[Star Wars] The Dark Times is rapidly becoming my favourite era of play

[Kiero]

I'm not even remotely traditional in my Star Wars tastes; I could take or leave the original trilogy and prefer the prequels by a fair margin. I am quite comfortable with a lot of the EU material and have no problem with treating entire swathes of it as canon. But I also like playing in eras which are relatively light on said canon, allowing us to be a little more selective on what actually applies.

What is possibly contradictory is that I like my wuxia-powered Jedi, but I also like not having them everywhere doing everything. That's one of the strong appeals of the KotOR games, that most of the Jedi are gone, but not completely. It is perhaps through KotOR 2 that I've grown to appreciate the Dark Times, namely the 15-20 year period between the two trilogies chronologically. It's also the era in which The Force Unleashed takes place, though I'm less keen on the upper limit that places on the power level of Force-users.

The Jedi have been brought low and the Republic overthrown, but there's still a lot of their infrastructures and allies around the place. They're tossed into the mix with former enemies of the Republic, such as former Separatists who don't believe they were defeated, and rogue Jedi on the run. There's both the grimness of the Empire overtaking the Republic, but also the hope that it hasn't consolidated its hold yet, and there might still be a way to defeat them. Everything is somewhat fragile and changeable.

Now you may be wondering why I wouldn't simply go with the classic Rebellion era, but for me that's too closely tied with the original trilogy, its characters and canon. The elephant in the room is how you deal with the central characters of the OT, the Dark Times allows me to completely sidestep that since most of them are still children and basically irrelevant. There also isn't a monolithic Empire firmly in control of the galaxy acting as the stock bad guy. Similarly, a unified Rebel Alliance is less interesting to me than a nascent movement that doesn't yet have any formal structure beyond some idealists sharing common cause. Not only that, there's the chance to get the PCs in before the OT characters as the major agents for setting up the Rebellion that would later defeat the Empire.

Lastly, I can still draw upon all sorts of things from the prequels, since the Clone Wars is only recently finished. That means Jedi PCs in particular, but also Antarian Rangers, clones who aren't on board with the new regime and so on. It's for this reason I largely prefer the earlier end of the era, rather than later which starts to bleed into the classic Rebellion era.

In RPG terms, there hasn't been a lot for it. There's the Dawn of Defiance campaign and The Force Unleashed sourcebook for Saga Edition. That's pretty much it. Which again is nice, since it leaves lots of blank areas to be filled in.

So, anyone else finding this an appealing period in which to set their Star Wars games?

[Yora]

I like the KotOR era, for similar reasons. Unless you're playing during Darth Malaks campaign, you have a lot of freedom cruising the galaxy to explore remote planets, possibly as lone Jedi not tied up with the Council or a galactic conflict.

[Velaryon]

I've found that my favorite era in which to play Star Wars is an alternate timeline of the KOTOR-era, which my group established in a campaign that derailed the whole storyline of the games before Revan's fall to the dark side ever became widely known. Since I never played the KOTOR video games, I have no particular attachment to their storyline and I like what my group did to it.

Since the original campaign, we have played two or three subsequent campaigns set in the aftermath of that time, with completely new characters. The GM who ran that game has also played in that same continuity with other groups including players who were not involved in the first game. I can only imagine what they must think of the story.

[Thane of Fife]

Hmm, my tastes are pretty different from yours (I like the OT and am less interested in the PT, and even less interested in EU, especially Old Republic stuff), but I agree that the Dark Times are a pretty sweet period in which to place a game, and would probably be my choice if I were running one.

I'm very attracted to the idea of a game where the PCs are all padawans, their masters dead, on the run from the Empire. I think you could get some interesting dynamics with people being raised according to a strict doctrine, who suddenly have their teachers taken from them. I've even done some light work on a system for it.

[Yora]

I think the Appeal of KotOR is actually the relative lack of background material. The KotOR era is just a regular size setting, slightly leaning towards smalish.
But the Empire era is just massive! I don't think anything can hold a candle to that. While it provides a GM with lots of material to work with, it also means lot of stuff the players expect to be part of any game, which is also quite limiting in many respects.

[Lost Demiurge]

I prefer playing in either the Old Republic or post-Palpatine eras, myself. More room to do things, don't have to worry about canon quite as much.

I actually just pitched a game to my group, recently...

A long time ago,
in a galaxy far, far
away...

EPISODE A: THOSE WHO REMAIN

Ten years have
passed since the
Battle of Endor and
the death of
Emperor Palpatine.

The law-abiding
citizens of the
Empire hold a
dwindling few systems
against the growing
aggression of the
New Republic.

Under the leadership
of Supreme Commander
Pellaeon,the Empire,
now called the
"Imperial Remnant"
by outsiders, struggles
to maintain control of
the few systems they
have left, with dwindling
resources, personnel,
and hope.

If order is to be restored
to the galaxy, then the
Moffs of the remaining
worlds must be united.
But Supreme Commander
Pellaeon is new to his
position, and many of the
previously united Moffs and
warlords see an opportunity
to gain power at the expense
of their old rivals.

One Moff, Praxis Mal,
seeks to seize control
and become the next
emperor, and he is willing
to undertake anything
to achieve his usurpation...


Think a cross between Shadowrun and Firefly, with a team of ill-equipped special ops types, a few half-trained "emperor's hand" style sith-lite types, and a couple of random smugglers and hired fringe types working for the lesser evil of the more lawful Imperials. Always scrabbling to supplement non-existent funding, pulling cold-war-esque spy jobs against the New Republic, raiding manufacturing worlds to keep an increasingly worn-down fleet of Star Destroyers in parts, that sort of thing. Oh, and can't forget the internal politics, too... The challenges of keeping the Moffs cooperative ALONE is gonna keep me in plot ideas for quite some time once we start...

[Noedig]

Currently in the final preparatory stages of a Dark Times game here on the boards that Sylvre Phire is DMing. It's a double blind good vs evil game, and it is shaping up to be all kinds of awesome.

[Dienekes]

Completely different universe that happens to have Jedi, Sith, bounty hunters, wookiees, smugglers, and X-Wings.

I don't like getting bogged down in pre-existing canon. Partially because one of my players is a SW nut who knows everything about the canon, and partially because the more I learn about the real canon the more I find it ridiculous. But then, in my opinion the only SW movie that was legitimately good was Empire Strikes Back, though the original was enjoyable.

Now in my universe I guess what I run is most similar to the fall of the Republic of the prequel trilogy.

[Pronounceable]

Completely different universe that happens to have Jedi, Sith, bounty hunters, wookiees, smugglers, and X-Wings.

And there's your correct answer. SW should be gutted and left to die bleeding in the dust while you construct a better universe with the awesome bits you ripped out from its insides: Force, lightsaber, the original Darth Vader, Han Solo, TIE fighter, stormtroopers, Boba Fett's armor.

[Dr. Roboto]

I agree. The Dark Times make for a nice change from the usual space opera to something more gritty. Also, the inevitable wanted Jedi on your team makes for a good plot hook.

Alternatively, just make it an Infinities game. Take a turning point in SW history, especially duels, and change the outcome. The Death Star destroyed Yavin IV/Vader died before Palpatine could cyborg him/Luke fell to the dark side.

Then, take the changes to their logical conclusion. Maybe the Rebellion never formed, or the CIS won the Clone Wars, or there are no more Jedi, but for real this time. Boom, any characters are now much different than in canon, and any future canon is invalid.

[Vknight]

I'm I say take the best leave the worst.
Jedi should be all powerful but don't need to show it. And even when they do it can be spectacular of as subtle a light breeze

So my personal favorite is actually in Kotor or Dark Times.
But my players are all over the place.
2 Like Clone Wars
1 Likes the era before Clone Wars(The 10years building up to it)
1 Like during the Rebellion
1 Likes Dark Times
1 Does not care and is neutral to Star Wars

[TheThan]

It sounds like you’re attracted to more than just ridiculously powered Jedi, that’s great. Anyway you mention that the classic era is too closely tied to the original trilogy. I understand; it’s a trap a lot of people fall into. People are so focused on what’s going on in the movies; that they forget that a starwars RPG is NOT ABOUT the characters the movies focus on. It’s about the player characters (which should be different from the main cast).

This trap is easy to circumvent, all you have to do is establish a campaign that doesn’t put them in the same places at the same time as the main characters. Give them a reason to go to different locations and different planets. The universe is much bigger than Tatooine, Hoth, Dagobah, and Endor, so let them explore the galaxy..

The problem is that people love being the badass Jedi. Well ok, I understand people like being special. But I found Han Far more interesting and cool than Luke. Sure Luke had all the cool abilities, but Han had a sidekick, a cool ship, and he got the girl. So I gravitate to scoundrels and the sort over Jedi.

[Crossblade]

First, I want to say I've never gotten to play SW:Saga. And it makes me sad. However;

I'm one of those people who are all over the place. I like...

Kotor Era: Lots of jedi, lots of peace, everything looks happy and pretty like Coruscant in Phantom Menace or Dantooine in Kotor 1, and then people are suprised and panic when the Sith show up. There's also Mandalorians.

Clone Wars: Lots of action, clone warriors are as awesome and well trained as they SHOULD BE, everyone loves smashing droids because there's no moral dilemma to do it.

Infinities: I'll reference the famous article, Star Wars Fans Hate Star Wars (link not original article, simply top google result, but has BOTH articles by Adam Summers)
The 'What If's and 'Should have's make for great stories, and can allow for PCs to enter the plot. I'd love to play in many scenarios.
What if Qui-Gon defeated Darth Maul and trained Anakin? Could the master rein in the kid's whiny side, making him the ultimate jedi?
What if Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan both died against Maul? What if the sith kidnap Anakin and train him?
What if the Jedi Counsel let Anakin be trained, but under a different master? Like Mace Windo.
What if Leia went to Tatooine? (I think a comic book series already did that)
What if Padme didn't die in child birth for no given reason?
What if Yoda and/or Obi-Wan train both twins from birth to be jedi?

Or any countless other ideas...

[Kiero]

I like the KotOR era, for similar reasons. Unless you're playing during Darth Malaks campaign, you have a lot of freedom cruising the galaxy to explore remote planets, possibly as lone Jedi not tied up with the Council or a galactic conflict.

I like KotOR a lot, but it can be a harder sell when players are only familiar with the movies. I particularly like the Mandalorian Wars or post-Dark Wars as kicking off points.

Hmm, my tastes are pretty different from yours (I like the OT and am less interested in the PT, and even less interested in EU, especially Old Republic stuff), but I agree that the Dark Times are a pretty sweet period in which to place a game, and would probably be my choice if I were running one.

I'm very attracted to the idea of a game where the PCs are all padawans, their masters dead, on the run from the Empire. I think you could get some interesting dynamics with people being raised according to a strict doctrine, who suddenly have their teachers taken from them. I've even done some light work on a system for it.

I'm not keen on an all-Jedi game, I think you get much more interesting play when there's a mixture of Jedi and non-Jedi. Especially if you're using a system that doesn't struggle to make them equivalent.

I think the Appeal of KotOR is actually the relative lack of background material. The KotOR era is just a regular size setting, slightly leaning towards smalish.
But the Empire era is just massive! I don't think anything can hold a candle to that. While it provides a GM with lots of material to work with, it also means lot of stuff the players expect to be part of any game, which is also quite limiting in many respects.

For me the appeal of KotOR is actually the background material that is present (two video games and a really good comic series) which flavours, but doesn't overwhelm the era. There's canon, but not loads of it.

I just don't find the classic Rebellion era appealing at all. I want nothing to do with Skywalkers in my games.

Completely different universe that happens to have Jedi, Sith, bounty hunters, wookiees, smugglers, and X-Wings.

I don't like getting bogged down in pre-existing canon. Partially because one of my players is a SW nut who knows everything about the canon, and partially because the more I learn about the real canon the more I find it ridiculous. But then, in my opinion the only SW movie that was legitimately good was Empire Strikes Back, though the original was enjoyable.

Now in my universe I guess what I run is most similar to the fall of the Republic of the prequel trilogy.

Meh, I don't see the point in billing something as Star Wars if you're going to toss out everything people understand to be Star Wars.

And there's your correct answer. SW should be gutted and left to die bleeding in the dust while you construct a better universe with the awesome bits you ripped out from its insides: Force, lightsaber, the original Darth Vader, Han Solo, TIE fighter, stormtroopers, Boba Fett's armor.

Again, why bother to call it Star Wars when it's really some sci-fi pastiche vaguely inspired by Star Wars?

I agree. The Dark Times make for a nice change from the usual space opera to something more gritty. Also, the inevitable wanted Jedi on your team makes for a good plot hook.

Alternatively, just make it an Infinities game. Take a turning point in SW history, especially duels, and change the outcome. The Death Star destroyed Yavin IV/Vader died before Palpatine could cyborg him/Luke fell to the dark side.

Then, take the changes to their logical conclusion. Maybe the Rebellion never formed, or the CIS won the Clone Wars, or there are no more Jedi, but for real this time. Boom, any characters are now much different than in canon, and any future canon is invalid.

As before, I prefer working with the existing canon rather than going Infinities. But I agree The Dark Times does make a nice change of pace. There's a lot more shades of gray, which for my money can make the contrasting black and white a little more palatable.

It sounds like you’re attracted to more than just ridiculously powered Jedi, that’s great. Anyway you mention that the classic era is too closely tied to the original trilogy. I understand; it’s a trap a lot of people fall into. People are so focused on what’s going on in the movies; that they forget that a starwars RPG is NOT ABOUT the characters the movies focus on. It’s about the player characters (which should be different from the main cast).

This trap is easy to circumvent, all you have to do is establish a campaign that doesn’t put them in the same places at the same time as the main characters. Give them a reason to go to different locations and different planets. The universe is much bigger than Tatooine, Hoth, Dagobah, and Endor, so let them explore the galaxy..

The problem is that people love being the badass Jedi. Well ok, I understand people like being special. But I found Han Far more interesting and cool than Luke. Sure Luke had all the cool abilities, but Han had a sidekick, a cool ship, and he got the girl. So I gravitate to scoundrels and the sort over Jedi.

Sorry, just not interested in the Rebellion/OT era at all. Nothing about it appeals. There's fugly tech everywhere (gods the ships and such in the OT are hideous compared to the PT), a super-powerful Empire makes a boring, monolithic threat and the Rebel Alliance is all but sorted. Not to mention there being no Jedi left and this bizarre notion that in barely a generation people could have forgotten the Republic and its defenders.

I have no interest in a Star Wars game with no Jedi in it, and I mean real Jedi, not some half-trained boy and some old men.

[gkathellar]

If I ever get the opportunity to run a Star Wars game, I'd rather set it somewhere isolated and different enough that I can pick and choose exactly what baggage I'd like to import. Possibly an area of the galaxy without any real hyperspace routes leading in or out of it, so that I can justify it being its own smaller system with its own internal politics and issues.

But I agree with you on the appeal of scarce Jedi: they're kind of a big deal, and you lessen that when you have too many of them (not to mention lessening the chance for others to shine). Note that I'm not adverse to having lots of force adepts — it's Jedi and Sith specifically that I prefer not to see too much of.

[Dienekes]

Meh, I don't see the point in billing something as Star Wars if you're going to toss out everything people understand to be Star Wars.

Again, why bother to call it Star Wars when it's really some sci-fi pastiche vaguely inspired by Star Wars?

As before, I prefer working with the existing canon rather than going Infinities. But I agree The Dark Times does make a nice change of pace. There's a lot more shades of gray, which for my money can make the contrasting black and white a little more palatable.

Because mostly I find that people do feel some thing is Star Wars if it has certain conditions, such as magic monks, lightsabers, and so on. And following canon really doesn't appeal to me as a GM or a player, since you already know how things are going to end as a player, especially around the Dark Times and Rebellion. And as a GM you are constrained in what you're allowed your imagination to show. I prefer morally grey that just isn't present in Star Wars when you have Sith that are literal card carrying villains.

Also I don't think I could ever seriously run in a universe where Jar Jar Binks becomes a general and a senator, teddy bears defeat the technologically advanced creme of the Empire, and the wise Jedi get defeated because apparently they're all idiots who won't investigate where an engineered army appeared from, and hid the potential saviors of the universe in a high profile political family and the home planet of the monster most likely to try and find them.

Now if you aren't bothered by some of the silly canon, and like GMing in pre-established scenarios, more power too you. But it isn't for me.

[Kiero]

Because mostly I find that people do feel some thing is Star Wars if it has certain conditions, such as magic monks, lightsabers, and so on. And following canon really doesn't appeal to me as a GM or a player, since you already know how things are going to end as a player, especially around the Dark Times and Rebellion. And as a GM you are constrained in what you're allowed your imagination to show. I prefer morally grey that just isn't present in Star Wars when you have Sith that are literal card carrying villains.

Also I don't think I could ever seriously run in a universe where Jar Jar Binks becomes a general and a senator, teddy bears defeat the technologically advanced creme of the Empire, and the wise Jedi get defeated because apparently they're all idiots who won't investigate where an engineered army appeared from, and hid the potential saviors of the universe in a high profile political family and the home planet of the monster most likely to try and find them.

Now if you aren't bothered by some of the silly canon, and like GMing in pre-established scenarios, more power too you. But it isn't for me.

I never understand this notion that working within the bounds of the rather thin material provided for The Dark Times (or any other era outside the Classic one) is a "pre-established scenario" that results in you "knowing the end". Because frankly it's total nonsense.

Unless you have a game that's going to span the entire period between the two trilogies (which I find highly doubtful), you won't know the results "in the end" anyway. Not only that, there's huge blank spaces left to join the dots between how things are at the end of RotS and those things covered in ANH.

The real imagination doesn't come from using a total absence of any precedent (as you do if you go Infinities), but in working with those things established to be true in a way everyone can find fun. They are more often sources of inspiration, rather than meaningful constraints.

[Kurgan]

I like Star Wars but consider it a mix and match setting myself. Some things from the movies I like, I keep. Some things from the EU that I like? I keep it. Some other things I make up on my own that I like? I keep it.

Over the years I've built up my own preferred head-canon for Star Wars, which is what I run with.

For example: Prequel Trilogy - I cut out most of it, mix and match what I like, and set it farther back in the past.

In a setting as vast, varied, and inconsistent as Star Wars, just plugging things from current and past canon or picking sources that you like best works fine. Want to include everything? Fine. Want to just say Original Trilogy? Also works? All six movies plus Thrawn books? Works as well.

[Dienekes]

I never understand this notion that working within the bounds of the rather thin material provided for The Dark Times (or any other era outside the Classic one) is a "pre-established scenario" that results in you "knowing the end". Because frankly it's total nonsense.

Unless you have a game that's going to span the entire period between the two trilogies (which I find highly doubtful), you won't know the results "in the end" anyway. Not only that, there's huge blank spaces left to join the dots between how things are at the end of RotS and those things covered in ANH.

The real imagination doesn't come from using a total absence of any precedent (as you do if you go Infinities), but in working with those things established to be true in a way everyone can find fun. They are more often sources of inspiration, rather than meaningful constraints.

Alright, so if in the dark times your players desire to take down the Empire and come up with a brilliant plan to assassinate Palpatine, Vader, and the moffs. Are they allowed to go through with this and how does that change the established canon?

[Noedig]

I personally would allow them to try at the very least. It would pose interesting challenge to the players and myself. If they succeed, they've destroyed Palpatine and Vader, toppled the fledgling Empire, and paved the way to a glorious new republic, decades ahead of cannon. A fascinating possibility.

[TheThan]

Sorry, just not interested in the Rebellion/OT era at all. Nothing about it appeals. There's fugly tech everywhere (gods the ships and such in the OT are hideous compared to the PT), a super-powerful Empire makes a boring, monolithic threat and the Rebel Alliance is all but sorted. Not to mention there being no Jedi left and this bizarre notion that in barely a generation people could have forgotten the Republic and its defenders.

I have no interest in a Star Wars game with no Jedi in it, and I mean real Jedi, not some half-trained boy and some old men.

You’ve gotta realize that the empire tried VERY hard to destroy all knowledge of the Jedi, and what they couldn’t destroy they demonized. So the current generation either spread demonizing stories or simply didn’t tell their children of the Jedi. Thusly they grow up with believing they’re all myth and legend, or are horrible. Granted not everyone did this, enough people told their children of the good and great stuff the Jedi did so that people still believed in them. But they were a bit of a minority. If you repeat a lie enough times, people will start to believe it.

A key aspect of not letting the Empire become a faceless threat is to give it a face. Create an antagonist that the players have to deal with. For instance if they’re rebel operatives, throw them up against an agent of the imperial security Bureau. If they’re smugglers, give them an imperial customs officer to deal with. Give them a single imperial antagonist; make it this guy’s mission to bust the heroes permanently (either death or imprisonment). I mean, in the original trilogy, Darth Vader was the face of the empire. You can easily do the same thing with a completely original character.

For me, the badass Jedi powers get in the way of characterization. They feel like walking Deus Ex machine instead of actual characters. I also like the old style ships. The new ships are so sleek and smooth that I often times wonder where all the internal components for the ship is found (that's not to say they aren't pretty). In a PT ship, when the hyperdrive breaks down, the mechanic stands there behind a little box that’s supposed to be the ENGINE and explains how it’s broken; whereas with the falcon, Han or Chewie goes crawling around the guts of the ship trying to fix it. I like that one much better; it makes more sense to me than the other and gives the ship a more realistic feel (the falcon being a character in its own right). But that’s just my point of view.

That being said, if you still just aren’t interested in the original timeline, that’s fine, not everyone has the same interests and there’s no point arguing over personal taste.

[Thane of Fife]

I'm not keen on an all-Jedi game, I think you get much more interesting play when there's a mixture of Jedi and non-Jedi. Especially if you're using a system that doesn't struggle to make them equivalent.

In general, I would agree with you. A game where all of the PCs are of the same type is a very different beast from one with more varied characters. But for this theoretical game, the focus would be on what it means to be a Jedi without a Jedi Order, on how to survive being a wanted criminal, and what that does to morals and ideals, and on the ever-looming threat of the Empire. For the game I'm thinking of, I think that having all of the PCs be Jedi would be superior to the alternative.

Sorry, just not interested in the Rebellion/OT era at all. Nothing about it appeals. There's fugly tech everywhere (gods the ships and such in the OT are hideous compared to the PT), a super-powerful Empire makes a boring, monolithic threat and the Rebel Alliance is all but sorted. Not to mention there being no Jedi left and this bizarre notion that in barely a generation people could have forgotten the Republic and its defenders.

While I don't intend to argue with your opinions, I will say that, in my opinion, the two trilogies can be best appreciated by considering them more-or-less completely unrelated. They don't fit together worth beans, and I don't think either trilogy is improved in any way by attaching it to the other trilogy.

[Seatbelt]

Never understood the worry about cannon and conflicting with the OT. The galaxy is a big place, and the Galactic Civil War was not just won by LLLHC. (Luke, Leia, Lando, Han, Chewie). If you want your players to participate in big events they can. How did Green Leader survive his attack run to cripple the Executer's bridge? The players in A-wings gave him cover. Who was piloting the other Rogues that helped slow the Empire's advance on Echo Base? The players. Who helped defend Yavin 4 with General Dodanna after the Death Star popped? The players.

Or if you don't want to deal with the main story arch at all, thats fine. How many planets are there the Empire occupied? How big is the Rebel Fleet? Who ELSE worked for Jabba (and as we learned from Decipher's card game, if you worked for Jabba you were probably plotting to kill him).

A map for Sins of a Solar Empire includes 171 named planets from the Star Wars canon. How many main characters visited even a fraction of those planets?

[LibraryOgre]

It comes down to how closely you want to be involved in the main story... and what happens if you fail.

Let's say you're part of the group taking out TIE Fighters while Red squadron makes its run on the trench. What happens when someone's lucky shot blows away a "funny looking" TIE fighter (that Wild Die just kept rolling 6s, even when you made him switch dice)? The series becomes a LOT different when Darth Vader accidentally buys the farm (or goes spinning helplessly off into space) before Han can come save Luke?

Personally, I like to find a nice chunk of the non-canon and make it my own. The big ideas are the same... Jedi, Sith, Wookies, etc.... but the planets are novel.

[turkishproverb]

I generally prefer to set things Just after The Heir to the Empire Trilogy, since it leaves the empire in a strong position but leaves the jedi re-emerging. Generally a good mix of potential features.

[Lord Raziere]

Ah, Star Wars. It was what inspired my own sci-fi setting that will be in my novels someday. but mine is so different now that one would barely recognize it as originating from Star Wars if not for some of the fantasy stuff thrown in.

so put me down as "prefers a universe inspired by, but so modified and different from Star Wars, that isn't really Star Wars anymore"