Best way to explain mechanic optimization in game?

[HMS Invincible]

What's the best way to say that you only use turnIng attempts on weak numerous undead and not waste your action econOmy on singular high level undead? I want to say it in character but in a way that doesn't sound like I'm playing a game. I'm thinking that action economy will be called "faster to do X". No idea how to articulate the difference between zombie hoards vs death knight. This comes up often enough, where the mechanically best course of action is different from the most obvious course of action.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Uh... "Priest, hold that horde at bay! I will take the Death Knight myself!"

Why use logic when you can use emotion

[erikun]

"I am going to stand closer to the zombies than the death knight when turning."

Indeed, turn undead affects the closest undead first, so the target your turning applies to is completely determined by how close you are to them.

If you're trying to explain why your character is destroying zombies rather than trying to remove the death knight, then it's simply a matter of quickly cleaning out several targets with one action vs. possibly just delaying a single target with the same action. I'm not sure how wiping out nine opponents that are grappling and bothering the rest of the party when fighting the death knight would be a bad idea, in-character, for the cleric. (Your character likely knows they cannot hurt the death knight with their turning anyways.)

[HMS Invincible]

The problem is that I, the wizard with a good knowledge check, know. However, Player Newb B, a cleric, does not know. I guess the simplest thing I can do is just announce, in every combat with undead, whether or not they should turn it. Most of the time the answer should be no. Though it is kinda of funny, the cleric ignores turning on weak undead, and then uses turning on really strong undead.

I should have in game keywords for mechanical terms like the detect evil spell does. "It's an undead with a Strong (9-20 HD) aura, and is especially resistant (+6 against turning attempts) to turning!"

How about explaining the action economy such as why healing in combat isn't as useful as casting a nonhealing high level spell.

"I am going to stand closer to the zombies than the death knight when turning."

Indeed, turn undead affects the closest undead first, so the target your turning applies to is completely determined by how close you are to them.

If you're trying to explain why your character is destroying zombies rather than trying to remove the death knight, then it's simply a matter of quickly cleaning out several targets with one action vs. possibly just delaying a single target with the same action. I'm not sure how wiping out nine opponents that are grappling and bothering the rest of the party when fighting the death knight would be a bad idea, in-character, for the cleric. (Your character likely knows they cannot hurt the death knight with their turning anyways.)

Ah, I should explain the mechanics out of game, and then say some 1 liner in game so he understands what the best course of action is. Hmmm, I was hoping to avoid that, I'm not the best teacher and he has a habit of his eyes glazing over when I explain things. Either that, or there's some other problem...

[MesiDoomstalker]

"The [enemy] is very powerful! We don't have time to heal, smash him with your mace/blast him with a spell/etc! We can recover after he's dead!"

Exclamtions are always useful for getting a point across mid-combat.

[erikun]

Ah, I should explain the mechanics out of game, and then say some 1 liner in game so he understands what the best course of action is. Hmmm, I was hoping to avoid that, I'm not the best teacher and he has a habit of his eyes glazing over when I explain things. Either that, or there's some other problem...

If your wizard knows this and your cleric does not, then stating it in-game wouldn't necessarily be a problem. "If you turn the weak guys, you can destroy them and get rid of them permanently. You have a much harder time turning the strong one, and won't hurt it even if you succeed."

If the issue is that the player does not know how the ability works, then taking the time to explain it to them would be a good idea. There is a difference between a player knowing how an ability works and not using it effectively, and a player just not knowing how an ability works.

How about explaining the action economy such as why healing in combat isn't as useful as casting a nonhealing high level spell.

It depends on the spell. If a single spell will make a character immune to being hurt, or completely eliminate an enemy, then it is better than healing someone for only 1d8 HP.

On the other hand, a mere +2 AC is not going to help much for a character that is already badly injured. And providing some healing to get a character back up on their feet, guaranteed to be fighting and keep going, is better than a 50% chance of stopping a single opponent from killing them.


Really, the whole "If we fight only four fights at equal level CR a day then it is more practical to buff rather than heal and run through the fights quickly before the buffs run out and therefore every single fight we run in a game session it must be more practical to buff rather than heal" line of thinking is getting really old. There are good times to buff. There are good times to heal. Assuming that one will always be worthless is just ignoring a large number of situations where the 'best' option is not optimal or even desirable.

[Mastikator]

Uh... "Priest, hold that horde at bay! I will take the Death Knight myself!"

Why use logic when you can use emotion

I concur with this. Emotions are cooler than logic.

[Autolykos]

Even if the wizard doesn't know how turning works, "Last time you did..." is close enough to a valid argument that you can use it. Doesn't seem unreasonable, either. Every enemy can potentially kill you, so removing them ASAP is more important than just inconveniencing another one.

[Sutremaine]

I want to say it in character but in a way that doesn't sound like I'm playing a game. I'm thinking that action economy will be called "faster to do X".

"Hey! Cleric! We need to clear the battlefield! Take out those weak ones so we can focus on the real threat!"

Consider the in-game reasons for turning the zombies instead of the Death Knight. You might be able to kill the DK and you might turn it, but you'll still have to mop up the zombies (which will take time and might go wrong if they get a lucky shot in) and if you only turned the DK it'll likely be back once it stops being scared. On the other hand, turning the zombies will either kill them outright or send them out of the battle long enough to coordinate an assault on the heavy hitter. Those that are merely turned will probably be back, but their arrival will be spread out and one returning zombie is less problematic than one returning Death Knight.

And in the meantime the cleric can always try and turn the DK, but this time with fewer distractions.

[HunterOfJello]

I prefer for information to only be transmitted from one PC to another through in-game shout outs on the specific PC's turn.


As far as putting mechanics into play, characters know what their abilities do and usually have a good idea of the best way to use them. Clerics know that their Turning abilities work the best on weak undead and don't work as well on stronger undead. A way to best determine where the best place to stand when doing a turning check is to ask the DM what the undead look like, do some knowledge (religion) checks to get an overview of the different undead types, and then pick a spot. Guys dressed up like Bone Knights aren't going to be as easy to turn as human skeletons or kobold zombies.

[Jlerpy]

Yeah, I'd frame it as him using the radiant power of his faith to clear away the minions so you can avoid getting swamped, letting you focus on the key threat.

[Jlerpy]

Yeah, I'd frame it as him using the radiant power of his faith to clear away the minions so you can avoid getting swamped, letting you focus on the key threat.

[Jay R]

Appeal to his pride, not his logic. It works faster.

"Get the zombies first - you're so good at that!"

[Lysander]

"My powers will work best on these weaker foes!"

[vegetalss4]

"Large concentrations of necrotic energy can protect one of the vile undead against the holy light your faith allows you to channel. As such it would be better if you reserved the light for large groups of weak undead creatures, where the energy is more spread out, and refrained from using it against more singularly powerful exemplars of their vile kind"