OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

[Math_Mage]

Belkar: CE by Word of God, Word of Comic, and basic common sense--since when are conscience-free psychopaths and serial murderers not Evil?

Girard: Probably CE now, probably not CE originally, hence changed by Kraagor's death and Soon's perceived betrayal. Definitely Chaotic Crazy.

[Cirin]

3rd: Thor isnt on speaking terms with the other hierarchies, i remember at one point in the comic, Celestial tiger chews him out for giving durkon some spells. Simply put, although Durkon has a few spells he can spontaineously cast, he isnt allowed full divine might, because its only what Thor can slip our dehydrated dwarf.

Uh, no.

Of course Durkon can cast Resurrection. He did it for Roy.

Also, Tiger griped at Thor because Thor was going to answer Durkon's request during the Battle of Azure City for Divine Might to grant increased speed.

Thor already had bent rules about what spells do when the OotS was fighting the Linear Guild in Cliffport. Durkon used Control Weather to summon a thunderclap so strong it did sonic damage and shattered Leeky's animated-tree minions. That spell isn't supposed to do that.

Durkon asked again for a change to a spell so he could use Divine Might to run faster (since it makes him a size category larger, and thus longer legs) so he could save Hinjo from the assassins.

Tiger, presumably Lawful, didn't want Thor (apparently officially Neutral since Chaotic deities can't have Lawful Clerics by standard D&D 3.5 rules, but acts very Chaotic) to bend the rules for spells again, on his turf.

[t209]

What alignment do we speculate that the Draketooth clan has? Going with CN.

Nah! They look organized (Girard as god). Probably in Neutral Alignment.

Spoiler

Show

Serini had quite a crush on Gerard, if they somehow made a little half-halfling baby together V could have xx her eyes too. That would leave the last gate without it's defender. Although given the nature of her defense design, it might not matter so much.

Or she switch her love to Kragor and had a child with him (maybe belkar's parents could be her descendent who changed their family name).

[RebelRogue]

CN at best, possibly CE. Draketooth is clearly chaotic, providing a contrast to Soon's lawfulness. The modus operandus of fathering/mothering babies and then kidnapping them is pretty much an evil act, and I don't really see any good acts countering that atm, but we may in future strips.

[Particle_Man]

Belkar is CE, but he occasionally listens to his "better devil" and does some long term planning for the "greater him" as opposed to simply lashing out in a CE manner, and that listening sounds a little NE to me. So CE with a few NE tendencies, perhaps.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html

So what is the plane for CE/NE, anyhow? Tartarus? Well he would likely be happy fighting on either side of the Blood War, anyhow.

[Archwizard]

The plane for CE is The Abyss, home to the Demons.

[Particle_Man]

Oh yeah CE has Abyss, and NE has Hades, it is just that there are also "in between" plane and Tartarus/Carceri is in-between CE and NE on the Great Wheel, so would I think be where people go if they have a little NE in their CE. Maybe.

[ti'esar]

Belkar is CE, but he occasionally listens to his "better devil" and does some long term planning for the "greater him" as opposed to simply lashing out in a CE manner, and that listening sounds a little NE to me. So CE with a few NE tendencies, perhaps.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html

So what is the plane for CE/NE, anyhow? Tartarus? Well he would likely be happy fighting on either side of the Blood War, anyhow.

I wouldn't say that displaying rationality means Belkar has NE tendencies. Chaotic Evil does not inherently mean Stupid Evil - as I see it, Belkar has moved from the latter to the former, not from CE towards NE in any fashion.

[Forikroder]

Oh yeah CE has Abyss, and NE has Hades, it is just that there are also "in between" plane and Tartarus/Carceri is in-between CE and NE on the Great Wheel, so would I think be where people go if they have a little NE in their CE. Maybe.

theres no gray when it comes to determining someons alignment, theres no bein inbetween chaotic and neutral your either neutral or your chaotic

[Particle_Man]

theres no gray when it comes to determining someons alignment, theres no bein inbetween chaotic and neutral your either neutral or your chaotic

So you are saying that all of the "in between" planes on the Great Wheel are forever empty of souls?

[Red XIV]

"Laughably weak" because it didn't kill the Order, although it left Roy looking quite battered? Mm no. The member of the Order with the lowest hit points is documentedly able to survive a Meteor Swarm.

Given that every member of the Order would clearly have fewer hit dice than an Epic-level Paladin, yes. That explosion was indeed "laughably weak" if it was intended to kill Soon.

[Forikroder]

Given that every member of the Order would clearly have fewer hit dice than an Epic-level Paladin, yes. That explosion was indeed "laughably weak" if it was intended to kill Soon.

right but your assuming that it would have been possible for someone who specializes in Illusions to make a stronger explosion that could sit dormant for an infinite amount of time

[Kish]

right but your assuming that it would have been possible for someone who specializes in Illusions to make a stronger explosion that could sit dormant for an infinite amount of time

As well as the Order can't have had lucky rolls, and--also--that it would be significantly better for Girard's morals if the trap had "merely" been meant to kill any "fascist paladin lackies" Soon had sent, all of whom bar Miko and O-Chul would have had fewer Hit Dice than the Order.

[Particle_Man]

I wouldn't say that displaying rationality means Belkar has NE tendencies. Chaotic Evil does not inherently mean Stupid Evil - as I see it, Belkar has moved from the latter to the former, not from CE towards NE in any fashion.

Rational = order = lawful, I think. An irrational lashing out at Hinjo because his dog was cooler, for example, would be chaotic.

Also, there would be a certain symmetry in Belkar having a CE advisor a NE advisor and an (off-screen) CN Slaadi advisor). It would still leave Belkar mostly CE. The fact that the NE advisor won one round vs. the CE advisor would not produce a shift from CE all the was to NE anymore than V's familicide shifted him from N all the way to E. Or Miko's actions caused her to shift all the way from LG. :)

[rbetieh]

Nah! They look organized (Girard as god). Probably in Neutral Alignment.

Spoiler

Show

Serini had quite a crush on Gerard, if they somehow made a little half-halfling baby together V could have xx her eyes too. That would leave the last gate without it's defender. Although given the nature of her defense design, it might not matter so much.

Or she switch her love to Kragor and had a child with him (maybe belkar's parents could be her descendent who changed their family name).

I thought Crayons in time stipulates that Serini isn't defending the gate at all. She just put the biggest meanest monsters she could find in a dungeon and went off adventuring again.

[t209]

I thought Crayons in time stipulates that Serini isn't defending the gate at all. She just put the biggest meanest monsters she could find in a dungeon and went off adventuring again.

Maybe she carried (Possible) kragor's child and she gave the child to bitterleaf family (or his ancestor).

[Forikroder]

speaking realistically though would it be at all possible for any spell to kill soon in one hit?

hes an epic level paladin most instant kills would offer a fort save which he would apss with flying colours and he probably even has a high enough reflex and will save to make any DC needed so im sure Girard realised the bomb wouldnt have killed Soon

[Flame of Anor]

Maybe she carried (Possible) kragor's child and she gave the child to bitterleaf family (or his ancestor).

...and gave all the trees epilepsy, causing them to be enraged at all descendants of dwarves; whence Durkon's paranoia.

[thepsyker]

You know with all this talk about how Girard's family kidnapping their children and robbing people means that they can't possibly be good I'm feeling the urge to play devil's advocate a little and point out that if you tally up the morally questionable actions taken by Girard and Soon's followers Girrard's side of the tally isn't the one with all the murdered children on it. Just throwing that out there.

It might also be worth mentioning that we don't know how typical Orren's approach to having children is for the family, we just know that the Girard clan winds up with the kids from their various affairs. It is possible that some of them take a less evil approach to it. This would of course be easier for the females in a way in that they could just sleep around casually until they get pregnant and then head home/ There are ways the men could be a bit more upfront with the situation as well. They could perhaps find some one who would be willing to have their child in exchange for pay, perhaps justified with some sob story about a barren wife or perhaps him and his boyfriend just want to have a kid. I'm not saying even I buy these possibilities, but they are there even if they are rather flimsy.

[factotum]

Maybe she carried (Possible) kragor's child and she gave the child to bitterleaf family (or his ancestor).

If she did then Belkar would currently be dead--Familicide, remember?

[RMS Oceanic]

I don't see why everyone assigns a cult-worship of Girard to his family. The "halo" could just be an indicator that "this is the guy who built this temple", or possibly-but-less-likely a "this guy is still alive" divination indicator.

[Dwy]

If she did then Belkar would currently be dead--Familicide, remember?

I think the post you were responding to tried selling the Idea that:
Kraagor, the dwarf, who we know next to nothing of + Serini, who at least at a time had a crush on a party member who was not called Kraagor = Belkar.

As such, Belkar would most likely not be related to any Black Dragons.

Just clarifying, not buying into that one until I see a beard on Belkar's face myself.

[St Fan]

He kills for XP, regardless of the alignment of the target, a neutral attitude.

Now, I've seen lots of weird things on this forum, but that probably take the cake.

Killing for XP, regardless of the alignement of the target = Evil.

Always. No justification possible.

And besides, it's also metagaming, which is a sin roleplaying-wise as well as alignement-wise, meaning any good GM will tell you to stop.

[Palthera]

Now, I've seen lots of dumb things on this forum, but that probably take the cake.

Killing for XP, regardless of the alignement of the target = Evil.

Always. No justification possible.

And besides, it's also metagaming, which is a sin roleplaying-wise as well as alignement-wise, meaning any good GM will tell you to stop.

Yes, killing for XP is evil, however, it's not metagaming in OotS because in their world, XP and Hit Points are as real as fingers and more real than noses. :)

[M.A.D]

CN at best, possibly CE. Draketooth is clearly chaotic, providing a contrast to Soon's lawfulness. The modus operandus of fathering/mothering babies and then kidnapping them is pretty much an evil act, and I don't really see any good acts countering that atm, but we may in future strips.

Girard and his clan was doing a Good deed, defending the existence of the world, but the way they carried out this mission has Evil tendency. Girard obviously disliked Lawful types, and yet the way he defended his fate could be described as none other than "systematic", with traditions of kidnapping children and raising them. Also, they have a charted schedule for casting spells.

With that, I'd say Girard is True Neutral

[oppyu]

Girard and his clan was doing a Good deed, defending the existence of the world, but the way they carried out this mission has Evil tendency. Girard obviously disliked Lawful types, and yet the way he defended his fate could be described as none other than "systematic", with traditions of kidnapping children and raising them. Also, they have a charted schedule for casting spells.

With that, I'd say Girard is True Neutral

Is there a chaotic way to organise a complicated series of illusions?

[factotum]

Is there a chaotic way to organise a complicated series of illusions?

Chaotic does not mean "disorganised". Case in point: Shojo was Chaotic, yet he was perfectly capable of ruling a city of thousands of people--not to mention putting together the carefully-organised show trial to allow him to use the Order behind the backs of his paladins.

[LadyEowyn]

I think people are misunderstanding Chaotic. It doesn't mean "irrational" or "unable to plan" or "unfocused", it means valuing personal liberty over institutions and law and protocols, and distrusting authority. Haley's Chaotic and she still ran the Resistance for a good while and made sure it was in good hands before she left.

There's little question that Girard was Chaotic. We've got some actions that point to Chaotic Good (sacrificing any semblance of a normal life to protect the gate) and some that point more towards Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil (spousal abandonment and taking the children; setting up a trap to kill paladins). On the whole, I'd say that averages out at Chaotic Neutral - if they were CE, they wouldn't be spending their lives protecting the Gate, but their methods are too dubious for CG.

[Conuly]

I don't see why everyone assigns a cult-worship of Girard to his family. The "halo" could just be an indicator that "this is the guy who built this temple", or possibly-but-less-likely a "this guy is still alive" divination indicator.

These people lived in a compound consisting only of blood relations. They propagated a new generation by having affairs with outsiders just long enough to steal the resulting infant and run.

Quite aside from the statue and the family tree and the halo, this doesn't all scream "cult" to you?

[Dwy]

All idolization doesn't equal cults.

Heck, it must be a pretty tough life, being a Draketooth (pre-familicide):
1. You live in total isolation except for your family.
2. You're always alert, you are guarding what allegedly is a cornerstone of reality, and you can never know when either paladins or other evils(yeah, I know, but it's how they chose to see it anyway) may come for it.
3. If you get to go to the outside world, you cannot share the knowledge with anyone, and even though reproducing might be fun, it is your DUTY, not your choice.
4. You must, if all else fails, be willing to sacrifice your life in struggle for a magical "Gate" created by the Scribbles.

Now, if I was a draketooth, I'd need to be able to tell myself: "It's worth it."
How would I do that? By idolizing Girard. He was/is the head of the family, he has reached epic levels (I think), he knows what he's doing.

Thus, worshipping/idolizing Girard is not a bad thing here, it is a healthy reaction to a harsh reality.