OOC Problems

[Rhaegar14]

Alright guys, first, some background.

In about two weeks, my younger brother is starting up a Pathfinder campaign that's expected to go from levels 5 to 15. Now, this is a campaign with a long-time group of friends and fellow D&D players, so I was very excited.

Among the rules were "Tier 1 classes are banned." Sounds fine, good way to keep things under control. But then tonight I found out that it isn't "Tier 1 classes are banned for everyone," it's "Tier 1 classes are banned for you."

Now, on one hand, I can kind of see where he's coming from, because I spend a lot of time on these forums and he knows I do. I frequently go over the SparkNotes version of random build ideas I come up with in my head with him. Compared to the rest of my group op-wise, I'm one of those people who can figure out a way to kill a Balor at 1st level. He only even knows what the tier system is because I've explained it to him, then linked it to him.

For example: The last time we did a campaign, I had a Sorc JPM in a party with a Paladin/Champion of Corellon, and as soon as we hit ~5th level I was dwarfing his damage output in melee. It's stuff like this.

But I'm not going to go out of my way to break things; the only reason the above situation occurred was because I really wanted to play a gish and I could not make the paladin player see reason when I kept telling him "go Crusader." (Rather amusingly, he saw the light preeeeetty fast after I took my first level of Crusader for JPM prereqs, but that's getting off-topic.) What's more, I'm more than happy to help other players optimize their character concepts without fundamentally altering their flavor.

And in the past, I've also actively worked to make sure his campaign stays manageable. In the same campaign, one of our party members was building Arcane Hierophant. I told him that for banned schools he should take Transmutation and Conjuration for his Evoker specialization, because a lot of those effects are already covered by Druid. The result? My brother doesn't have to worry about us getting teleportation or anything else in either of those schools that makes challenging us out of combat really difficult (I didn't have the spells known to spend on problem-solvers and I knew that), and this character stays mostly abreast in capability with the rest of the party.

So, long story short, I'm really offended that he thinks it's fair to ban things for me and not anyone else. Frankly, it makes me want to play a Sorcerer or Oracle, find some cheap, obscure combo, and absolutely break the fabric of his campaign world in two, to show him that if I really want to break his game, banning those classes is not going to stop me (I know that's not productive, it's just how I feel about the situation).

But one of the other problems is, because of my history with this group, and because I've been really craving some D&D lately, I'm not going to walk out and he knows I'm not going to walk out. He can be stubborn, and I don't know that talking it out is really going to get me anywhere. So I'm kinda stuck, and don't know what to do. Anyone been in a similar situation who wants to offer me advice?

[erikun]

So, long story short, I'm really offended that he thinks it's fair to ban things for me and not anyone else.

I would recommend you tell him that you're really offended that he thinks it's fair to ban things for you and not anyone else. Really, I see no reason not to take the direct route.

On the other hand, if you know that the rest of the players are running unoptimized Paladins and such, then intentionally creating a melee-centric character that completely overshadows them is probably not the best idea. And it sounds like you are asking why the other players don't rise to your optimization level - and then wondering why others would want you to drop down to the other's optimization level.


I mean, let's face it. You can make a Sorcerer, learn Polymorph/Shadow Conjuration/Anyspell, and be just as powerful as a T1 class anyways. Or a Beguiler/Rainbow Savant, and literally become a T1. Attempting to break the game isn't even going to be a challange; there literally have not been any options removed to you.

How about registering your complaint with your GM, then agreeing to not run a T1 or create some high-optimization monstrosity? A Song of the White Raven Bard/Warblade, Factotum, Psychic Warrior, or Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms is very solidly T3 material with a bunch of options but less things for the GM to worry about.

[togapika]

Or just make an optimized support, based around healing or buffing...

[Sidmen]

You know exactly WHY he banned those classes for you, so why are you angry?

In your hands, he figures, T1 classes can ruin or otherwise harm his campaign, while in the hands of anyone else in the group they would be played as they were supposed to be played, and be pretty balanced and fun.

You could get mad - like you are - and throw a tantrum, ruining everyone's fun so you can laugh at your friend in the face because he dared to try and get you to play in a way that won't make any challenge he sets before you a pointless matter. For obvious reasons, I don't encourage this course of action.

OR, you could accept his concerns (you do actively show him how you can snap the game in half with your T1 casters), and just play something else - and have fun doing so. After all, what do you gain from playing a T1 character that you don't get from playing a T2 or T3 character?

[Krazzman]

In your hands, he figures, T1 classes can ruin or otherwise harm his campaign, while in the hands of anyone else in the group they would be played as they were supposed to be played, and be pretty balanced and fun.

You're saying his brother thinks if he plays a T1 he'll break the game but the others will not even think of it? And how do you tell how a T1 is supposed to play?

B2T:
I would also tend to talk to him and look at what the rest of the party wants to play. Why not trying a Magus or an Alchemist or Summoner? All 3 "Gishes" in the range of T3 to T2(depending on archetypes). You could try something new.

[Rhaegar14]

Alright, first of all, with the Paladin thing, that player was playing a Paladin (after me doing my damnedest to explain the problem with such an idea to him) in a group where everyone else was a full caster, with the exception of the Bard, who I was encouraging to go down the Sublime Chord route when he hit level 10 and qualified. He was the outlier to the party balance, not me. I just happened to be the one most directly stepping on his toes, and thought it would provide a good example. I'm not some monster who's going to abuse some random, poorly worded piece of RAW in order to murder the entire continent at level 3, I just have a high degree of knowledge (compared to the rest of my group) of what is and isn't out there, and what separates a good option from a bad option; for instance, knowing that making a Dex-based sword-and-board fighter with one of the least functional classes in the system is a bad idea (as opposed to the previously mentioned Paladin).

And it's more the attitude behind it than the fact of the thing. He didn't ask me nicely if I could please not play a Tier 1 character because he doesn't want to worry about me being able to break his campaign in one way or another; he told me "Tier 1 classes are banned just for you." He can't just trust that I want to keep the game balanced and want everyone to have a good time, and that a simple gentleman's agreement is going to do the job, but instead he feels he has to tell me what I can and cannot play. That's the part I resent. What I want to play is not really the issue here, though I appreciate the suggestions.

[Zeru the Dark]

I've personally banned several of my players from various things throughout my time as a DM; sometimes it just needs to happen. More than likely, he simply feels that you are going to take a low Tier class, and optimize it until it functions as least as well as everyone else, and he'd rather have you do that than just play a Wizard. Or maybe he's got something else in mind. Regardless, ask him why he chose to ban you specifically, and explain that you're offended to him. Don't try and change it; he's got his reasons. But you do deserve an explanation.

[Saph]

He was the outlier to the party balance, not me. I just happened to be the one most directly stepping on his toes, and thought it would provide a good example.

He can't just trust that I want to keep the game balanced and want everyone to have a good time, and that a simple gentleman's agreement is going to do the job, but instead he feels he has to tell me what I can and cannot play.

Reading between the lines here, I suspect the problem is that the way you've played characters in the past has led him to believe that you aren't trying to keep the game balanced.

To be blunt, the best solution is to get over being offended, play a lower-tier class, and drop your optimization level to match the party's. You yourself have admitted that it's not like the DM has put any significant restrictions on you. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but if you can do it it's the best way to end up with everyone happy.

Oh, one other bit of advice: If you know that the DM isn't a powergamer, don't talk about stuff like killing a Balor at 1st level, and don't try and make players "see the light" about the Tier system, and don't try and "prove points" about the power level of class X or Y or Z. It comes across as boastful ("look how awesome I am at this game!") and patronising ("You obviously don't understand how this works, so let me explain it to you.").

And finally, whatever you do, DO NOT repeat this:

Frankly, it makes me want to play a Sorcerer or Oracle, find some cheap, obscure combo, and absolutely break the fabric of his campaign world in two, to show him that if I really want to break his game, banning those classes is not going to stop me (I know that's not productive, it's just how I feel about the situation).

. . . to the DM. It's the absolute worst thing you can possibly say if you want him to trust you.

[Xiander]

And it's more the attitude behind it than the fact of the thing. He didn't ask me nicely if I could please not play a Tier 1 character because he doesn't want to worry about me being able to break his campaign in one way or another; he told me "Tier 1 classes are banned just for you." He can't just trust that I want to keep the game balanced and want everyone to have a good time, and that a simple gentleman's agreement is going to do the job, but instead he feels he has to tell me what I can and cannot play. That's the part I resent. What I want to play is not really the issue here, though I appreciate the suggestions.

Tell him that.

Then prove you mean it by playing a well-rounded character that does not overshadow anyone. The interesting thing about being proficient at optimizing, is that it gives you insight into how not to optimize, without sucking.

[Lapak]

Reading between the lines here, I suspect the problem is that the way you've played characters in the past has led him to believe that you aren't trying to keep the game balanced.

To be blunt, the best solution is to get over being offended, play a lower-tier class, and drop your optimization level to match the party's. You yourself have admitted that it's not like the DM has put any significant restrictions on you. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but if you can do it it's the best way to end up with everyone happy.

Oh, one other bit of advice: If you know that the DM isn't a powergamer, don't talk about stuff like killing a Balor at 1st level, and don't try and make players "see the light" about the Tier system, and don't try and "prove points" about the power level of class X or Y or Z. It comes across as boastful ("look how awesome I am at this game!") and patronising ("You obviously don't understand how this works, so let me explain it to you.").

And finally, whatever you do, DO NOT repeat this:



. . . to the DM. It's the absolute worst thing you can possibly say if you want him to trust you.

This post is the best advice you're going to get, and it's what I intended to say after reading your original post. Listen to Saph!

[Dr Bwaa]

Listen to Saph!

QFT.

The problem here is that he simply doesn't trust you not to be overpowered. The problem with trust is that you can't just tell people to trust you and have it happen (except sometimes). You have to prove that you mean what you say, and that can be hard when they don't give you the freedom to do exactly what you say you will, like in this case. But sucking it up, playing a lower-tiered class, and keeping yourself nice and balanced with the rest of the party will get your point across just as well as if you'd played a high-tier class and failed to totally outshine everyone.

[bloodtide]

And it's more the attitude behind it than the fact of the thing. He didn't ask me nicely if I could please not play a Tier 1 character because he doesn't want to worry about me being able to break his campaign in one way or another; he told me "Tier 1 classes are banned just for you." He can't just trust that I want to keep the game balanced and want everyone to have a good time, and that a simple gentleman's agreement is going to do the job, but instead he feels he has to tell me what I can and cannot play. That's the part I resent. What I want to play is not really the issue here, though I appreciate the suggestions.

This is what a DM has to do, all the time. It would be nice if everyone was a nice and good person and that you could just ask people things, and that everyone being all nice and good would agree and understand. Of course the world does not work that way. You can ask people to do things all day long, but at some point you simply have to put your foot down. This is why we have rules and laws.

In this case, he knows asking you not to 'break' things is a slippery slope. At best you could sit there with your Tier 1 character and make comments like 'wow I could win this encounter in one round if the Dm would let me, but he won't so I'll just cast ray of frost again'. And at worst you can 'sneak' stuff in 'oops I just did 200 damage, it was a mistake, honest(snicker, snicker)'. The end result is it's just easier and better to ban you then to trust you.

And you have already given him reason not to trust you. You already break his game. You are aware that you do it and know about it, but yet you still do it. You could try to hide behind 'it's just your way of playing the game', but it's also you having fun at other peoples expense, and that is always bad.

[NikitaDarkstar]

To be honest, by just reading what you've said here I would have done the exact same thing if I were your DM.

Not only do you have a very high optimization knowledge (which doesn't have to be a bad thing) you've run characters like this in the past and tried to get others to change their classes to fit your style. Here's a tip, don't give people advice on their character choices unless they ask for help. If someone plays a paladin and is happy playing a paladin he doesn't want to hear how much better the crusader is, it' condescending and annoying. The DM banned you from five classes, that's next to nothing if all sources are open. Now I'd suggest respecting his decision and playing by his rules, and while he probably should have given you an explanation you already know why he did it so what's the point?

[DrBurr]

To be honest, by just reading what you've said here I would have done the exact same thing if I were your DM.

Not only do you have a very high optimization knowledge (which doesn't have to be a bad thing) you've run characters like this in the past and tried to get others to change their classes to fit your style. Here's a tip, don't give people advice on their character choices unless they ask for help. If someone plays a paladin and is happy playing a paladin he doesn't want to hear how much better the crusader is, it' condescending and annoying. The DM banned you from five classes, that's next to nothing if all sources are open. Now I'd suggest respecting his decision and playing by his rules, and while he probably should have given you an explanation you already know why he did it so what's the point?

I agree with you 100% one of my biggest peeves as a DM is when player's tell others how they should make their character or what they should do unless the person has requested advice. It prevents people from actually learning the game and really sucks the fun out of making your own character when someone is backseat building it for you.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, a DM sometimes needs to rule with an iron fist at his/her table, if a DM sees a player causing a problem they have the right to tell that player and if need be restrict them. Could your DM be more upfront about it and nicer yea definitely but he wasn't and ultimately didn't kill the game for you so whats the problem? You can't play a wizard? just play a sorcerer or try out a new class and let someone else shine as the lucky jerk who destroyed the Dragon

[Krazzman]

tried to get others to change their classes to fit your style.

Have you read his post or did you just stared at it for a few seconds and then decided to post? From what he has written he has given the Paladin ADVICE and hinted him that he either won't contribute much or that he won't have that much fun (in combat) because with the plans of EVERYONE ELSE at the table he would be the reserve wheel since even the casters would beat him up in Combat.

We can't judge how he told the paladin to try the crusader instead but we can judge from what he has written that he at least tries to keep it in a rather lower dimension (as in advising blasting schools instead of the really broken ones) and builds his characters according to the majority.

[Jay R]

Your brother thinks that you over-optimize ...

Compared to the rest of my group op-wise, I'm one of those people who can figure out a way to kill a Balor at 1st level.

... and he's right.

Your brother thinks your character will out-power other peoples' characters...

The last time we did a campaign, I had a Sorc JPM in a party with a Paladin/Champion of Corellon, and as soon as we hit ~5th level I was dwarfing his damage output in melee.

... and he's right.

Your brother thinks that if you get annoyed, you might decide to break the game...

Frankly, it makes me want to play a Sorcerer or Oracle, find some cheap, obscure combo, and absolutely break the fabric of his campaign world in two, to show him that if I really want to break his game, banning those classes is not going to stop me (I know that's not productive, it's just how I feel about the situation).

... and he's right.

He doesn't want you to have a character more powerful than anybody else's.

Now, if you can be happy playing on the same level as everybody else, then take a lower tier character, optimize to roughly the level of the others, and be part of the party.

If you can't enjoy other players having as much power as you do, then find another game.

Top-level golfers use a handicap to play with lesser golfers on an even basis. You're good enough to do the same. Treat it as a mark of honor.

But you have absolutely justified his action. The DM should take steps to see that all the players can be equally powerful.

[Coidzor]

Little brother, eh? Did you wedgie him too much when he was younger?

Maybe not enough?

[Krazzman]

Your brother thinks your character will out-power other peoples' characters...

... and he's right.

You are on thin ice here. You just compared Paladin with JPM-Sorcerer while forgetting this:

that player was playing a Paladin in a group where everyone else was a full caster,

This means nearly automatically that sooner or later the Paladin WILL be the weakest character. As far as I remember the Paladin had the lowest Tier here. Everyone was a caster while Rhaegar played a melee gish and the paladin playing a (I assume the following from what Rhaegar wrote) Dex-Based Sword and Board TWF champion of correllon. Shield bashing opponents might be fun but according to crunch it's really really low op compared to sublime chord et cetera.

B2T: Saph had a really good advice for you, try talking with your bro and tell him that you will ask beforehand what everyone wants to play so you can build accordingly (if you hadn't done this already).

[Morph Bark]

The first thing you need to do is to calm down a little. I understand that you are angry, because you feel slighted, but anger doesn't make a man think as straight as he should.

Have you tried looking at things from your friend's perspective? Perhaps he indeed feel like he couldn't trust you not to break things if you played a Tier 1 class, and in his haste he didn't think to just ask you if you please wouldn't do that. However, now you come here and say that because of that you want to break things with a non-Tier 1 class. If you do that, doesn't that basically tell your friend that he shouldn't trust you at all?

My advice to you is to not take it too harshly and just have fun playing with your friends. After all, even if the DM doesn't trust you with playing Tier 1 classes, he still likely trusts you with a lot of other things. You're friends, that's how friendship goes. And brotherhood even moreso.

You clearly aren't an ass, so don't become one over something trivial.


Slightly off-topic:

Spoiler

Show

It may also feel a little frustrating sometimes that others don't optimize like you might want them to. Don't sweat it. Those things take time. I have been playing with a group of people new to 3.5 for 1,5 years now and only recently did they pick up on some optimization skills. For me and other friends who have been playing 3.5 even longer it took a while as well. Plus, some might simply not feel like optimizing because they don't want to put too much time into character creation, as they'd rather just play the game and that being all.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Have you read his post or did you just stared at it for a few seconds and then decided to post? From what he has written he has given the Paladin ADVICE and hinted him that he either won't contribute much or that he won't have that much fun (in combat) because with the plans of EVERYONE ELSE at the table he would be the reserve wheel since even the casters would beat him up in Combat.

We can't judge how he told the paladin to try the crusader instead but we can judge from what he has written that he at least tries to keep it in a rather lower dimension (as in advising blasting schools instead of the really broken ones) and builds his characters according to the majority.

No I was to busy randomly beating up a rat with a half-rotten fish.

And if you describe someone you're trying to advice as "not wanting to see reason" I think it's fairly safe to say the advice isn't welcome no matter the circumstances.

[Krazzman]

No I was to busy randomly beating up a rat with a half-rotten fish.

And if you describe someone you're trying to advice as "not wanting to see reason" I think it's fairly safe to say the advice isn't welcome no matter the circumstances.

It's possible that it might not be welcomed because the one you advice is narrow minded or fixed to his idea, yeah. But if a guy would say "I would like to build an unarmed fighting guy" and says that he will probably take monk as his class in a group of Cleric, Druid, Wizard and a Swordsage. It is save to assume that he will probably not enjoy the game to the fullest because of a bad crunch decision.
Most times advice can sound silly and at first you don't see reason but as Rhaegar stated the Paladinplayer later saw why he had advised him to Crusader.

[prufock]

Your brother's technique for depowering you is clunky and ineffective, for 2 reasons. First, tier 2 classes are still very powerful and easily broken. Second, if you're playing tier 2 and everyone else plays tier 3 and below, there will be a noticeable power difference.

You could suggest the point buy modification or partial gestalt options with him, but tier 1s and 2s are still better under those changes.

As for the personal part of the issue: Is it reasonable that he singled out out? Yes. Is it fair? No. But then again, is it fair that you optimize more than the other players? Also no. This is the big problem, really: the difference in optimization level between you and the other players.

Are you able to de-optimize yourself? Can you play a tier 1 or 2 without overshadowing the other players, perhaps by playing a support character/buffer or by fitting into a different niche than the others? Do you NEED to play a tier 1?

[TheZenMaster]

About optimization.



Yes, making a musical number based class is the best.

[Anxe]

From what I can see, telling you not to play tier 1 classes was a good idea. However, he should have told you that the rule was only for you at the very beginning. Just talk it over with him and play a lower tiered class.

[Kaun]

I would just go with it man, it sounds like you are looking forward to all the other elements of the game is this one point going to be the difference between you having fun and not having fun?

If your brother isn't the savvy optimizer that you are he probably doesn't know a better way to curb to problem he foresees. I mean he could have handled it worse and let you roll what ever you want and then put restrictions on you after the game had started.

My suggestion is to pick a really under powered class and try and and optimize the poop out of it to make it a useful addition to the group. Not to hurt the game or anything but building something powerful out of junk is more impressive then building something super powerful out of something that was already powerful to begin with.

[Techsmart]

I would have to say go with saph on this. The only way to prove to the DM that you can keep the game balanced without him putting restrictions on you is to first work within his restrictions. Don't worry about the other players not being as high-op. If they aren't having fun because they are not as effective, they will ask for help, or say something to the dm, in which case it falls to the DM to sort things out, not the other players. Otherwise, this could cause other problems down the line.
Also, talk with him. Let him know that you don't appreciate the fact that he singled you out. However, say you will go ahead with his rule. This will tell him that although you don't agree with his decision, you respect it and you will make sure that you will do what's in your power to follow his intent. If you respect his decisions now, he will respect yours later. In the end, respect is a major part in a dm-player relationship.

[Fatebreaker]

Look, the important part isn't what you do or don't play. The important part isn't how much you optimize. The important part isn't whether the rest of your party optimizes or not.

The important part is that your DM is 1) limiting your fun because 2) he does not trust and 3) is doing so in a way which you also do not appreciate.

None of those are things you want to go into a game with, because none of those are things which are limited solely to the immediate issue of character creation.

If you really wanted to play a Tier One class, the whole campaign is going to be "Gee, I sure wish I was the class I wanted to play in the first place.

If he does not trust you now, he's not going to trust you later, and you're always going to wonder whether in-game complications are for the sake of a good story or just DM tricks to keep you down.

If he's treating you in a way you don't appreciate now, he's going to continue treating you that way.

Your DM should be able to discuss this with you in a clear, rational, and respectful manner. If he has a legitimate concern, he should be able to voice in in a legitimate manner. Likewise, you should be able to discuss it with him. Otherwise, you're just going to be pissed, and that's not a great formula for having fun.

So talk to your DM. Tell him how you feel and why. Explain it to him in terms of behaviors, both what he has done and what you would prefer him to do. Explain it to him in non-emotional terms. Just facts. Explain how this is detrimental to you, to him, and to the game as a whole. Ask him what he actually wants you to do, and offer up ideas for how you can meet that want in ways that are acceptable to you, too.

Whatever you do, remember that the important part isn't what you play, but how you're treated while you play.

Good luck.