(Pathfinder PEACH) Possibly balanced, or unfairly weaking to Sorcerers?

[Roxxy]

I've converted over to gradient spellcasting. I've already come up with ways to keep this under control and keep martial characters relavent. My one issue is that it makes Sorcerers and Wizards cast very similarly to each other. I want them to feel very different in the way they cast spells. The suggestion of merging the two classes has been made, but I like the Sorcerer's flavor and the way Pathfinder added a lot of things to it. So, I'm considering some changes.

First off, my gradient Sorcerer uses the spell progression listed in in the Core Rulebook as far as number of spells goes. It has only Instinctive and Practiced experience levels, not Experimental. It starts out with 0 level spells as Instinctive, and 1st level becomes instinctive at 11th level, 2nd at 13th, 3rd at 15th, and 4th at 17th (No class may have anything higher than 4th level spells as Instinctive. Wizards gain Instinctive spell levels at the same levels as Sorcerers do).

Here's where things change. Sorcerers may never learn any spell higher than 6th level. Period. They posses spell slots for 7 to 9 level spells, but they have to use metamagic to use them. In exchange for this serious blow, they don't increase casting time when applying metamagic, and they don't have to purchase a metamagic feat to use it. At first level, they can use any metamagic feat that does not have another metamagic feat as a prerequisite, so long as they meet any other prerequisites of the metamagic feat. At 3rd level, they may use a metamagic feat that has another metamagic feat as a prerequisite, so long as they are able to use the requisite feat or feats.

Sorcerers do not actually HAVE these metamagic feats, they are just allowed to use them as if they did. This ability only applies to spells gained for Sorcerer levels, so you cannot just dip a level of Sorcerer for the metamagic and then switch to another class. A Sorcerer of at least third level may use it's metamagic access to qualify for pretige classes that require metamagic feats.

I allow a lot of supplemental and third party materiel in my games, so there are a LOT of metamagic feats available, so being able to use most of them whenever you want gives you a lot of versatility. Under this idea, it seems to me that, while Wizards would retain their customary versatility in sheer amount of spells available, Sorcerers would have their own form of versatility. While they would only have a few spells, they would have a massive amount of ways to modify those spells, making them flexible in their own way. Sure, you only know a few spells. You can modify them on the fly in scores of different ways, however. I don't think that's something to scoff at.

Does this sound as good an idea to you guys as it does to me?

[DracoDei]

I don't know hardly anything about PF, but it seems to me like up until you WOULD get 6th level spells you are talking about a pure power boost since you aren't losing anything.

[Roxxy]

Yes, but Sorcerers could use the power boost to be able to keep up with a Wizard. Wizards got some power boosts of their own do to the fact that gradient spellcasting does a lot more for them than it does for Sorcerers.

As for the caster-martial disparity that this will surely widen, I've got some new toys for martials to play with that should keep them in the game.

[Lord_Gareth]

Yes, but Sorcerers could use the boost.

Noooo they couldn't.

[Roxxy]

Noooo they couldn't.

Yes, they could. Gradient spellcasting benefits the Wizard to a far higher degree than the Sorcerer. Sorcerers need something to compensate for that factor.

[Lord_Gareth]

Yes, they could. Gradient spellcasting benefits the Wizard to a far higher degree than the Sorcerer. Sorcerers need something to compensate for that factor.

Wizards being more powerful than sorcerers is already the status quo. Both classes, especially in Pathfinder, are in desperate need of a nerf, not a power boost of any variety - especially not a boost to metamagic, the largest source of their personal prowess to begin with.

[eftexar]

As much as I like how pathfinder balanced most things out, yeah the wizard and sorcerer were broken before pathfinder made them moreso.

I remember seeing a well done system floating around the forums that limited spellcasters to 7th level spells. As far as per encounter goes, that might work, but per encounters are difficult to balances. Have you seen the spell shape system as well. There are some pretty good ideas there.

[Lemmy]

Sorcerers are still very powerful, only not as much as wizards.

But I'd not mind sorcerers getting a power boost ff, and only ff the spell lists were rebalanced. Paizo did a great job with some spells, but still left some that are way too powerful. (Polymorph Any Object, anyone?)

If every caster had limited spells known and the most problamatic spells, such as Gate and Mass Suffocation, were nerfed or even removed, I'd be satisfied.

The only way to balance casters is fixing their spell lists and reducing their access to such spells.

[Roxxy]

Wizards being more powerful than sorcerers is already the status quo. Both classes, especially in Pathfinder, are in desperate need of a nerf, not a power boost of any variety - especially not a boost to metamagic, the largest source of their personal prowess to begin with.

I know it's a power boost, but I gave martials their own boosts, and I gave spellcasters some nerfs in other areas (namely vulnerability).