Why the hate for vancian casting?

[Grac]

Title pretty much says it all.

While there are variations on vancian casting, the sorcerers in 3e, the Daily/Encounter/At Will powers in 4e, I am meaning the original form it has taken through the games, starting with the Magic-User way back when.

Why the hate? I know most people seem to hate it, with comments to the effect that it is universally understood to be bad design, but I don't understand that complaint. I like it. So, naturally, I'm confused about why what I consider a minor question of taste is taken that way.

Edit for clarity:
Vancian casting at bottom, consists of the following:
Some form of preparation of spells, readying them.
Casting those spells and no others
After being cast, that spell is removed from the casters list.

The wizard in 3.5 with a gazillion spells? That's vancian casting. A wizard in a system where casters get 1 level-less spell slot every 2 levels,and who cannot prepare the same spell twice? Also vancian.

People also make the complaint that vancian casting doesn't represent all character types. This is true, but as I see it, it is irrelevant: if a charger can't be made with vancian casting, why not make them using a different system?

Please understand, I am not asking 'why do you hate vancian casting being the default magic system', nor am I asking 'why do you hate the implementation of vancian casting in D&D' but rather 'why do you hate vancian casting?'

[Rogue Shadows]

Partially fluff reasons. There's dissonance between the way magic works in D&D verses the way magic traditionally works in myths and stories. Merlin didn't prepare spells, he just looked at something sternly and muttered to himself and bam! you're a toad now.


Partially it's probably also the fact that spellcasting tends to be overpowered, and so a lot of the hate goes towards the Vancian system as a result of a belief that it's the system itself that's to blame. Me, I think it's actually the fault of the individual pieces, all of which can be repaired of we try hard enough.

[Tyndmyr]

I dunno, I'm pretty ok with it. I think it works well for stories too, rather than this sort of open ended god-like casters with no real limits.

[Grac]

Partially fluff reasons. There's dissonance between the way magic works in D&D verses the way magic traditionally works in myths and stories. Merlin didn't prepare spells, he just looked at something sternly and muttered to himself and bam! you're a toad now.


Partially it's probably also the fact that spellcasting tends to be overpowered, and so a lot of the hate goes towards the Vancian system as a result of a belief that it's the system itself that's to blame. Me, I think it's actually the fault of the individual pieces, all of which can be repaired of we try hard enough.

That doesn't make sense to me. A 'merlin' type character can easily be created with the other magic systems, both the 'modified-vancian' system used by sorc's, the entirely un-vancian system of Warlocks, or the power points of 3e psionics, or the 4e system. Why does it matter if a specific character type can't be created in one system?

The second certainly seems plausible, which is unfortunate, because it ignores the real issue (the wide variety of spells, specific problems with specific spells, and so on) while attacking something irrelevant :/

[Ecalsneerg]

I dislike it because, in all fantasy, the only magic users of any shape or form to use Vancian spellcasting are... hold on, not even Jack Vance's writing uses Vancian casting in the way D&D uses it.

[Totally Guy]

I dislike the way D&D magic works because there is no conflict to it.

I think this video helps explain how its lack of conflict is dissatisfying for me as a player. Penny Arcade Extra Credits

[NikitaDarkstar]

I dislike it because while it mechanically makes sense to limit a magic user to control their power (even if it failed in a laughably bad way) there's pretty much no way to explain it IC. You know a spell but can only use it a limited amount of times per day, if you prepared it. If you want to cast it more than once you have to prepare it more than once. This applies to all spells no matter how banal and no matter how powerful you are. Spells can't really backfire on you (some consider this good, but I find it a little silly, especially with big and powerful spells) and there's no physical reason for you to not be able to force the issue and cast a spell one more time as long as you know the spell.

No offense but that just doesn't sit well with me.

Also as has been pointed out, not even Vance uses his magic system in this way.

[nedz]

I dislike it because, in all fantasy, the only magic users of any shape or form to use Vancian spellcasting are... hold on, not even Jack Vance's writing uses Vancian casting in the way D&D uses it.

IIRC there were only 99 spells known in the whole wide world.

The main issue is that its been done, and there are other options.

And the other main issue are, well all the well known ones.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I dislike it because I don't think it accomplishes anything useful, mechanically. Fluff concerns aside, are there any actual advantages the vancian system provides, mechanically?

[Morty]

I dislike it because while it mechanically makes sense to limit a magic user to control their power (even if it failed in a laughably bad way) there's pretty much no way to explain it IC. You know a spell but can only use it a limited amount of times per day, if you prepared it. If you want to cast it more than once you have to prepare it more than once. This applies to all spells no matter how banal and no matter how powerful you are. Spells can't really backfire on you (some consider this good, but I find it a little silly, especially with big and powerful spells) and there's no physical reason for you to not be able to force the issue and cast a spell one more time as long as you know the spell.

No offense but that just doesn't sit well with me.

Also as has been pointed out, not even Vance uses his magic system in this way.

It's actually perfectly easy to explain. You cast the spells in the morning, which takes a while, and then leave them almost completed in your mind. Then you "trigger" them, which fires them off and removes them from your mind.
As for the "noone else uses it"... right. I don't know about you guys, but when I play tabletop, my goal is to create something new, not replicate existing fiction...

[Shadowknight12]

Because it's been overused. It's the literal base upon which ALL supernatural or magical effects exist in D&D. A lot of the subsystems that came out in 3.5e (Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, Incarnum, etc) were merely another way to do Vancian magic, as they were the same effects shuffled around and given a new coat of paint.

I personally welcome all things that are not Vancian magic, because I've been way overexposed to it.

My personal preference when it comes to magic is the traditional pool of "mana points" that gets expended when casting spells (like psionics handles it).

[Verte]

Well, I like Vancian casting for wizards - I mean, the fluff explanation works for me. I picture it as the wizard going through the most complex part of each spell at the beginning of the day, preparing them to be "released" in a much shorter time when he needs them later.

Spells can't really backfire on you (some consider this good, but I find it a little silly, especially with big and powerful spells) and there's no physical reason for you to not be able to force the issue and cast a spell one more time as long as you know the spell.

Keep in mind, this particular system was used for BD&D and AD&D. I know that in AD&D, at least, there were a number of spells that could backfire on the caster. Fireball could literally blow up in a magic-user's face if he cast it in a hallway (since it would fill up a predetermined volume) and lightning bolt could strike back at a magic-user (since it would rebound if there wasn't enough space).

The reason I mention this is that I think one of the big reasons it's continued to be used is because it was used from nearly the beginning.

[Kurald Galain]

I think there's not really a general "hate" for Vancian casting, but there's a vocal minority on internet forums that strongly dislikes 3E D&D, and as a consequence dislikes everything they associate with it.

For example, Pathfinder uses Vancian and it's the best-selling RPG of the moment; and 5E D&D is intending to bring back Vancian as well - so the general population of roleplayers must have little or no problem with it.

[Tengu_temp]

1. Vancian magic feels like an extremely artificial system in all settings but those that have IC rules for magic written explicitly to work like that. Which is not DND.
2. In theory, the spell slots idea is supposed to make spellcasters use their spells responsibly. In practice, it means that low-level wizards often have to be extremely stingy with spells, while high-level ones have so many spells that they don't even notice.
3. Any system where you can more or less effortlessly breeze through a normally hard encounter by going nova is not a very good system in my book.
4. Too much book-keeping.

[Kurald Galain]

2. In theory, the spell slots idea is supposed to make spellcasters use their spells responsibly. In practice, it means that low-level wizards often have to be extremely stingy with spells, while high-level ones have so many spells that they don't even notice.
3. Any system where you can more or less effortlessly breeze through a normally hard encounter by going nova is not a very good system in my book.

True, but these are the result of 3E's implementation of Vancian casting; they are not inherent to Vancian casting in general.

[oxybe]

issues with the system itself:

1) focuses on an adventuring day rather then encounter/scene based. managing your resources is based on your ability to accurately predict or manage the number of encounters you'll be having that day. it also punished low-encounter adventures as it allows the caster to nova several powerful effects without a problem

2) due to the limited renewal ability (renews in the morning) if various characters manage their abilities in different fashions, a vancian caster who runs out of steam is either a liability/dead weight at best or someone who slows down the pacing of the adventure by asking for rests

3) it simply doesn't work for all casters. not every caster is a revolver made of magic bullets. some, like the potterverse wizards can simply cast all day long any spell from their repertoire. some, like in the avatar cartoon, are focused on a theme. others require a longer, more drawn out ritualistic process.

the D&D-style magic bullet simply doesn't work for most mages i know of in myth and legend.

4) a)more of an aside rather then an issue with vancian itself, but D&D's had a horrible track record for giving all the toys to the casters while giving sticks to the non-casters. it's more of an annoying stigma then anything else, but still.

4) b)a second aside: if you're going to use vancian magic to limit the number of spells a caster can cast, don't give them bypasses like scrolls/wands/etc...

[Verte]

Originally Posted by Tengu_temp

2. In theory, the spell slots idea is supposed to make spellcasters use their spells responsibly. In practice, it means that low-level wizards often have to be extremely stingy with spells, while high-level ones have so many spells that they don't even notice.
3. Any system where you can more or less effortlessly breeze through a normally hard encounter by going nova is not a very good system in my book.

True, but these are the result of 3E's implementation of Vancian casting; they are not inherent to Vancian casting in general.

Yeah, this is definitely true. In AD&D, higher level spells took a longer time to prepare and required more rest to do so. A level 1 magic-user would rest for 4 hours and spend 15 minutes preparing his single spell. A level 20 magic-user would rest for at least 12 hours and spend 40.5 hours in order to prepare all of his spells.

[endoperez]

I dislike the way D&D magic works because there is no conflict to it.

I think this video helps explain how its lack of conflict is dissatisfying for me as a player. Penny Arcade Extra Credits

There are both what the episode calls "incomparables" and "insufficient information problems" in Vancian casting.

Choosing between "Fly", "Fireball" or "Invisibility", for example, is a choice between incomparables.
How many damage spells, and what damage spells, is a calculation (when you know the enemy and can prepare for it), or an insufficient information problem (when you don't).

And that's just the preparing! While casting, you're always facing another insufficient information choice or a calculation. You won't know about the future, usually, but you will know quite a lot about the problem you're trying to solve.

Playing a warlock or sorcerer for several sessions without leveling up, and as such not getting to choose new powers, has less choices than a vancian prepared caster.

[VeliciaL]

I simply find it fairly unintuitive, largely for reasons already mentioned. I also don't care for how it's become more or less the de-facto standard, there's not a whole lot of options for those of us who want to play wizard like characters, but not use Vancian casting.

[Totally Guy]

And that's just the preparing!

We don't tend to roleplay out our preparation scenes.

When I run games my strongest style is to have key issues that the players agonise over. And the D&D magic system fails me here. I don't feel like the game is supporting the concepts I want to be important.

I want to see the player saying "Oh man, there's a thing my character wants really badly. Is it worth using a spell to get it? Urrgh! I just can't decide!"

[Scots Dragon]

I simply find it fairly unintuitive, largely for reasons already mentioned. I also don't care for how it's become more or less the de-facto standard, there's not a whole lot of options for those of us who want to play wizard like characters, but not use Vancian casting.

It became 'more or less the de-facto standard' in 1974. The better part of four decades. It's as iconic to the game as the simple fact of clerics, fighter, mages, elves, halflings and dwarves being in the core rules and dragons having age categories. It does in fact precede the thief as a class.

It's a fundamental part of what makes Dungeons & Dragons what it is.

And there are options available for those who don't wish to use Vancian wizards, such as the spell point variant in Unearthed Arcana

[Yora]

I give the same reason I always give in these threads.

Virtually all magic systems follow a concept that we can see all throughout nature and know from everyday life. If you have the equipment and the raw material, then you can repeat the process for as long as the raw material does not run out. So if you have the ability to cast a spell and you also have magical power, you can cast any spell you know until you run out of power or you lose the ability to cast spells.

Vancian casting is different. Once a spell is used, you can not cast it again even though you still have the ability to cast spells and you still have magic power. This is unique and does not have any equivalent in nature.

The only exception would be if you consider the preparing of spells to be the creation of spells, and the casting of spells the using of a magic item that exist in your brain.
I think Vance actually had this in mind. An odd idea, but it's his novels and he can make magic in his world work as he wants to. It's still unique and completely different to every single system of magic I ever heard of.
However, D&D does never say that magic is supposed to work that way, and it never gives any reason why all fantasy campaigns should use a system of magic unique to a single world, regardless of what world the game takes place in.

Why have a game that is adaptable to almost any world and have it use a magic system that is unique to a single world, that most people never have even heard off?

[Kurald Galain]

Virtually all magic systems follow a concept that we can see all throughout nature and know from everyday life. If you have the equipment and the raw material, then you can repeat the process for as long as the raw material does not run out.

I think you should read more fantasy books, then. This is far from universal in fantasy settings.

[Eldan]

And again, it makes sense if you assume the preparation session in the morning to be the time when the spell is actually cast. Which, I must admit, is never really said in the fluff. But it should be, because it's by far one of the most interesting ways to implement magic I've ever seen in any RPG.

And I'd just say that while I love Vancian, I find psionics to be the worst magic system D&D has. Boring mechanics, barely any unique effects, lack of fluff, and not enough powers available to build more than a handful of character types. The last one, sadly, plagues most non-core classes, but at least those have an interesting basic type or two.

[Kurald Galain]

And again, it makes sense if you assume the preparation session in the morning to be the time when the spell is actually cast. Which, I must admit, is never really said in the fluff.

Actually this is stated outright in the Chronicles of Amber (and its associated RPG), one of several non-D&D fantasy settings that actually uses Vancian casting. Yes, they exist

[Eldan]

I know its out there in the books. And apparently also RPGs based on those books (I should have a look at that. Amber RPG sounds like an awesome idea).

But I don't think it's in any actual D&D books.

[Urpriest]

My biggest problem with Vancian casting (and dailies in 4e) is that they overemphasize daily resources and hence make the plot hinge on the process of an arbitrary calendar rather than the actual progress of the plot. While this isn't inherently a part of the concept (you could simply have Vancian spells that can be prepared whenever you want to stop and prepare them), it is hard to balance any other way.

As was mentioned by others, Vancian casting is simply uncommon. D&D has some reputation as a generic fantasy system, with Wizards' absurd versatility arising in part because they are supposed to cover almost every archetype of fantasy magic. This is problematic when people approach D&D expecting to create a generic fantasy character and find that they are restricted to a very obscure and rare sort of magical system. That said, it must be recognized that D&D is essentially a subgenre of its own rather than a real pan-fantasy game, and in that subgenre Vancian casting is quite important. I still think that D&D can have its iconic feel without having its Vancian mechanics be strictly daily in nature, though.

[Eldan]

I tried making a non-daily focused Vancian system in the homebrew forum. I don't think I ever got more than two replies to it, though, so I guess there wasn't much interest.

[nedz]

Well I did come up with a concept that led to a not neccessarily daily vancian system, but you probably wouldn't like it.

[dsmiles]

Well, personally I dislike it because I feel like it doesn't represent any sort of fatigue on the caster's part. I fully believe that wrestling with the laws of the universe should take something out of you, leave you tired. Which is why I adore the BESM: Advanced d20 Magic system. (Also seen in BESM: The Slayers d20 RPG.) Described below:

Spoiler

Show

It uses a system where you make Fortitude saves to resist "drain" from casting spells. Drain is in the form of non-lethal damage (or lethal damage, if you, as a caster, want to increase your ability to resist said drain). Make the save by more than 10 (entirely possible, if you choose level-appropriate spells) and you take 1/2 the drain damage and successfully cast the spell. Make the save by 9 or less, and you take the drain damage and successfully cast the spell. Fail the save by 9 or less, and you take the drain damage and have to make a caster level check to cast the spell. Fail the save by more than 10, you take double the drain damage, make a caster level check to successfully cast the spell, and are fatigued. There are various things you can do to increase your save bonus (take a full-round action to cast, opt for lethal damage as drain, take certain feats, etc.), but it represents the fatigue that Vancian magic fails so hard at.