classless rpg

[robertbevan]

i really enjoy playing d&d 3.5, and that's most likely what i'll continue to play for the foreseeable future, but i was wondering if there were any games out there that did away with classes entirely.

what i've got in mind is pooling all of the skills, feats, special class abilities, spellcasting levels (or maybe even just individual spells) into one big buffet, and the character could just choose whatever they wanted (after meeting certain prerequisites). i think people would still tend to pick things that went along with a certain character class archetype, but if there's a big brawny guy who happens to be smart enough, why shouldn't he dabble a bit in magic? (yes, i know that multiclassing exists, but i'm just thinking out loud.)

or does this just sound like a stupid idea?

[eggs]

There are hundreds. I'd list examples, but I wouldn't be surprised if they outnumbered class-based games; it seems a little silly.

So it's not a bad idea. In any genre, you should be able to find a good number of systems without classes or their associated baggage.

[Gavinfoxx]

It sounds like he wants a very D&D-LIKE system that is classless.

Try Mutants and Masterminds.

[Chookster]

Call of Cthulhu is what immediately spring to mind but yea there are loads

[JeminiZero]

The homebrew in my signature might interest you.

But otherwise yeah, there are already plenty of classless systems out there. Try Mutants and Masterminds, which is meant to emulate the superhero genre.

[Kelb_Panthera]

heck, if you've got a copy of unearthed arcana, you can play D&D 3.5 as a classless system.

[Knaight]

I'm reasonably sure that classless RPGs vastly outnumber classed RPGs. Were I to guess, I'd put it between one and two orders of magnitude, and between two and three orders of magnitude for anything published after 2005. That said, only a few are particularly close to D&D in spirit, and fewer are close and also have complicated mechanics.

As such, I'd reccomend looking at Burning Wheel. It fits both of those criteria.

[Madcrafter]

May I also suggest GURPS; its customizable for any setting/style you want to play, though a little complex (still easy to learn, just complex). Plus, some of their splatbooks are ridiculously good from my experience (seriously, you could use them in research papers).

[JBento]

Or the game created by folks from this very forum, Legend, which just SEEMS class-based (but is, in fact, not, though not as modular as GURPS or MM).

http://www.ruleofcool.com

Also, an up-and-coming RPG called Shadows of Esteren, which should be released in the US soon. The original is French, Ombres d'Esteren.

[oxinabox]

don't restrict your self to 3.5.
Especally if you haven't had a taste of what else is out there.

Honestly DnD is a pretty unique system (in the bad way).
*It has classes, that REALLY define your character more than anything else. (the only other system I can thing of that hits you that hard with classes is some from the Dark Heresy Family (Black Crusade being the execption)
*It has this concept that hitting people with a sword isn't a skill. It is something more fundermental. The Basic Attack Bonus is just plain weird.
*Rolling for things when you level up (Hit points). Why should someof your characters most important attributes be determined by chance?

That said 3.5 was my first system, and it took me a long time to get away from it, and thinking that all systems must be like it.
(luckily I made experienced friends)

I'ld like to be able to recommend you a classless system, for the same setting as DnD. But I haven't played medieval fantasy since i stopped playing dnd.
Actually thats not true. I've played Zorcerer of Zo, but that might break the mind of someone who has only been exposed to DnD, in that it comes from the far end, of simplistic generality and storytelling, over complex specifics and rules (admittedly not as far as Wushu)

I would suggest looking in Exalted, but thats not sword and sorcery (it might workout though I've never played it, but have played in related systems)

[Jack of Spades]

Echoing sentiments a bit here, but you're actually in a pretty enviable position for someone who's into RPG's, from the looks of it-- You haven't seen most of what's out there. So I'd recommend looking around at local gaming groups if you can get a chance. There are LOADS of classless RPG's out there, and almost all of them are still played to some extent.

Unfortunately, there aren't many that are specifically built for Tolkein-esque medieval fantasy. I certainly can't think of any, off the top of my head. However, GURPS and BESM (Big Eyes Small Mouth) (if you're into that kind of thing) can be played medieval pretty easily as they're meant to be universal. I believe World of Darkness has rules for medieval junk, but it's more of a modern-setting system. Legend of the Five Rings has classes, but from what I've seen they aren't quite as integral to one's character build as they are in DnD. In addition, the Giant makes a case for using d20 Modern as a system for DnD style worlds without the restrictiveness of classes in the New World articles.

All in all though, you're going to find that DnD is probably the best at doing filled-with-walking-archetypes medieval fantasy, because that's what it was built for and very few successful RPG's have wanted to challenge it for that turf. If you're open to other settings, though, definitely check out the systems I mentioned above, as well as the more niche games like Call of Cthulhu, Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch and Deadlands based on what genres tickle your fancy.

Oh, and here's a rabbit hole for rpg systems.

[Morghen]

A classless RPG?

Sounds like F.A.T.A.L. to me.



<rim shot>

[Knaight]

A classless RPG?

Sounds like F.A.T.A.L. to me.



<rim shot>

On the off chance that this is actually taken as a serious suggestion, I have a few things to point out.
1) F.A.T.A.L has classes. It does not have any class whatsoever.
2) F.A.T.A.L originally stood for From Fantasy Adventure to Adult Lechery.
3) The RPG.net review of FATAL includes the line "Burning FATAL would be an insult to fire". This review is widely seen as being too nice to the game. Avoid it like the plague.

[Hylas]

3.5 was my first RPG system too, and it did take a while to get used to other systems. Let me tell you the biggest hurdle:

You will never be a D&D wizard in anything but D&D.

Seriously, magic in D&D is so much more powerful and gives you so many options compared to anything else out there that you'll feel very weak and limited. Either by the few castings you get per fight or by the few spells you know. This is a good thing because wizards are notoriously powerful in D&D. In Warhammer Fantasy (this is from memory, so I may be off) a starting wizard gets 10 spells that are effectively cantrips and a wizard lord that is in charge of a guild gets 20 spells. On the plus side you have unlimited castings, but watch out for failures as you'll probably explode or turn into a daemon. On the flip side, GURPS lets you know a lot of spells very easily but casting multiple spells in a single combat will leave you as a crumbled heap of exhaustion, or with all of your power stones drained.

For systems to recommend checking out. I like Warhammer Fantasy. My gripes with it is that it's very tied to the setting, so putting it anywhere else will require a lot of fluff. The system is also quite the opposite of classless, as progression is all about changing into a new career. However each character will take a different path to becoming awesome, which makes it similar to burning wheel. Let's say two people both want to become Champions, the best toe-to-toe fighting class in the game. One person can go Estalian Diestro > Duellist > Champion and make a finesse focused swordsman. Another can go Bounty Hunter > Targeteer > Champion for a bow focused character. They're very different even though they end up in the same class. Warhammer Fantasy also supports non-combat classes as more than half of the classes aren't combat focused at all. Potential problems with the system are that it's very tied to the setting, it's low-magic, the encumbrance system is horrible, and I've found it difficult to homebrew for it (one person wanted to be a fairy once, and I couldn't make anything that was balanced).

GURPS is a universal system. There's plenty of books to expand the medieval fantasy settings, most notably low-tech and magic. There's lots of rules for everything you could want so you'll need to learn to filter out stuff that you don't need, like rules for ICBMs and assault rifles. In my experience, as long as you aren't "epic level" wizards usually only have one or two good blasts in them before they're out of the fight, but magic can be anywhere from low-magic to high-magic depending on what you want. The DM will have to learn what is and isn't allowed and to make sure that players don't double-dip to make their characters too powerful, such as taking the disadvantages of "dead broke" and "vow of poverty" since they both do the same thing. Making characters also involves a lot of math at first, but once it's all done making tests is incredibly easy and only ever involves a quick glance at the character sheet.

[Arbane]

OP: As people have said, the vast majority of RPGs that aren't deliberately copying D&D's class system either have vastly less-restricted classes or no classes at all. I'd recommend taking a look at RuneQuest (mostly skill-based system for fantasy), and GURPS, for starters.

don't restrict your self to 3.5.
Especally if you haven't had a taste of what else is out there.

I would suggest looking in Exalted, but thats not sword and sorcery (it might workout though I've never played it, but have played in related systems)

Objection. Exalted is VERY MUCH a Sword and Sorcery setting - it's just a VERY different one from D&D.

Unfortunately, there aren't many that are specifically built for Tolkein-esque medieval fantasy.

The One Ring RPG? (Also the old Middle Earth RPG, which ISTR was a Rolemaster variant.)

[Hiro Protagonest]

I recommend Strands of Fate.

Objection. Exalted is VERY MUCH a Sword and Sorcery setting - it's just a VERY different one from D&D.

It's definitely S&S.

However, people who know a lot about the mechanics of Exalted have a policy. Play freeform instead. Or a Strands of Fate conversion. Or, for a very rules-light system, Qwixalted (I recommend Daiklave's version. It has rules for Infernals). I recommend you still buy the books for the fluff, and Masters of Jade for the revised Creation-Ruling Mandate rules (the one major thing neither of those fixes do is Creation-Ruling Mandate. I think. I haven't really looked through them thoroughly).

[oxinabox]

Objection. Exalted is VERY MUCH a Sword and Sorcery setting - it's just a VERY different one from D&D.

My reading say it was Epic Fantasy.
But i bow before youre supirior knowledge of the system, since i've never played it

[Hiro Protagonest]

My reading say it was Epic Fantasy.

The two are mutually exclusive?

[Arbane]

The two are mutually exclusive?

None of the '* Fantasy' genres are very well defined. I think it's more helpful to name specific writers & stories a given work resembles.

Exalted is very deliberately not based on Tolkien's work - it's got a lot more in common with Robert E. Howard (at the mortal end) and the works of Tanith Lee (at the high end).

[Raum]

A few popular class-less systems with published fantasy setting material:

• Savage Worlds (several settings)
• GURPS
• FATE
• Unisystem (Victorian fantasy at least)
• One Roll Engine

Regarding Exalted, it has classes - just by another name.

[Arbane]

Regarding Exalted, it has classes - just by another name.

True, I suppose. The different types of Exalted are kind-of class-like. (And it's a LITERAL class system, too. All other things being equal, a Terrestrial Exalted will always be inferior to a Solar. ) The subdivisions within each type aren't as restrictive as most class-based systems, though.

[Tyndmyr]

7th Sea is fantasy, it's classless, and it also contains a notable magic element. It's not really the same deal as D&D wizards, but it's no less powerful...just different.

[Anxe]

Because it hasn't been suggested yet, the Lord of the Rings Roleplaying game. It has classes, but they have little to no affect on your character. It's extremely easy to just get a new class, so you can end up with brawny men who know a little magic or puny wizards who can shoot a crossbow at an apple from 100 paces. It's very similar to D&D and its currently going for $10 used/$30 new on Amazon.

That said, other systems are probably better than it. I played it and it wasn't to my liking. If I were you I would try one of the other suggestions here first.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Regarding Exalted, it has classes - just by another name.

No, it doesn't.
1) Caste has basically the effect of a single Charm, plus some very minor sway on abilities (no matter how much you want Dawn Caste, nobody aiming for a good point spread is ever going to go with more than three Dawn abilities - close combat, ranged combat, and mass combat)
2) Experience system is very different from "level up". And your Caste has little effect, probably less than your Favored Abilities, which you can choose any abilities on the list for (well, unless you're a Lunar, AKA, got the shaft).

[Raum]

No, it doesn't.
1) Caste has basically the effect of a single Charm, plus some very minor sway on abilities (no matter how much you want Dawn Caste, nobody aiming for a good point spread is ever going to go with more than three Dawn abilities - close combat, ranged combat, and mass combat)

You mention one caste...of five. Each of which has access to a differing group of charms / abilities. Fits my definition of 'class' even before you start adding all the non-solar types of exalted and their associated areas of specialty.

2) Experience system is very different from "level up". And your Caste has little effect, probably less than your Favored Abilities, which you can choose any abilities on the list for (well, unless you're a Lunar, AKA, got the shaft).

Levels != classes. Not sure how this is relevant.

[kyoryu]

GURPS is a universal system. There's plenty of books to expand the medieval fantasy settings, most notably low-tech and magic. There's lots of rules for everything you could want so you'll need to learn to filter out stuff that you don't need, like rules for ICBMs and assault rifles. In my experience, as long as you aren't "epic level" wizards usually only have one or two good blasts in them before they're out of the fight, but magic can be anywhere from low-magic to high-magic depending on what you want. The DM will have to learn what is and isn't allowed and to make sure that players don't double-dip to make their characters too powerful, such as taking the disadvantages of "dead broke" and "vow of poverty" since they both do the same thing. Making characters also involves a lot of math at first, but once it's all done making tests is incredibly easy and only ever involves a quick glance at the character sheet.

GURPS isn't really fully universal - it does better with characters that are supposed to be human-esque. Even their Supers supplements have been more targeted at Wild Cards-levels of power than four-color. So if you're more on the mundane side of D&D enjoyment, vs "our characters are little godlings", it might work. It definitely has a different "feel" than D&D.

As far as magic in GURPS, I'd highly recommend the UMana (unlimited mana) option.

[Hylas]

Right, I guess I should have mentioned that I always enjoyed the "lower level" aspects of RPGs more than the demi-god parts.

I just Googled UMana and I remember reading about it somewhere in the past and it definitely works if you want more of a D&D feel, with mana/day rather than a pool that regenerates by resting for a few minutes.

GURPS can be squishy sometimes, though not as squishy as Warhammer Fantasy.

[kyoryu]

Right, I guess I should have mentioned that I always enjoyed the "lower level" aspects of RPGs more than the demi-god parts.

I just Googled UMana and I remember reading about it somewhere in the past and it definitely works if you want more of a D&D feel, with mana/day rather than a pool that regenerates by resting for a few minutes.

GURPS can be squishy sometimes, though not as squishy as Warhammer Fantasy.

True... I find the squishiness of GURPS to be a weird beast. It's certainly easier to get knocked out of a fight than in, say, D&D, but in fantasy scenarios it's typically harder to be killed.

Of course, in modern scenarios, a headshot is usually pretty lethal, so I have to qualify that a bit :D

[Geostationary]

You mention one caste...of five. Each of which has access to a differing group of charms / abilities. Fits my definition of 'class' even before you start adding all the non-solar types of exalted and their associated areas of specialty.

The caste really doesn't do that much- unless I'm mistaken, in-caste abilities are functionally identical to favoured charms. Beyond making it slightly cheaper in terms of xp, and affecting your initial charm loadout, caste doesn't mechanically do all that much. There's also the caste ability, but they're just an additional charm-like ability you get. Other than that, Exalted is more or less a classless point-based system.

[Hylas]

True... I find the squishiness of GURPS to be a weird beast. It's certainly easier to get knocked out of a fight than in, say, D&D, but in fantasy scenarios it's typically harder to be killed.

Of course, in modern scenarios, a headshot is usually pretty lethal, so I have to qualify that a bit :D

Being heroes, player characters should be tough and hard to kill, but comparatively easy to knock out. Plus it's no fun to make a new character in the middle of a campaign.

I've only played 4e and at TL3, so I can't say how guns fare from experience, but their stats lend them to blowing up heads, yes.