OOTS #824 - The Discussion Thread

[Rizzer]

In bonus strip #194a,

Spoiler

Show

he 1-shotted an ancient silver dragon (aka Xykon's zombie dragon) who Xykon and Redcloak were failing to damage. Xykon then killed him because, after earning all that XP, he was too overqualified for the position of Random Mook.

Ah, I see. "bonus strip", that means in the printed books only, right? lol nice touch giant, now I'm going to have to go and make the purchase ;p

[Wanderer]

An inversion of the typical Macguffin Delivery Service trick. Of course, this means most of the Underground will probably end up being brutally slaughtered when Xykon finally does track it down, but for the moment: hurray for the good guys!

[Zolem]

They could, but they might just regard this as another attack from the resistance. Then again, they might cast speak with dead on EVERY group attacked in the city, just to gather intel. I guess it depends on how regular these attacks are. And I just said the word "attack" in every sentence. Attack.

My thoughts exactly.

Xikon: "So they were killed huh? Any of their dead bodies put into humorous poses? No? Then why are you telling me this instead of combing the sewer for that amulet!?"

[jidasfire]

Surprised I'm the first one to suggest this, but the Resistance's immediate presence at this scene makes it highly suspect that this is Xykon's actual phylactery. I think it's possible that the resistance, having a generally good idea what said phylactery looks like from the various pooling of information between Hinjo, O-Chul, and themselves, may have made duplicates to use as bait to trap and kill large groups of hobgoblins.

[Garwain]

Just fling it in the rift. It's right above their heads and big enough not to miss.

[Ghostwheel]

Ahhh, the plot thickens.

Why do I have the nasty suspicion that the elves' racism will come back to bite them?

This should be interesting. I'll lay odds that, after all this time, the resistance is at least partially infiltrated by Redcloak's spies. Humans paid off, possibly, or under the effect of Dominate Person.

Another possibility would be if one of the hobgoblins survived the massacre via Invisibility, and survives to tell the tale.

Which means it probably won't be long before Xykon becomes aware of the phylactery, and shows up to reclaim it.

Given that there's no one in the comic who can stand up to Xykon in a toe-to-toe slugfest, it'll take some roguish sneakiness to keep the phylactery away from him.

Nicely done!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I am not going to disagree with you, and I am not going to read all ten pages of responses before I reply. So forgive me if I reiterate something that was already mentioned in this thread. So here goes:

THESE ARE ELVES!

They are the elves that an Elvish Kingdom sent to "liberate" an allied Nation-State from evil forces led by an epic-level Lich/Sorcerer. They might just have a plan. They might know what they are doing. They might have a Plan B if things go wrong. Since they are Elves, their plans may go all the way to Plan Z.

I like Elves.

[Ghostwheel]

Surprised I'm the first one to suggest this, but the Resistance's immediate presence at this scene makes it highly suspect that this is Xykon's actual phylactery. I think it's possible that the resistance, having a generally good idea what said phylactery looks like from the various pooling of information between Hinjo, O-Chul, and themselves, may have made duplicates to use as bait to trap and kill large groups of hobgoblins.

That wouldn't advance the story very much. The rule of drama argues against it.

[M.A.D]

Flinging the phylactery into the Azure City Gobbotopia's rift is still risking interception from goblin clerics, whom will definitely be stationed to guard it.

[derfenrirwolv]

So does xykon find out about this through raise dead, speak with dead, or animate tattling barber shop quartet ?

[Porthos]

Here's what I am trying to figure out. The Goblin party had spellcasters with them. So why didn't they cast Sending (from a scroll to get around the 10 minute casting time - there seems to be ample evidence that scrolls bypass the casting times within OotSVerse) immediately upon finding the phylactery? It's been established that it can be cast within the Cloistered area as long as it is originating from within. So that's not an excuse.

Well the obvious answer is: They weren't told to cast Sending (again from a scroll) the very second they found the phylactery. But, again, why? I mean, Xykon made it exceedingly clear to Redcloak (and presumably Jirix) just how important he felt this item was. And Redcloak/Jirix doesn't have to tell the searching parties just why something is so gosh darn important for immediate communications. Just that it is.

So, presuming this isn't some sort of plan to flush out the Resistance (which it might very well be), I am wondering just how pissed of Xykon is gonna be when he finds out his "little bauble" has fallen into danger again when it could have been easily preventable.

In fact, the more I think about how easily preventable all of this was, the more I am thinking something is not quite right here. To paraphrase a famous movie, it just seems a bit too easy to me.

[Burner28]

Nice!

[Othniel Edden]

:-/ If Xykon gets destroried I fear for the Azure City Underground!

[zoobie]

heh. that was alright...

[M.A.D]

Here's what I am trying to figure out. The Goblin party had spellcasters with them. So why didn't they cast Sending (from a scroll to get around the 10 minute casting time - there seems to be ample evidence that scrolls bypass the casting times within OotSVerse) immediately upon finding the phylactery? It's been established that it can be cast within the Cloistered area as long as it is originating from within. So that's not an excuse.

Well the obvious answer is: They weren't told to cast Sending (again from a scroll) the very second they found the phylactery. But, again, why? I mean, Xykon made it exceedingly clear to Redcloak (and presumably Jirix) just how important he felt this item was. And Redcloak/Jirix doesn't have to tell the searching parties just why something is so gosh darn important for immediate communications. Just that it is.

So, presuming this isn't some sort of plan to flush out the Resistance (which it might very well be), I am wondering just how pissed of Xykon is gonna be when he finds out his "little bauble" has fallen into danger again when it could have been easily preventable.

In fact, the more I think about how easily preventable all of this was, the more I am thinking something is not quite right here. To paraphrase a famous movie, it just seems a bit too easy to me.

It was never said that they DIDN"T cast Sending the moment they found the phylactery. It was only said that they're turning it in for Jirix. In fact, since the leader of team Peregrine mentioned that the dead goblins won't be able to report them, it means that Team Evil would have known that someone had stolen the phylactery, in turn, means that they have already known that the phylactery have been found.

[Tannhaeuser]

"That's probably why there are, like, seventeen types..."

[martianmister]

"That's probably why there are, like, seventeen types..."

What?

[Icedaemon]

Damn elven vermin murdering those poor hard-working hobgoblins!

[factotum]

Given the title of today's strip, wouldn't it have made more sense for the previous one to be called "Finders Keepers"?

[Lvl45DM!]

I really like that one eyed chick she always goes into battle with a smile on her face

[Warren Dew]

I am not going to disagree with you, and I am not going to read all ten pages of responses before I reply. So forgive me if I reiterate something that was already mentioned in this thread. So here goes:

THESE ARE ELVES!

They are the elves that an Elvish Kingdom sent to "liberate" an allied Nation-State from evil forces led by an epic-level Lich/Sorcerer. They might just have a plan. They might know what they are doing. They might have a Plan B if things go wrong. Since they are Elves, their plans may go all the way to Plan Z.

I like Elves.

I find it interesting that the elves and the humans are working at cross purposes here. The longer it takes for Xykon to get his amulet back, the longer he stays in Azure City and the more difficult the city is to free from the goblins. This is good for the elves, who presumably don't want Xykon focusing closer to the elven lands, but bad for the human resistance that just wants to retake Azure City.

[Kish]

Given the title of today's strip, wouldn't it have made more sense for the previous one to be called "Finders Keepers"?

That would have 1) warned that the phylactery was going to be stolen, and 2) resulted in a lot of people wondering, "Is that actually the phylactery, or is it just a random necklace?"

[martianmister]

This is good for the elves, who presumably don't want Xykon focusing closer to the elven lands, but bad for the human resistance that just wants to retake Azure City.

It's good for humans too. Xykon with Snarl's power is a danger for all.

[SlyJohnny]

Why are you all assuming they can just chuck the phylactery into the rift? Blackwing took the phylactery in really close, and may have even thrown it directly into the rift, and it just passed right through. Sure, the characters have been treating the rifts the same way they'd treat spheres of annihilation, but that was based on the assumption that the snarl would be active and aggressive about lashing out from the rift, which is old information; the snarl hasn't shown it's face at any of the rifts, and possibly has died, or chilled out in the past couple decades and taking up the creation of planets for a hobby, or something equally weird.

Here's what I am trying to figure out. The Goblin party had spellcasters with them. So why didn't they cast Sending (from a scroll to get around the 10 minute casting time

Sending is a 4th level cleric spell, and a 5th level wizard spell. They have thousands of hobgoblins, split into... what, a hundred groups, running around looking for this thing. Even though they seem to have enough spellcasters to have at least one accompanying every large team, it's highly unlikely that all their clerics are 7th level, and thus casting a 4th level spell from a scroll isn't an auto success.

Plus, they probably don't have the scroll-making spellcasters to quickly produce a scroll of sending for every 1st level cleric in the horde, and 700gp each spread over that many clerics is an expensive proposition.

[jere7my]

Why are you all assuming they can just chuck the phylactery into the rift? Blackwing took the phylactery in really close, and may have even thrown it directly into the rift, and it just passed right through.

It didn't pass through — it just missed. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0660.html

[bertoltus]

Why are you all assuming they can just chuck the phylactery into the rift? Blackwing took the phylactery in really close, and may have even thrown it directly into the rift, and it just passed right through. Sure, the characters have been treating the rifts the same way they'd treat spheres of annihilation, but that was based on the assumption that the snarl would be active and aggressive about lashing out from the rift, which is old information; the snarl hasn't shown it's face at any of the rifts, and possibly has died, or chilled out in the past couple decades and taking up the creation of planets for a hobby, or something equally weird.



Sending is a 4th level cleric spell, and a 5th level wizard spell. They have thousands of hobgoblins, split into... what, a hundred groups, running around looking for this thing. Even though they seem to have enough spellcasters to have at least one accompanying every large team, it's highly unlikely that all their clerics are 7th level, and thus casting a 4th level spell from a scroll isn't an auto success.

Plus, they probably don't have the scroll-making spellcasters to quickly produce a scroll of sending for every 1st level cleric in the horde, and 700gp each spread over that many clerics is an expensive proposition.

However, they could still have cast Dancing Lights.

[jidasfire]

That wouldn't advance the story very much. The rule of drama argues against it.

In and of itself, I suppose it wouldn't, but that is not to say it isn't an effective mislead to start a scene with. It manages to show us a number of plot elements, such as how the search is going, what the Resistance is up to, and it can lead into what may be the actual resolution of the phylactery plot. I'm not saying I 100% believe this theory of mine to be correct, but it offers a far better explanation for how the Resistance knew they were there than anything else. After all, it's absolutely protected from scrying, so they couldn't have found it that way. Also, if they had found Xykon's phylactery on their own, why even give the hobgoblins and therefore their significantly more powerful leaders a chance to discover its location? Why not just cast invisibility on their mage and chuck it in the rift quietly, thus keeping the hobgoblins searching effectively forever and either destroying or rendering vulnerable Xykon, then passing that info along to Hinjo? I also don't believe it's as simple as luck, since that's just bad storytelling.

[Cranica]

Not quite! The heroes who sealed the gates the first time around (at least, what we've seen of them) seem to be capable of doing it -- Soon more or less had Xykon and Redcloak up against the wall, and the others would have been just as experienced (if not moreso.) Lirian and Dorokan both had to be fought strategically, too.

Draketooth in particular might be able to stand up to Xykon in a fight, if he's still alive.

The Order of the Scribble were all Epic level, and are very possibly all dead. In any event, I can't see Girard being a match for Xykon and Redcloak together, given that they should both be quite capable of True Seeing their way through any illusion Draketooth can conjure up. Xykon is just as capable of Energy Draining Girard into oblivion as he was Dorukan. As for the fights with the others, those were at the doorstep of their own fortress (Dorukan) and in a consecrated throne room as an incorporeal spirit immune to Xykon's most powerful spells (Soon). I haven't read SOD, so I can't speak to Lirian.

Soon, in particular, had just about every advantage he could have hoped for: Consecrated throne room, incorporeality, Redcloak not being present to begin with, Xykon having spent high-level spells earlier (and probably taken some damage from Roy), the element of surprise, the fact that the paladins doubtless did some damage to Xykon before their deaths, AND an entire army of ghost paladins. Remove even one of those advantages, and Soon would have lost.

Is it wrong that I feel bad for the hobgoblins? They were just doing their jobs and they were having such a good day.

Not at all. A recurring theme in OOTS, especially with the hobgoblins, is underlings getting slaughtered for a plan outside their scope.

Also, I looked up abjurations that could protect the phylactery, and I came up with a really short list of effects outside of blocking scrying. Are there any that increase hardness of an object?

[Aquillion]

The Order of the Scribble were all Epic level, and are very possibly all dead. In any event, I can't see Girard being a match for Xykon and Redcloak together, given that they should both be quite capable of True Seeing their way through any illusion Draketooth can conjure up. Xykon is just as capable of Energy Draining Girard into oblivion as he was Dorukan.

Xykon said that Dorukan only lost because he was lured out of his dungeon, where he had most of his defenses. Draketooth, who seems much more practical, is unlikely to make the same mistake -- a fight with him will be much more like a fight with Soon, where Draketooth's established defenses will play a huge role.

(Assuming he's still alive, obviously, and that nobody else deals with him first.)

[The Pilgrim]

In fact, the more I think about how easily preventable all of this was, the more I am thinking something is not quite right here. To paraphrase a famous movie, it just seems a bit too easy to me.

Yep. Last time we seen Redcloak, he was very concerned at the information that they had elven insurgents in the City. I suppose he is not fond of leaving Gobbtopia without rooting out the Resistance first. Best way to do it? Give them the Philactery and, thus, force Xykon to erradicate them with extreme prejudice.

[Menarker]

Something occurred to me.

The most commonly mentioned "drawback" to this strip's attack was the "Speak with Dead" spell. The idea being that if one of Team Evil cast the spell on one of the killed searched party (under the assumption the bodies have not been disposed of in such a way to prevent this), then it would be a simple matter of learning that the phylactery was taken.

However, there is a crucial limitation. As I'll quote and bold relevantly from SRD...

You grant the semblance of life and intellect to a corpse, allowing it to answer several questions that you put to it. You may ask one question per two caster levels. Unasked questions are wasted if the duration expires. The corpse’s knowledge is limited to what the creature knew during life, including the languages it spoke (if any). Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive. If the creature’s alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive.

...

This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive. The corpse, however, cannot learn new information.

The spell doesn't allow the summoned spirit to just report anything in depth. It is like a genie whose wishes is to grant the knowledge that it knew during its lifetime and only that requested information. Team Evil has no reason to assume that particular search party was attacked for any unusual purpose. They knew there was insurgents (Elven and Paladins) in the city already and that this might have been one of their several raids of which to reduce the enemy population and cause panic and whatnot.

So unless Team Evil actually suspect the attack has special or unusual motives to the point they feel the need to cast the spell and then directly states something to the effect of "Why were you attacked" then it is unlikely the spell itself will be of any use.