point. Considering the flavour, fluff and in-game mechanics, Charisma is a good fit, and gives classes like the Sorcerer or Bard a really interesting place to shine which actually fits well with their own fluff in the books. The Grey Beards should be using Intelligence, so you'd offer that as a first level thing for their PrC (if indeed one emerges), and the Dragonborn template/paragon class (whichever wins out popularity wise) should have the option of switching it to Constitution. Sounds convoluted but I honestly think it fits flavour and mechanics better than trying to tie it to any one stat.
As it stands this seems to make really good sense. Of the four possible stats that could be used for using Shouts [Con, Wis, Int, Cha] Cha seems to be the best 'blanket' stat. Int is more then definitely a Grey Beard stat, and for more warrior types to the Wizard could use their Con as well with the Template/Paragon. Wis sadly doesn't seem to fit in this at all.

Ideas:

Make Shouts like magical location rewards. Might be neat.
Make Shouts like spells for wizards, with the exception that anyone with the right feat can learn 'em.
Make Shouts like maneuvers- they need a feat to learn, and have a refresh time.
Make Shouts something else.

Greybeard PrC is a good idea.

-Magic Locations: Interesting proposal, course this almost sounds like your also wanting to re-create the whole world as a campaign setting. [not that i blame ya]
-Like spells: Right feat would be best, maybe even a couple of feats.
-Like Maneuvers: Again, this could work with the exception that only people that use it or willing to use it could have access. I'm personally another person that doesn't use it, but having spent some time on these forums have seen a growth in material that uses the resource/builds on it. Each to their own I suppose.
-Something else: BRILLIANT!!!

...or we could make Dragnborn a bloodline...

Do people even use Bloodlines? I think I've seen only one player in all my games I've played/run requested to use it.

If you still need a video with all the shouts and the different effects of 1, 2 or 3 words I've got almost all the shouts (only missing the last word on 2-3 shouts) and should be able to cobble something together after the 16th.

Did a quick search/watch for such existing videos. Thus far they all seem to be using some form of mod/cheat that shortens the recharge time, but they all show a good demonstration of the Shout.

All Skyrim Dragon Shouts 1/2*
All Skyrim Dragon Shouts 2/2*
[*These two use Console Command to shorten the Recharge, and don't show the last Shout 'Dragon Call' but give a short summery of what most do, the words used in each, and even a translation.]

Skyrim - All Shouts
[Shows all Shouts including 'Dragon Call', but uses God Mode and more then likely the same Console Command for shortening recharge time.]
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Updated List

Thoughts on how to implement this thus far [If I forget any 'Shout']:
*Class with 'Draconic' Speak abilities
*First level feat only to grant access, able to take any and all Shout feats you meet prerequisites afterwards.
*Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart vest or Martial Study-like ability without actually being in classes that use abilities.
*Some sort of 'Dragonborn' template that grants entry to usage.
*Racial Paragon Class
*Skill Tricks
*Magic Location reward
*Like Spells/Powers
*Like Maneuvers
*'Dragonborn' Bloodline
*Something else

[Hazzardevil]

Bloodlines are strange and broken things, that's why they aren't used often.

I won't go into much detail on bloodline cheese but here's the gist of it.
Bloodline levels stack with any classes for anything based directly off class level , so a level 5 binder with 3 levels of Bloodline would bind as a level 8 binder. Add in a single level of a binding prestige class and that adds up to a level 12 binder, that would be a level 6 binder binding as a level 12 binder, then would gain another 2 effective binder levels for more levels of binder or the prestige class, and would then gain another 4 effective binder levels for any different binding prestige classes.

[Dsurion]

Has any more work been done on this?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Has any more work been done on this?

Doesn't seem to be.

My preference would be to make the shouts into utterances, each with three levels. Maybe whip up a gish-type prestige class to go along with them.

[Amechra]

I'm gonna chime in and say that all published Skill Tricks are 1/ENCOUNTER, not 1/day; in addition, you could take the idea that you can learn ANY NUMBER of shouts; there could be a note that says that Thu'um doesn't count towards maximum skill tricks.

Or have the ability to use Thu'um be a skill trick; you would have to learn words yourself, and then you could essentially Shout 1/encounter, unless you took the PrC, which could set it up for another 1~2 times per encounter...

[Veklim]

Hrm, are we talking about hijacking the thread and continuing this brew...? Not complaining or anything, but we should probably tell Morph...

[Morph Bark]

Hrm, are we talking about hijacking the thread and continuing this brew...? Not complaining or anything, but we should probably tell Morph...

When my exams were finally over, I couldn't find the thread again, and after that it was Christmas so I kinda just forgot about it. Now I got some exams coming up real soon again, so I dunno how much I can 'brew on this myself, though I prolly could make the shouts themselves and leave the various ways to implement it, as well as PrCs, classes and so on, up to you. There were already others 'brewing some things like that in this thread and I didn't mind at all, so feel free to continue.

[Veklim]

Sweet, I guess it can coalesce independantly then

You heard the man!

...all published Skill Tricks are 1/ENCOUNTER, not 1/day

True, although I seem to remember a proviso along the lines of 'unless otherwise stated' which may/may not be relevant.

...in addition, you could take the idea that you can learn ANY NUMBER of shouts; there could be a note that says that Thu'um doesn't count towards maximum skill tricks.

This implies that skill tricks are not the way to go for Thu'um, not that we should change what a skill trick is or how it works, just to crowbar a concept into an existant shell.

Or have the ability to use Thu'um be a skill trick; you would have to learn words yourself, and then you could essentially Shout 1/encounter

Which puts it at loggerheads with the idea of Thu'um from Skyrim itself, since each power has a different cooldown duration, which progresses with the number of words used.

I don't think skill tricks are a good fit, they certainly serve as a good reference point for power, utility and perhaps even cost, but they do not represent the mutability or scaling required for Thu'um itself.

We do seem to have a basic structure on mutual consensus, in that any character could learn to use this to some extent without too much investment (no multiclassing, self-crippling or shenanigans should be necessary), the 3rd word of each Thu'um should be restricted to only certain focused builds, and that there should be knowledge, feat, PrC and fluff support to make this a viable 'overlay' to the system.

The more I think about this, the more I'm reminded (possibly obscurely) by 'pneuma' from Weaveworld. I'm also repeatedly seeing an almost psionic edge to the whole idea of Thu'um, the 'power of voice and intent as one'. Not suggesting we make it psionic, but by looking at how psionics are like magic, but not magic, perhaps it could help us see how Thu'um would interact with existant powers and abilities?

[Amechra]

EXTREME BRAIN FLASH!

Dragonmarks. Eberronian Dragonmarks.

I don't know how we would use them, but EBERRONIAN DRAGONMARKS!

[TravelLog]

Hey guys. I put together a Dovahkiin class you guys might be interested in checking out. I did Shouts a bit differently though. I'd love to get feedback from fellow Skyrim lovers.

...also Dragonmarks could be very interesting. Very interesting indeed.