OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

[Math_Mage]

no there was no interference allowed, the only thing they were allowed was to know the status of the other gates so theyd know if someone was attacking them so tehy could beef up there own security, there was no interference allowed period

Sounds like an extreme case of Lawful Stupid. Or Chaotic Stupid, if the factor is not the oath but such extreme distrust that your response to three gates down and people coming to help you defend the fourth is still to bomb them because they promised not to. So maybe it's just plain Stupid.

[PhantomDennis]

My dwarven companion and I require that diamond dust for a task of literally universal significance--
Really? It's no longer in the high priest's hand after he finishes casting. Seems like it was consumed.

No, Haley took it, Using her canonical Archive Raiding skills. After raiding the cast page for the diamond to rez Roy. Haley discovered she could raid any page in the archive, so long as A) it did not reveal events she did not already know B) it wouldn't affect the outcome of events that were set in canon. So, anytime Haley's been offscreen, she's concentrating what she can salvage from the Archives focusing on the Dragon's fortune that was canonically destroyed.

[Themrys]

id say its a pretty neutral really, even if one parent is not consulted the kid is still raised by his/her parent and we have no evidence of any mistreatment within the draketooth clan and the kid is raised in a fairly safe environment compared to the other areas of the desert

This may be true for the Draketooth women who presumably just sleep with some men and walk away. However, the men...not only does it large emotional damage to have your child and husband vanish at the same time, women also put a lot of ressources in bearing a child.
Those ressources, that may include one or more teeth, beauty and health, are gone forever. (Well, maybe not forever in the case of beauty, but not all women are able to get rid of the weight they gained during pregnancy)

Stealing those ressources is worse than stealing money.

This is NOT "neutral" in my opinion. It is evil. Not evil with a big E, but still evil.

[Forikroder]

Sounds like an extreme case of Lawful Stupid. Or Chaotic Stupid, if the factor is not the oath but such extreme distrust that your response to three gates down and people coming to help you defend the fourth is still to bomb them because they promised not to. So maybe it's just plain Stupid.

the bomb was set when Girard first set up the defense of the gate even assuming that he still remembered the trap was still around and was actually physically capable of heading out in the desert to disarm it he wouldnt go walking out to the middle of the desert to disarm it since its still possible for it to take down whoever took down Soons gate and he knows his canyon is safe and knows the desert is not safe

if i was Girard i would assume they affound lirians gate and used Lirian to learn the location of the other gates and such since only Serini knew the actual location of the gate then the unknown enemy would go to the trap triggering it and letting Girard know there coming

[Math_Mage]

the bomb was set when Girard first set up the defense of the gate even assuming that he still remembered the trap was still around and was actually physically capable of heading out in the desert to disarm it he wouldnt go walking out to the middle of the desert to disarm it since its still possible for it to take down whoever took down Soons gate and he knows his canyon is safe and knows the desert is not safe

if i was Girard i would assume they affound lirians gate and used Lirian to learn the location of the other gates and such since only Serini knew the actual location of the gate then the unknown enemy would go to the trap triggering it and letting Girard know there coming

The trap isn't keyed to "enemies coming for mah Gate." It's keyed to Soon and his "fascist paladin lackeys."

[Forikroder]

The trap isn't keyed to "enemies coming for mah Gate." It's keyed to Soon and his "fascist paladin lackeys."

yet it blew up on some random adventurers... hmm..

oh ya, becuase it is set based on Keywords, keywords that en enemy force that had stolen the information from the azure guard after destroying the gate were somewhat likely to still trigger

and again, theres no good reason at all for Girard to disarm the trap, as far as hes concerned noone can ever find his gate jsut like Dorukon thought nothing could defeat his epic magic and Soon thought noone could topple the Saphire guard

for Girard he has no need of allies becuase the illusions his clan puts up are more then enough for a completely foolproof defense and leaving that defense to disarm an extremely old trap he probably forgot about means that hed have to either be able to teleport (and remember the random coordinates taht he probalby forgot about after setting the trap) or bring his entire clan out of the windy cavern to protect an ambush

theres no reason for him to try and disarm the trap even assuming he remember it existed and even assuming he remembered where he put it he picked random coordinates in the middle of the biggest desert in existance and had nothing to do at all with that trap since so 99% likely he forgot where the trap is at least

[Math_Mage]

yet it blew up on some random adventurers... hmm..

You say this like it's a point in Girard's FAVOR.

[Forikroder]

You say this like it's a point in Girard's FAVOR.

are you jsut ignoring 99% of what i write?
Girard sees everyone but those in his family as liabilitys and dead weight
Girard is probably dead or at the very lost old and frail
Girard has a super fortress reinforced with deadly traps and cunning illusions
Girard has no reason to leave aforementioned fortress even assuming hes still able to
Girard has probably even forgotten the trap EXISTS and i highly doubt he bothered to jot down where he randomly decided to put a trap

there is a 0% chance of Girard bothering at all with the trap in the 60(?) years its been up and no reason for him to

[Holy_Knight]

no there was no interference allowed, the only thing they were allowed was to know the status of the other gates so theyd know if someone was attacking them so tehy could beef up there own security, there was no interference allowed period

The very existence of the system proves that there were exceptions to the non-interference thing, and your asumption that it was "just so they could beef up their own security" is unsupported. Either way, your claim that the only way Soon might have sought out Girard was to fall first is demonstrably false. The really sad part is that Girard himself had broken the agreement already by maintaining contact wth Serini, and still felt no shame in criticizing Soon for supposedly breaking it--which, of course, he didn't.

[RMS Oceanic]

The very existence of the system proves that there were exceptions to the non-interference thing, and your asumption that it was "just so they could beef up their own security" is unsupported. Either way, your claim that the only way Soon might have sought out Girard was to fall first is demonstrably false. The really sad part is that Girard himself had broken the agreement already by maintaining contact wth Serini, and still felt no shame in criticizing Soon for supposedly breaking it--which, of course, he didn't.

Maybe he knew full well the others would break it, and was just waiting on Soon to break it as well, to show that his precious honour is more fragile than he thinks.

[Ninja Dragon]

EDIT: nvm, didn't see the other thread.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't know if this has been posted, but it doesn't hurt to do it:

http://chrishanel.tumblr.com/post/19...theft-is-theft

Apparently, there's a site making money with lots of webcomics, including OOTS. Just warning.

There's a thread about it. It got locked.

[Forikroder]

The very existence of the system proves that there were exceptions to the non-interference thing, and your asumption that it was "just so they could beef up their own security" is unsupported. Either way, your claim that the only way Soon might have sought out Girard was to fall first is demonstrably false. The really sad part is that Girard himself had broken the agreement already by maintaining contact wth Serini, and still felt no shame in criticizing Soon for supposedly breaking it--which, of course, he didn't.

Girard didnt have contact with Serini he only had a magic spell that, assuming that Soon sent someone to the Desert to find the gate therefore breaking the arrangement, warns serini that Soon broke the rules thats all

and if the pie chart was so people knew if a gate needed help, why didnt it actually do that? all it shows is if a gate still exists, if Xykon had balsted his awy into Azure city, slaughtered every paladin, dealt with the ghosts and set up shop in the tower the system wouldnt ahve done diddly-squat, Xykon sat inDorukons dungeons for a good long time and none of the others did a single thing becuase none of them had any idea he was there, they all knew Lirians gate had fallen, probably scryed the area or sent people over there and decided it was a possible freak accident and continued on there merry way guarding there personal gate

the pie chart is obviously not a security device since it ahsnt done a single thing to help the gates remain secure

[weeping eagle]

And we were wrong. The story was much more complicated than that.

I have no idea if it's true, but I like to think that Mr. Burlew had Familicide, the Draketooth black dragon heritage, *and* the one-family gate protection method already in mind when he wrote strip 276.

If that's the case, everyone should just take their balls and go home, i.e., wait patiently for the comics to be posted and spend their newfound free time taking nice walks or something.

[Math_Mage]

are you jsut ignoring 99% of what i write?
Girard sees everyone but those in his family as liabilitys and dead weight
Girard is probably dead or at the very lost old and frail
Girard has a super fortress reinforced with deadly traps and cunning illusions
Girard has no reason to leave aforementioned fortress even assuming hes still able to
Girard has probably even forgotten the trap EXISTS and i highly doubt he bothered to jot down where he randomly decided to put a trap

there is a 0% chance of Girard bothering at all with the trap in the 60(?) years its been up and no reason for him to

No reason for Girard to have laid an explosive trap in the first place. I feel like I've wandered into a looking glass land where people argue that Girard's actions are somehow JUSTIFIED by his insane paranoia, when it's his paranoia that has led him to perform contemptible actions in the first place.

[Porthos]

If that's the case, everyone should just take their balls and go home, i.e., wait patiently for the comics to be posted and spend their newfound free time taking nice walks or something.

That kinda renders the whole point of a discussion forum moot, dunnit?

[Holy_Knight]

Girard didnt have contact with Serini he only had a magic spell that, assuming that Soon sent someone to the Desert to find the gate therefore breaking the arrangement, warns serini that Soon broke the rules thats all

and if the pie chart was so people knew if a gate needed help, why didnt it actually do that? all it shows is if a gate still exists, if Xykon had balsted his awy into Azure city, slaughtered every paladin, dealt with the ghosts and set up shop in the tower the system wouldnt ahve done diddly-squat, Xykon sat inDorukons dungeons for a good long time and none of the others did a single thing becuase none of them had any idea he was there, they all knew Lirians gate had fallen, probably scryed the area or sent people over there and decided it was a possible freak accident and continued on there merry way guarding there personal gate

the pie chart is obviously not a security device since it ahsnt done a single thing to help the gates remain secure

Actually he implies that he has a bet with Serini about how long it will take Soon to break his word, which means he did have some contact with her. (For that matter, Durokan and Lirian broke the agreement too--Soon was the only one who didn't, despite what Girard wrongly assumed.)

And I didn't say the system was a security device, I'm saying the fact that it exists shows that they recognized conditions under which the non-interference agreement had exceptions. It shows that they were at least wise enough to think that there was a possibility of needing to be flexible about the agreement, especially if a gate was destroyed--which is currently true of three of them. And again, all this is still to say that it's simply false that the only way Soon or his followers might go to those coordinates is because they'd turned to evil or tyranny.

[Kieran Cage]

I wonder what chess would be like with this opinion.

LOL!! I can see it now...

Player 1: Knight takes Pawn.
Player 2: Hey, he can't do that!
P1: Why the heck not? It's a two up, one over move.
P2: A knight can't do that to a helpless pawn. He doesn't know what hardships brought him to that point. That poor pawn has a wife and six kids to feed. Killing him is an evil act. Your knight would lose all of his knight abilities! The knight is a racist!!

(Game piece and all chess pieces go flying as Player 1's head hits the desk with great force)

[Omergideon]

I wonder what chess would be like with this opinion.

I think this is probably a faceitious post, but meh I am bored so lets take it inappropriately seriously.


I would suggest that chess is a far more abstracted and unreal construct by almost every standard than roleplaying. The major difference would be that roleplaying is more akin to play acting then anything else, though with a game-like element to it. Chess is instead a strategy system. You could replace the names of the pieces in chess with any abstract token names (from types of rock to polygons) with next to no change in the nature of the game. But roleplaying cannot be abstracted in this way into a strategy simulator. The lifeblood is roleplaying, i.e pretending to be another person. In this state any sort of attitude may be roleplayed and it be allowed. A person can conciously play an evil character in the same way you may play a villain in a play. But to justify evil acts due to "abstract metagaming rules" like alignment entries in a monster manual and still claim to be playing a good character is a thing with far greater implications than deciding to take a queen rather than a rook.


I.e...it is the fact we roleplay in DnD and not chess that is at the core of the issue.


N.B: Remember, do not the above too seriously. The below may be.

Regarding Girard I lean much more towards Math Mages view than another, and with Holy Knight. Girard may well have some justified anger with Soon (or it may be due to a foolish misunderstanding and personality conflict). But he showed a misunderstanding of the man's nature, a chronically and malignantly paranoid attitude that led to a highly disfunctional clan with borderline-evil actions as standard policy and a disregard for the vow by the bet, which to be kept would require contact with others in total disregard for the vow.

And indeed, his paranoia is not a justification for his actions, but an explanation of them. Much as Belkars sociopathy is no justification for his evil actions. It is instead an explanation.

[Phoenix Xul]

I was actually JUST thinking about making a post complaining about Rich's perceived bias against non-lawful folk (with the primary offender being the Lawful Good Deva who implied that LG was the ideal alignment, [Yes I know, as a deva she's kinda bound to say that]) and then he rips on them like this and destroys my will to complain.

[Kish]

But I maintain then, that so far it looks to me like Rich is more interested in attacking the concept of "LG" as portrayed by players like me (and apparently sometimes by paladins). If Rich is putting something else in there, I guess it will be revealed later on.

More than what? What "something else" are you thinking he'd put in there?

He made it perfectly clear he's interested in attacking peoples' misunderstandings of the alignment system. What I don't get, is why you seem to think that supports some point you're making.

[Forikroder]

No reason for Girard to have laid an explosive trap in the first place. I feel like I've wandered into a looking glass land where people argue that Girard's actions are somehow JUSTIFIED by his insane paranoia, when it's his paranoia that has led him to perform contemptible actions in the first place.

perhaps justified might be a bit strong of a word, but considering how he sees the world it certainly makes sense for the bomb to be there

Actually he implies that he has a bet with Serini about how long it will take Soon to break his word, which means he did have some contact with her. (For that matter, Durokan and Lirian broke the agreement too--Soon was the only one who didn't, despite what Girard wrongly assumed.)

i dont think at all thats what it implied, i think it only implied an in house bet with him and the rest of his clan, also noone broke the non-interference pact i didnt see any treants hanging in Dorukons dungeon and Lirians wasnt reinforced with a cloister and Serini has barely interfered with the defence of the gate she set up jsut tossed in a bunch of monsters and called it a day

And I didn't say the system was a security device, I'm saying the fact that it exists shows that they recognized conditions under which the non-interference agreement had exceptions. It shows that they were at least wise enough to think that there was a possibility of needing to be flexible about the agreement, especially if a gate was destroyed--which is currently true of three of them. And again, all this is still to say that it's simply false that the only way Soon or his followers might go to those coordinates is because they'd turned to evil or tyranny.

Lirians gate get destroyed, noa ction from teh ramaining 4
Dorukons gate gets destroyed, no action from the remaining 3
Soons gate gets destroyed no action from teh remaining 2

none of them are doing anything to assist the other ones at all in the defense of there gates, obviously that means that they have no intention of helping the rest at all in the defence of there gates, erego there are no conditions in which interference would happen

the completely no interaction was mainly for Soon and Girard who were already on extremely unfriendly terms, Dorukon and Lirian left the group as friends so obviously they would keep in touch but from what we know it seems like Serini has been traveling and hasnt been in contact with any of them

and as ive said, from Girards point of view, even if he acknowledges Soons gate went Kaput, and even if he notices the paladins coming over and offering there services to defend the gate, hed turn them away to him Paladins are worthless and pointless and there jsut dead weight and hes already thinks that Soon would eventually decide that the gates should all be controlled by him for the greater good so he wouldnt even want them to know the real general area the gate is

so if anyone triggers the trap its either A) Soon trying to take control of the gate B) some enem trying to take control of the gate C) some worthless liabiltys and dead weight

[Kish]

perhaps justified might be a bit strong of a word, but considering how he sees the world it certainly makes sense for the bomb to be there

Because he's insanely paranoid, it makes sense for him to behave in an insanely paranoid fashion. This has only been questioned by people who think he isn't/wasn't insanely paranoid, for some reason.

What point are you trying to make here?

[thepsyker]

Sounds like an extreme case of Lawful Stupid. Or Chaotic Stupid, if the factor is not the oath but such extreme distrust that your response to three gates down and people coming to help you defend the fourth is still to bomb them because they promised not to. So maybe it's just plain Stupid.

You sound like you are assuming the trap was set after there were three gates down as opposed to a couple of decades ago when Girard was first preparing the defenses for his gate, which seems to have been the case given his appearance and the bet he made.

[Math_Mage]

You sound like you are assuming the trap was set after there were three gates down as opposed to a couple of decades ago when Girard was first preparing the defenses for his gate, which seems to have been the case given his appearance and the bet he made.

It NEVER made sense. The events after three gates were downed merely serve to SHOW how little sense it makes.

[thepsyker]

It NEVER made sense. The events after three gates were downed merely serve to SHOW how little sense it makes.

Why doesn't it make sense? He doesn't trust or like Soon, so he leaves a trap for if Soon breaks his oath and tries to get in his business. He maintains contact with Serini because he likes her and is chaotic so he personally doesn't care about the fact that he made an oath. Why doesn't he like or trust Soon? We don't know because the only have part of the story of the Order of the Squiggle and that part is from Soon's perspective. It seems like it might, in part, be because of what happened to Kagar(sp), but we don't have any of the details.

[t209]

Shall we break out this thread since things are going bad for Orders and good for Team Evil.

[Particle_Man]

More than what? What "something else" are you thinking he'd put in there?

He made it perfectly clear he's interested in attacking peoples' misunderstandings of the alignment system. What I don't get, is why you seem to think that supports some point you're making.

I'll start again:

"Dragons. Colour-coded for your convenience!" :)

Apparently Rich doesn't like this D&D fact, but I just thought he was making a "isn't the game goofy" funny, like "Dwarves can't run faster even with spells that make them bigger", but otherwise was leaving alignment issues as they are in the game, with evil chromatic dragons that it is ok to kill. Apparently, Rich was being ironic and it went over my head and he was making some point like "killing folk just because they are called "evil" doesn't make you good" or something like that. Which to me seems a wee bit deep for what is ultimately just a game to me, like, say chess.

Which is ok, as long as his comic is still funny I will still enjoy it, even if I disagree with him somewhat, and I will continue to run my games with lawful good paladins killing orc babies and retaining their paladinhood, and I will do so without any qualms, or worries that this makes, or will make, me racist or in any other way a bad person.

[Forikroder]

Because he's insanely paranoid, it makes sense for him to behave in an insanely paranoid fashion. This has only been questioned by people who think he isn't/wasn't insanely paranoid, for some reason.

What point are you trying to make here?

we call it insanely paranoid, but dont peopel always call the people paranoid in the horror filsm when they start talking about Aliens?

for the information he had, it makes perfect sense not to trust soon sine as a resident of the Desert he probably has no idea what a paladin is, unlike people in more good oriented countries he doesnt know that Paladins are the unshakable beacon of honour and justice who literally cant break there oaths, all his knowledge of Paladins is a direct result of him watching how Soon acted and then he made a decision based on what hed seen

[LadyEowyn]

I have no idea if it's true, but I like to think that Mr. Burlew had Familicide, the Draketooth black dragon heritage, *and* the one-family gate protection method already in mind when he wrote strip 276.

If that's the case, everyone should just take their balls and go home, i.e., wait patiently for the comics to be posted and spend their newfound free time taking nice walks or something.

I don't believe that is true. Rich said in one of his recent interviews that he decided to do the Vaarsuvius arc after finishing War & XPs, when he realized that Vaarsuvius was one of the characters that had undergone relatively little character development. That kind of disappointed me, as I had been assuming things were a little more planned out than that.