OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

[luc258]

They don't know where V went except downstairs to the entrance level. They didn't see where (s)he went beyond that.

So they should be searching for him/her. That's what people do when their friends run off into danger, in my opinion at least.

[LordShotGun]

Ouch, Elan lost a finger in panel 8

Made me recheck and owch, yeah he did!

[dtilque]

Given that Vaarsuvius is trapped and unconscious, what odds would you put on someone else telling the Order about Familicide before V gets the chance?

Currently I'd put chance of it at around 95%. Narratively, it produces conflict and complicates the plot, and enables a much greater variety of potential outcomes than V just explaining everything his/herself.

It may make sense narratively, but there's only a limited number of other characters who know about the Familicide. Blackwing does, but he's hors de combat along with V. The IFCC also know, but they rarely manifest on the material plane. The dragon and V's family are out of the picture, plotwise.

That leaves Qarr. Yeah, he might tell them if the opportunity presents. Be interesting if it happens.


On a separate topic, I note that Haley took out her bag of holding. I suppose this is a subtle way of telling us that the bag we last see in #809 has been returned to her.

[RMS Oceanic]

So they should be searching for him/her. That's what people do when their friends run off into danger, in my opinion at least.

It's not the first time.

I'm guessing they assumed V just went outside for fresh air, so decided to try and unravel the Mystery of the Mummies in the Lunch Room™. It didn't twig with them that V might get into trouble.

[LadyEowyn]

I'm not getting Haley's comment that the Draketooths "died so quickly, they probably don't even know they're dead". They've been dead for a couple weeks now.

[Hopeless]

It already has, really--though in theory the OotS could salvage things long enough to find a new guardian. Girard's paranoia led to his trusting only his blood relatives as guardians of the gate, which made Familicide a 100% effective method for annihilating them and the magic that hid the gate.*

*--given the habits of dragons regarding breeding with anything with a pulse, Familicide may well have taken out a substantial portion of the guardians of Kraagor's Gate as well--but we won't know until later.

And what about Malach's family?

Didn't he say they had been slain as well?

But then how was he spared if he was related as part of the family?

Sorry not sure if this relevant but felt it ought to be mentioned...

[Cirin]

I very much doubt it. The only in-comic thing we know of that can annihiliate souls is the Snarl. Even Xykon can only Soul Bind.

Besides, Tiamat would probably have been even more upset with the IFCC if the dragons' souls had been annihilated rather than consigned to spend an eternity with her in the afterlife. Upset enough to kill.

Also, right before casting Familicide, V said to the dragon that she'd be back with her family soon. If it annihilates souls, V didn't know about it when casting (of course, that wouldn't be the only thing missed in the full spell description). Also, annihilating souls would take an already ridiculously powerful spell (probably the most powerful Necromancy ever, like Cloister is the most powerful Abjuration ever) and make it way, way more ridiculous since as said, death effects don't normally do that. There are only a handful of effects in standard D&D that I know that can kill somebody so bad they can't come back. The Feed ability of a Barghest can do it, there is a special epic poison called Mortu in the Epic Level Handbook which can do it, the Death card in a Deck of Many Things can result in permanent death if the character is slain by the Minor Death it summons.

[Kish]

I'm not getting Haley's comment that the Draketooths "died so quickly, they probably don't even know they're dead". They've been dead for a couple weeks now.

You left out an important word.
"They probably don't know they're all dead."

Each individual Draketooth, she's saying, is likely to respond to a Resurrection from Durkon with, "As if, paladin scum! However you killed me, the rest of my family will kill you and resurrect me any minute now!"

And what about Malach's family?

Didn't he say they had been slain as well?

But then how was he spared if he was related as part of the family?

Sorry not sure if this relevant but felt it ought to be mentioned...

Malack's three children were unambiguously murdered by Nale.

No one is less forgiving of Vaarsuvius than me, but let's not start attributing every death in the world to him.

[HandofShadows]

I'm not getting Haley's comment that the Draketooths "died so quickly, they probably don't even know they're dead". They've been dead for a couple weeks now.

The people that died know they are dead. But they probably don't know that everyone *else* is dead as well. If they knew that they might come back to see what is going on and to try and defend the gate.


And things are bad when Elan gets it and others don't.

[theNater]

I'm a bit surprised that three good aligned people spend ten minutes casting ressurection instead of going after their team mate who is obviously not hirself from something and just run off into a pyramid that was built to be a deathtrap for invaders.

Remember, Haley guessed that Vaarsuvius was headed outside to vomit. The path to the door was clear, so there's no reason for them to think V's in danger. They probably want to be considerate of V's dignity, and are getting some work done while waiting until V feels ready to come back in.

The next time they stop and take stock, they'll probably comment how odd it is V's not back yet, and go from there.

[LadyEowyn]

The people that died know they are dead. But they probably don't know that everyone *else* is dead as well. If they knew that they might come back to see what is going on and to try and defend the gate.

But if they've all been dead for two weeks, at least some of them will be bunched together in a single afterlife, and they'll have had time to realize that.

[Kish]

I am dubious that anyone is bunched together...ever...in the Chaotic Neutral afterlife. (There are probably faceless crowds in some "places," but, actually faceless.)

And remember how long it took Roy to realize that he had even been in the (way more orderly, presumably) Lawful Good afterlife more than a day? And the number of people he had previously known who he saw without being specifically guided to by his archon? (0.)

[Burner28]

Interesting strip.

[Cirin]

Frankly, given the oddness that has been going on with the whole "world within a world" thing, I'd say we're not completely sure if the Snarl even actually does that. It seems advisable, at this point, to take everything we've been told about the Snarl with a grain of salt.

Well, we know that Soon Kim's wife Mijung was killed by the Snarl in the encounter that first revealed the Snarl to the world.

Even with all their access to Epic magic, the Order of the Scribble couldn't restore Mijung to life.

So, while we certainly don't know everything there is to know about the Snarl, it's safe to assume that anybody killed by it is not being brought back to life on their world..

[TowerWizard]

I have not read all replies, but from the ones I read, I found it strange that so few complained about this comic.

Why ruin the suspense about what happened to V by just showing hir like that? It filled no purpose in the plot in the comic, it was just to satisfy the readers curiosity. I think it would have been more suspenseful to what with that reveal until it made sense in the plot.

That "reason" for the resurrection to fail did not satisfy me. Why would the spell supply information about ONLY alignment? Why not class/race too? Makes no sense.

Also, come on readers. Don't say you don't know whether V is alive or not. It is easy. X in eyes = dead. It is not hard.

I love OotS, but this strip is not one of my top 500 strips.

Edit: The diamond dust should not be used up if the spell fails.

[BaronOfHell]

Nice with a high speed less dark strip!

Though I wonder, Haley postulated they [guardians of Girard's gate] died so quickly that they don't know they all died. Unless the afterlife they went to works differently, I'd have thought they actually had good possibilities to know about this during those weeks.

In any case, there might be several possible explanations to this and I look forward to see what it is. So far I think Haley simply guessed wrong, but she could be right of course.

Why ruin the suspense about what happened to V by just showing hir like that? It filled no purpose in the plot in the comic [...]

Roy: But just because it's still functioning doesn't mean it isn't being corrupted as we speak by whatever new villain killed these people
**scene change to V**
So I think it served a quite clear purpose, if you don't think telling V is alive isn't sufficient purpose.

[Jay R]

I have not read all replies, but from the ones I read, I found it strange that so few complained about this comic.

Why ruin the suspense about what happened to V by just showing hir like that? It filled no purpose in the plot in the comic, it was just to satisfy the readers curiosity. I think it would have been more suspenseful to what with that reveal until it made sense in the plot.

The purpose it filled in the comic was to emphasize the contrast between what V is really doing and Roy's immediate guess about the other gate being corrupted as we speak by whatever new villain killed these people, thus making it more obvious that their first reaction will be to consider V a villain.

This is called thesis / antithesis, and sets up the suspense of what will be the synthesis - what will they think when they combine their ideas of their team member with "whatever new villain killed these people"?

[Voidfaith]

...or else Miko stabs you.

[TowerWizard]

Roy: But just because it's still functioning doesn't mean it isn't being corrupted as we speak by whatever new villain killed these people
**scene change to V**
So I think it served a quite clear purpose, if you don't think telling V is alive isn't sufficient purpose.

First of all: It is obviously not the same person who killed the Draketooths who also set the traps in the pyramid, so some theoretical *new villain* could not be blamed for them, right?

Second of all: They have no idea that V is even in danger, so it makes no sense to switch to V at that comment, suggesting a connection between that comment and V.

That is, if I understand what you mean by "purpose" correctly here.

This is called thesis / antithesis, and sets up the suspense of what will be the synthesis - what will they think when they combine their ideas of their team member with "whatever new villain killed these people"?

You are not suggesting that they will make an enemy of V? I find that extremely hard to grasp. Hir is the most powerful member of the group, without whom they have no real hope of defeating Xykon. I think they will be mad at hir, sure. Madhatter monkey murder mad. But to make an enemy of V? No. Just... No. Besides, this might have been the only way they could have gained entrance to the pyramid at all, as they pointed out some strips ago.

[BaronOfHell]

I bolded it out for you and then you removed that bold in the reply. If you aren't misunderstanding on purpose (trolling), then fair enough. I'll try again. Roy thinks someone unknown killed them all. Roy doesn't know who exactly it is, but thinks it's a new villain.Then the scene changes to V, showing it's V who's the person Roy talks about (Roy doesn't know it's V who's done this).

If you don't get my point, I won't repeat it, sorry. If you disagree, then fair enough, each to their own interpretation.

[Dwy]

Brilliant comic!

I know this may sound weird, but I've come to appreciate the slower paced comics very much. Sure, plot is cool, but it shouldn't be forced. This one manages to let the readers be lulled into a false sense of temporary safety. And it with a few like this, the plot heavy strips will feel alot more satisfying when they show up.

[TowerWizard]

@ BaronOfHell: I was not trolling, I was just slow. Saw no connection between villains and V and still don't. But I understand now what you meant, and what Rich meant. I will be surprised and disappointed at Roy and the others in the Order if they will see hir like that, because it is so far out.

[phantomreader42]

I have not read all replies, but from the ones I read, I found it strange that so few complained about this comic.

Why ruin the suspense about what happened to V by just showing hir like that? It filled no purpose in the plot in the comic, it was just to satisfy the readers curiosity. I think it would have been more suspenseful to what with that reveal until it made sense in the plot.

Notice the cut to V right after the remark about "whatever new villain killed them". THAT is the point of the cut at that moment. The "new villain" is right there, not corrupting anything, and neither particularly new nor in a position to do much more villainy right now.

That "reason" for the resurrection to fail did not satisfy me. Why would the spell supply information about ONLY alignment? Why not class/race too? Makes no sense.

As I recall from the rules, the target is aware of the caster's name, alignment, patron deity, and I think which spell is being used. Class/race not included, but can perhaps be derived (druids cannot cast Resurrection, and one presumes few humans worship Tiamat, for example).

[Kish]

@ BaronOfHell: I was not trolling, I was just slow. Saw no connection between villains and V and still don't. But I understand now what you meant, and what Rich meant. I will be surprised and disappointed at Roy and the others in the Order if they will see hir like that, because it is so far out.

Urgh.

It has nothing to do with the Order seeing Vaarsuvius as a villain.

Roy mentioned the person who killed the Draketooths.

We got an immediate cut to the person who killed the Draketooths.

That is all.

[t209]

The white haired old lady looked older to me.

I think that would probably his wife. I mean if they wanted to ask about the castle, they have to find the leader or higher ops.
What power does D&D Dragonblood have? I know they won't have Dragonshouts from Skyrim, but I heard that they change themselves into dragons? What's difference between Draketooths and D&D Dragonborns other than their draconic ancestry?
To those who do not play skyrim- "Dragonborn" from Skyrim gained gifts from the dragon god, not from mating.

[BaronOfHell]

I was not trolling

Sorry about accusing you then!

I will be surprised and disappointed at Roy and the others in the Order if they will see hir like that, because it is so far out.

Like kish writes above, it's not that V's percieved as a villian.
It's that the person Roy describes as villain turns out to be V. Or at least I'm pretty confident that's what the panel change is showing.

[Zombieboots]

The same could be said of some players.

Good strip.

[MReav]

If Durkon has Scribe Scroll, maybe he could scribe a Resurrection and have Haley use UMD. Or does Haley not have UMD?

[Kish]

If Durkon has Scribe Scroll, maybe he could scribe a Resurrection and have Haley use UMD. Or does Haley not have UMD?

Haley has Use Magic Device. (Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales)

Spoiler

Show

Enough to reliably use a Teleport scroll, when she was lower-level than she is now.

Whether Durkon has Scribe Scroll is another question.

[SteveMB]

how long will it take them to realize V isn't there? and did the Saph Guard ever mention their monitoring system?

Huh? They already know V flipped out and ran off -- the question is when they'll decide "s/he's been gone too long; better go look for hir...".