Players leaving a dungeon and coming back

[yougi]

Hi!

If you want info related directly to my game, here it is.

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I'm running a 3.5 game where my PCs are exploring a Bugbear Fort that was taken over by a some Mutant fanatics of an obscure, crystal worshiping religion. The Fort therefore now has these guys (called Southerners) at the top of the chain, with the Bugbears under them, and a troupe of Orcs and Humans right under them. Plus, the Southerners have converted a couple of these newcomers to their religion, which has given a few of them some minor mutations.

Now here is my problem: the PCs (a Shifter Samurai, a Krynn Minotaur Cleric/Fighter, a human rogue/ranger, a gnome illusionist and an elven Favored Soul) went there twice to leave right after, while acting as, well, the opposite of tactical. The first time, the found the Boss' secret exit from outside, followed it to the Boss' Quarters, and decided to, after a bit of exploration, sleep in there. When the Boss came in with his bodyguard, fight broke loose, and Boss left to get some backup. In the end, they killed three other Southerners, the Mutant Bodyguard and the couple of Orcs who were on that floor. Then, the Minotaur held them off while the rest of the group left the Fort through the secret exit. They had lost their horses quite a while before, and walked all the way to town.

They came back a good week later (with a new friend, another Minotaur, but this time, a Barbarian) and decided to attack the towers outside, which they did successfully. They then entered, and the Gnome Illusionist made the Rogue invisible. He tried to go around to backstab them, but through other rooms. He opened the door to a Barracks containing, amongst other things, a Cleric who had Invisibility Purge prepared. In the end, they killed every single orc and human left in there, but lost two (the Favored Soul and the Samurai). It will take them 4 days to get to town, and 2 or 4 days to get back to the Fort.

Now I asked the remaining players if they wanted to go back in there, and they definitely do. My problem is I'm wondering how I should adapt the Fort, given that all of the grunts died, but all of the higher level guys are still there. What should I do?

I thought of animate dead in order to have a good pack of grunt, but that seems unfair to me: they did do some damage, which will all be erased. Although that would be realistic.

I also thought of almost emptying the Fort and sending the remaining Bugbears on Patrols, in groups of 3 with a Southerner. That way, the Fort would be empty (as it pretty much is right now), but there would be a reason for it.

Here is my question:
Do you, as a DM, adapt dungeons or adventures when your PCs give the opposition time to regroup? How would you do so in my case?

[Grail]

The PC's keep breaking into these guys house, kicking stuff over and stabbing guys to death. Why don't the Southerners follow them back to their base and do the same?

Saying that, mercenaries.

or

Are the Southerner's doing anything illegal? Maybe they could petition the local Nobleman to send some soldiers to defend their rights.

How would the characters handle it if they turn up and the Southerners and their keep are under the protection of the local authorities?

[Grail]

And further to that, if the Southerners get Mercenaries or petition the local authorities, then you can have one or more of the new defenders being npc's that are known to the characters. See if they're as keen to do bloody murder upon an acquaintance or friend.

[Sidmen]

I'm assuming "mutant cult" precludes the authorities coming in to help the Southerners. But, geez, why are the bugbears and Crystal-worshipers even hanging around anymore? Their base has clearly been found out and their minions are dead - and they absolutely know that there were survivors. They should run away and take everything of value - go find some other place to set up shop, and this time prepare for attack far better.

[Grail]

Illusions can make even the most mutant cultist appear an upstanding citizen. If they haven't done anything illegal, and offer enough tithing to the local lord, I'm sure he would help his new best mates. :p

[Thinker]

All of the suggestions have been good ones. Undead and mercenaries are a good way to go, especially since they should be prepared for future attacks. They should also have scouts out on patrol in the area around the fortification at this point. The cult should probably also take the time to reinforce their fortifications.

If this is just a hideout for a group of outlaws (religious or not), they should probably leave by now. They've been discovered and criminals don't like clashing with the authorities. If they're not outlaws, they should be able to call on the authorities for aid and can probably describe their attackers to the authorities.

[yougi]

They've actually done illegal stuff, mostly raiding local villages, enslaving the young and sending them to work in mines to get those crystals. Although your idea of them being hidden does sound pretty cool, maybe for another outpost or something.

I guess mercenaries would be a good idea.

I've thought of having the Southerners simply leaving, but the players have shown a lot of interest in ending them. Plus, I can always bring some other mutants back later.

As for the Southerners attacking the PCs, definitely. How? An ambush while they're on their way? A straight out raid of the town they're staying at? I guess Speak with Dead would give them the information of what town they're staying at... Interesting idea!

[Yora]

Since they have lots of enemies and secrecy is a major concern, I'd say they should abandon their current hideout. Even if they can defeat the PCs the next time, they might already have told others of the locations and every time someone attacks them they lose more people and money with no realistic chance that people will eventually give up attacking them.

However, once this issue is dealt with, there's still a group of people who found them once and probably will keep searching for their new hideout. And maybe next time they won't even try to attack and go straight back to tell the new location, making everything worse. So once the cult has settled in, they should try to get rid of the PCs.
An ambush on the old base would be one good option. Maybe lure them inside and trap them there. If that fails, they can send out their own spies to find where the PCs are staying and then send assassins to them. In both cases, they could make sloppy mistakes and leave clues for the PCs that lead to the new base.

[Sidmen]

I've thought of having the Southerners simply leaving, but the players have shown a lot of interest in ending them. Plus, I can always bring some other mutants back later.

Excellent! That gives them a motivation to follow the mutants when they leave. Unless the Southerners are incredibly dim-witted, you'd be doing them a disservice if they stayed where they were and waited for the heroes to come slay them.

If I may leave a suggestion: leave the players a note when they come back.

To Whom it May Concern:
We heartily congratulate you on your successes in stalling our plans, but wish to inform you that your efforts have been for naught. We would like to invite you to the grand Cathedral in the Whispering Wind Cavern so that you may be present for the end of our works.
Signed,
The Grand Cleric of the Southern Religion.

The cultists don't actually have anything in that cavern, and it is purely a trap for the players. Have it inhabited by an ill-tempered dragon or full of slimes that want to dissolve their meaty bits. That way, the players can go slay some completely unrelated beast and become irate when they learn that they were played like chumps by the Southerners. Nothing is better than having an enemy that is HATED by the players.

[yougi]

I guess you're right. Wow, that's an awful lot of planning to do!

Isn't it just so annoying when you make up this quite awesome dungeon/adventure, and your PCs force you to change it for something else? Grrr!

[Malak'ai]

Thats the joy of PC's!

Also, have the Southeners put the bodies of the fallen comrads on display in the middle of the fort somehow, stripped and desecrated (and I'm not meaning the spell) and also have them trap the fort to hell and back just to show the PC's that they are really annoyed.

[yougi]

Thats the joy of PC's!

Also, have the Southeners put the bodies of the fallen comrads on display in the middle of the fort somehow, stripped and desecrated (and I'm not meaning the spell) and also have them trap the fort to hell and back just to show the PC's that they are really annoyed.

Will do! See, the upside is that because the players annoyed me, it's much easier to RP those who are annoyed by the PCs!

[Thinker]

If you have the Southerners leave, you could have them also attack the town or village where the PCs are staying. It would be a good distraction to cover their own escape.

[Malak'ai]

Exactly!

Have them wander in easy as, and when they go looking for mutants, cultists, treasure or whatnot BAM! Hit them with spiked pits, cleverly rigged crossbows set up above doors, swinging logs, hidden sacks of acid flasks that fall if the tripwire is disturbed... Should teach them a lesson in poking their noses in where their not wanted .

[Anxe]

And before they leave, cast explosive runes on everything.

[Grail]

As to how to attack the players in town.... Nothing works better than sovereign glue on the doors of the inn and then setting it on fire. Even if the PCs manage to scramble out of the windows, they can lose loot, and what its more painful to a pc, a few scratches or lost dosh?

The other brilliant thing about that kind of attack its that it is risk free for the antagonists and they get plenty of opportunity to flee into the night. Also civilians will die in the flames, which will make the pc's unpopular in town if it is worked out why the inn was attacked.

[Kyberwulf]

Yeah, raise up stakes, then the dead.. leave them milling around. Trap everything in case the PC's come back,.. Take the most valuable stuff but leave behind some random Treasure as bait for the PCs ( Silly PCs Are SOO predictable.) I agree with the idea you should leave a map with an X on it( again silly PCs) then booby trap that cave.

[Mnemnosyne]

Unless there's something really vital that the enemies have in that specific place that cannot be moved, they leave this time. The first time they didn't seem to suffer a lot of losses, so it made sense that they stayed, but this time they suffered large losses, so the bosses are going to have to get the hell out of there, lay low for a while, and rebuild their forces.

Before they leave, they set as many traps as possible. The place will be completely empty with nothing valuable there, but it will be trapped to high heaven and back. Also, intentional 'clues' of some sort that suggest it's still in use, to encourage 'visitors' to blunder into the traps. And yes, if the enemies have the resources, animate every last corpse in that fort and leave them on permanent guard duty.

If the PC's want to find the masterminds now, they're going to have to start over from scratch, because the masterminds are going to get the hell out and leave as little a trail as possible. Don't give them any clues as to where the enemies have gone. They inflicted damage and caused their enemies great difficulty, but they also lost track of the enemies. This 'round' is a draw. Adjust the enemy plans, have them start over in a new location, better hidden, and ideally, give the PC's something else to tackle, because unless they have solid divinations and use them correctly, there should be minimal chance of actually finding these enemies again in the short term.

[Techsmart]

I see potential here for a recurring villain. Not only the ambush opportunities that the other posters have explained, but there is also someone on the loose who knows how the players work. That's more dangerous than the guy trying to ambush them. Next group of bandits may have an "inside source" on how the players function, and will be more prepared for them. More traps, better scouts, etc. On the ambush thing, I would say the grand cleric would intentionally attempt to ruin the players' image. After all, if the town has no use for them, why would they stay? Setting the cult up from scratch there afterwards would be a piece of cake.

As someone else said, it would be a disservice to the story, and, in an odd way, to your players to just have the head cleric sitting there waiting for them (even if he had went and got mercs). If I had a cult that was stealthed into twice, and most/all of my minions had fallen, it would be quite clear that direct conflict is not the way to go. I would move to another location, gather my resources, and either prepare a new cult, or find ways to eliminate the threat through non-direct routes.

[yougi]

Well thanks to all of you for those neat ideas and all! :) Really appreciate it!

[newBlazingAngel]

All of the above is a huge yes. Trap the fort to hell, leave a dozen red herrings. The PC's already hate these guys, use it to your favor. Make them hunt these guys to the ends of the earth.

[SanguisAevum]

Sounds like the begginings of some recuring villains to me :)

Nothing better than a set of bad guys the PCs REALLY hate and want to end.

Whatever happens, please come and update us, i would love to hear how this turns out :)

[Acanous]

Sap the supports, just enough to leave the building standing. Have a trap with, say, Alchemist's fire burning through a rope mesh that holds the last supports up.
In the Trap rules: It's an auto-hit mechanical trap, triggered by opening a door (To the treasury or armory) which causes *The building to collapse* after 6 rounds, dealing 20d6 points of bludgeoning damage.

There should be other traps along the corridors as well, of course. Simple ones that slow movement would be best.

Your players should get out indiana-jones style with the temple collapsing behind them.
Maybe the one guy who failed his ref save Vs pit trap dies in the process, it seems your game has high lethality.

[Thinker]

You don't have to try to kill the PCs. The challenges should be appropriate for them. The cult should simply be missing with few leads as to their whereabouts.

[Aquillion]

I'm assuming "mutant cult" precludes the authorities coming in to help the Southerners. But, geez, why are the bugbears and Crystal-worshipers even hanging around anymore? Their base has clearly been found out and their minions are dead - and they absolutely know that there were survivors. They should run away and take everything of value - go find some other place to set up shop, and this time prepare for attack far better.

This seems like a good plan (and it can be fun for the players, too.)

Have them leave behind some stuff by accident that the players can find with a careful search. After all, they're leaving in a hurry.

More importantly, leave behind enough hints and clues and such that the players can track them to their new base.

[yougi]

it seems your game has high lethality.

Believe me, I (and the players) wish it wasn't the case!

More importantly, leave behind enough hints and clues and such that the players can track them to their new base.

What kind of hints could there be? Here are some of my ideas:

- Tracks (obviously, with raided villages along the way)
- The journal of a previously deceased mook, saying that the Southerners had a safehouse somewhere else.
- A sea map (as the second hideout is on an island)

Should that be enough? Any other ideas?

[Friv]

Believe me, I (and the players) wish it wasn't the case!



What kind of hints could there be? Here are some of my ideas:

- Tracks (obviously, with raided villages along the way)
- The journal of a previously deceased mook, saying that the Southerners had a safehouse somewhere else.
- A sea map (as the second hideout is on an island)

Should that be enough? Any other ideas?

Well, if the players wind up having to get through a trap-infested, undead-filled fortress, leave some small stashes scattered around. Put at least one of them in the first room the players enter, so that they'll keep going and not just turn around and leave. The stashes were left by some of the people who died, so the guys in charge didn't know about them and didn't clear them out, and some of them include diaries or small one-use magical items that the mooks were saving for a critical battle. The diaries contain hints about where the cult planned to expand to, giving the players a region to go to for further investigation.

[Sidmen]

What kind of hints could there be? Here are some of my ideas:

- Tracks (obviously, with raided villages along the way)
- The journal of a previously deceased mook, saying that the Southerners had a safehouse somewhere else.
- A sea map (as the second hideout is on an island)

Should that be enough? Any other ideas?

I'd actually be hesitant to use any of those. Maps should be a definite NO outside the leadership (who wants a random mook to be able to betray you and give away your safe house?). Journals require literacy, which most mooks should lack, and the leaders who are alive wouldn't forget that. And Tracks(of I'm assuming 6 or so people) would be almost impossible to follow after a week (several days to town then back) - and Raided villages seem like a bad idea unless you want to be followed.

Instead, try to be a bit more subtle. A painting (in blood, since that is readily available) on the wall with a large tree sitting on a shoreline, a gem-shape off to sea - which tells survivors that they retreated to the island-base, and to wait by the old Oak on the shore for pick-up; maybe have a moon overhead to indicate "at night". If the players find the old oak, they will find a small boat coming every night to pick up stragglers (but where is this oak?).

Maybe a mook has a collection of seashells, or another has small wooden toys carved in the shape of boats - basically screaming "go to the ocean!" For this you can pay attention to characters that have Knowledge skills (Nature and Geography in particular), letting them narrow the search to "this one town which has this kind of clam".

Even if Literacy is rare (I obviously stray from the core DnD "everyone can read" conceit), you could have a couple scrunched up letters from the parents of one of the cultists, written in a style that Knowledge (Religion) people will call out as belonging to a particular church (its something about the prose) - there are a few such churches nearby, with a small shrine in a village near the sea.

I still suggest having a taunting note from the cult leader, maybe also a suspiciously untrapped book sitting out in the open that talks about a certain dangerous cave, and how to get there.

[SanguisAevum]

I'd actually be hesitant to use any of those. Maps should be a definite NO outside the leadership (who wants a random mook to be able to betray you and give away your safe house?). Journals require literacy, which most mooks should lack, and the leaders who are alive wouldn't forget that. And Tracks(of I'm assuming 6 or so people) would be almost impossible to follow after a week (several days to town then back) - and Raided villages seem like a bad idea unless you want to be followed.

Instead, try to be a bit more subtle. A painting (in blood, since that is readily available) on the wall with a large tree sitting on a shoreline, a gem-shape off to sea - which tells survivors that they retreated to the island-base, and to wait by the old Oak on the shore for pick-up; maybe have a moon overhead to indicate "at night". If the players find the old oak, they will find a small boat coming every night to pick up stragglers (but where is this oak?).

Maybe a mook has a collection of seashells, or another has small wooden toys carved in the shape of boats - basically screaming "go to the ocean!" For this you can pay attention to characters that have Knowledge skills (Nature and Geography in particular), letting them narrow the search to "this one town which has this kind of clam".

Even if Literacy is rare (I obviously stray from the core DnD "everyone can read" conceit), you could have a couple scrunched up letters from the parents of one of the cultists, written in a style that Knowledge (Religion) people will call out as belonging to a particular church (its something about the prose) - there are a few such churches nearby, with a small shrine in a village near the sea.

I still suggest having a taunting note from the cult leader, maybe also a suspiciously untrapped book sitting out in the open that talks about a certain dangerous cave, and how to get there.

THIS, is GOLDEN!

/applauds

[Thinker]

Believe me, I (and the players) wish it wasn't the case!



What kind of hints could there be? Here are some of my ideas:

- Tracks (obviously, with raided villages along the way)
- The journal of a previously deceased mook, saying that the Southerners had a safehouse somewhere else.
- A sea map (as the second hideout is on an island)

Should that be enough? Any other ideas?

You could have the tracks lead the party to a road that leads to a city. In the city the players could ask around about the cult leaders who they recognize. Maybe the Southerners have ties to the city or simply used it as a stopping point on the way to somewhere else. Whatever the case, make sure to leave three clues that direct the players to the next stop along the way. Some clues might be those tracks, an atlas with notes in the margins, an object known for being made in a certain area (knowledge local), a signet ring (knowledge nobility), a book with religious doctrine that ties the Southerners to another religion (knowledge religion), or a crazy old hermit who saw the direction they went.