Non-magical healing (poultice) 3.5 PEACH

[Debihuman]

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Every now and then I see something that piques my interest, Lately, it's been herbalism. There's a LOT of available products out there already. Bastion Press's Alchemy and Herbalism was my first source book. It gave me some ideas but I didn't like adding a new skill. Knowledge (Herbalism) seems like a subset of Knowledge (Nature) and bloats the system. Yes, I can see a Profession (Herbalist) but profession skills just mean you can earn a living off your skill (rather than resorting to begging, stealing and adventuring).

Still, there's not much that helps a PC party without magical healing. You use alchemy to make antitoxin, so why not something simple that doesn't require a whole book or subsystem to help in the short term?

I'm not crazy about magical herbs. To me, herbs are strictly non-magical used for flavoring foods and used to make non-magical medicines. Ah, see that's the problem with fantasy games. Most of the time, herbalism focuses on the magical nature of herbs. Sure, there is a place for that. However, the non-magical aspects of herbs are often overlooked. I also didn't want to step on the cleric's healing. A cleric's healing effects are immediate. To my mind, the natural herbal version of healing takes longer than magical healing and isn't as powerful but should be a nice addition.

Herbal Poultice [non-magical herbalism]

Once the proper herbal ingredients have been harvested (a successful DC 10 Knowledge (Nature) check ensures that the proper herbs have been gathered, an act that takes a minimum of 1 hour and can take much longer if the requisite plants are inaccessible), anyone can create a healing poultice. Creating a healing poultice requires one hour’s time and a successful DC 15 Craft (herbalism) or Profession (herbalist) check. ¹

Applying the poultice properly to a wound is Healing check (DC 15). Once applied, it takes 8 hours to take effect although it does not require rest while the healing takes place. If successful, the poultice heals 1d4 points of either lethal or nonlethal damage.

This is in addition to any other healing that may take place such as a magical or natural healing. If the applying character has 5 or more ranks in Craft (herbalism), the applier gains a +2 synergy bonus on healing checks to apply poultices. No character can benefit from the effects of more than 1 poultice per day.

A typical healing poultice can be made at almost no cost (it is just time intensive), but is sold at vastly inflated prices (usually for 5-8 gp, depending on the market). A healing poultice remains fresh for one month after which it loses its potency.

¹ If the DM allows other professions such as healers, midwives, etc. those with relevant skills can also make and use healing poultices.

Debby

edited for clarity and to keep it priced better.

[Deepbluediver]

I'm always in the mood for alternatives to the Clerics box-O'-bandaids (especially since my cleric fix strips many of them of that capability).
But there are a couple issues with this that pop out at me though.

Generaly speaking, I'm not sure this item does enough healing given it's cost and the time it takes to be effective, and it seems like it would rapidly lose it's value at higher levels because of it's low absolute value in healing done.

To start with, I would reconsider how long you need for it to work it's magic. Changing it to 8 or 12 hours would allow injured creatures to slap one on before bedtime, and then be ready to go again by morning. I know you said you wanted to differentiate between this and other forms of magical healing, but as it stands, it's the kind of thing NPC's use and adventurers don't even bother with.
Characters are supposed to (and correct me if I'm wrong) regain 1 HP/level every 24 hours anyway, so their natural vigor almost eclipses the "first aid" past level 3.

Allowing some one to apply more than one at a time might help. For example, you could apply two to each leg, one to each arm, 2 to the back and torso, and one to the head, which would provide a fair amount of healing, provided your target doesn't mind being mummified in bandages.

Secondly, assuming you want this to stay useful for the length of a campaign, then you should also come with some improved versions that do more than 1d4 healing. If you've got an entire village of level 1 NPC commoners then sure, I'd expect the village healer/elder/witch/shaman to keep a basket of these lying around, but I doubt most PC's would bother with either the expense or the bulk.


If I was going to use something like this in a game, I'd probably alter it so that the poultice did something like restore 1 HP per hour worn, and it's useful for a given amount of time (like 10 or 12 hours). If it started to be a problem, I'd think up overdose rules.

[Yitzi]

It costs as much as a charge from a wand of CLW, is a bit less than half as effective, has a limited shelf life, has a limit on use, and is slow to work. Probably not worth it when wands of CLW are at all available.

[Debihuman]

Natural Healing

With a full night’s rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night.

If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points.

I wanted something to augment that without it being magical in nature. A poultice takes 24 hours to work, but you don't have to rest while you wait for it as you have to do with natural healing. You slap on a poultice and in 24 hours you heal 1d4 points whether or not you rest. It's more like delayed healing while you wait for the medicine to work. You still benefit from natural healing of course and from magical healing too if you have access. It's very much a niche item, but I think it does the job properly.

An item which cures 1 hp/hour would be far more expensive and should have a cap or you're in danger of it becoming better than potion of curing light wounds unless it is more expensive and is that really worth it?

Of course, you can always have magical poultices that have a variety of effects. Those probably require some sort of spellcraft check. The specifics depend on which spells are mimicked. Again, there needs to be some balance to this.

Debby

[Debihuman]

I had wondered if making the cost 10 gp instead of 15 gp was too cheap. what do people think?

Debby

P.S.. Sorry for the double post but when I tried to edit my previous post, I got a white screen. This is happening far too often I've previously brought this up on the appropriate forum.

[Zale]

I honestly don't think people will bother no matter how cheap you make it.

A day for 1d4 hp is far, far to long, when you have alternatives.

[Amechra]

You could have it increase rates of natural healing.

The thing about poultices is that they are, well, not that easy to represent in d&d.

They don't actually heal anything, they just keep wounds sterile. And since d&d doesn't have rules for wounds getting infected...

[ForzaFiori]

What if poultices allowed you to heal naturally without rest, and if you do decide to rest, double the HP you heal from it. This keeps them useful at all levels, and still requires time to take place (you heal naturally every day, so it would keep the 24 hr period).

Something like:
Once applied, a poultice doubles any natural healing that occurs during the next 24 hours, or until it is removed. If no natural healing occurs (and the poultice remains applied) for 24 hours, the creature may heal hit points as if it had obtained a full nights sleep (1/hd, I believe).

That way, if you wear it and push yourself, you get 1hp/hd. Sleep normally with one, 2hp/hd. Spend all day resting with one, 4hp/hd. Makes resting that much quicker and they'll become incredibly useful if time is of the essence.

[Grūmble]

I love the idea. Unfortunately magic is the cure-all for every purpose. In a lower magic or no magic setting the use of poultices and herbs and things that aren't all hand-wavey is the way to go. I think the d20 Iron Kingdoms setting limited magic, raising the level requirement of healing spells and removing resurrection altogether.

Either way your idea of a poultice is great and full of fluffy goodness.

[Steamflogger]

Nah, Iron kingdoms added a limit to the amount of healing a caster could safely deal before it got all crazy and dangerous, and resurrections were unreliable, dangerous, and expensive (and actually involved dealing with the deity granting the resurrection). They did have a bunch of poultices and curatives though, let me see if I can find my copy...

Yeah, they healed a small amount, then a larger amount one minute later, like a poison. Sometimes they had side effects (usually ability damage) that you would have to save against with the secondary healing. They did a bunch of stuff with the healing, like healing non-lethal, converting lethal to non-lethal, removing fatigue etc. You might want to have a look at them, assuming you plan on using healing items in a low magic setting.

[Debihuman]

The poultices don't require you to rest at all. You slap it on, go about your business and in 24 hours you gain back 1d4 hit points. Should you choose to rest you can also gain natural healing. Unlike magical healing, poultices require time to work.

Debby

[lunar2]

the point is that 1d4 HP over 24 hours is worthless. a charge from a CLW wand costs less, heals more, and does it immediately. while separating this from magic is great and all, it still has to be balanced against magic, because that is what it is competing against.

forza had the best idea. wearing a poultice raises natural healing by 1 step (1/HD for no rest, 2HD/for normal rest, 4/HD for complete rest). it's simple, effective, and still doesn't look like magic. it even makes sense. clean wounds heal faster than dirty wounds, and a poultice keeps the wounds clean.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I agree with the others, 1d4 after 24 hours is useless. Even if you don't need to rest.

Perhaps change it to:

"Every hour for the next 24 hours you recover a number of hit points equal to the applier's Heal check -15, minimum of 2. However, if you are attacked and receive damage, there is an 80% chance the poultice will be destroyed."

[Debihuman]

This is supposed to be a stop gap healing choice and is not supposed to compete with a cure light spell. It's better than natural healing at low levels and supplements natural healing at higher levels and you can use magical healing with this as well. It's not meant to supersede magical healing. Compared to a potion of cure light, this is weaker but also significantly cheaper. It also has the benefit of working in anti-magic field.

Debby

[Sgt. Cookie]

The issue is, it's not better than natural healing. Even at low levels. The price is too high for low level parties, and at and beyond level 3 natural healing is faster and more reliable. Knock the price way down, to about 2 gp, and change the time to eight hours, then it might be more useful. As is, 1d4 after 24 hours is not worth 10 gp, let alone 15.

[lunar2]

This is supposed to be a stop gap healing choice and is not supposed to compete with a cure light spell. It's better than natural healing at low levels and supplements natural healing at higher levels and you can use magical healing with this as well. It's not meant to supersede magical healing. Compared to a potion of cure light, this is weaker but also significantly cheaper. It also has the benefit of working in anti-magic field.

Debby

firsst off, this is more in line with a scroll than a potion, since it requires a skill check to use. second, nobody in their right mind will pay 15 GP now for 2.5HP tomorrow when they can pay 12.5 gp for 5.5 HP now.

weaker, delayed effect, and more expensive does not a viable option make. if i'm so desperate for HPs that i would need to use one of these, i'll just leave the dungeon. even at level 1, i'm not wasting my precious gold on a sub-par option like this when better options exist.

you either have to make the item powerful enough that it's actually worth the GP it costs, or you can expect it not to be used. people don't buy stop-gap measures, they buy the good stuff. make this cost about 1 gp, remove the skill check to use, and allow them to stack and this might actually see use.

[Yitzi]

firsst off, this is more in line with a scroll than a potion, since it requires a skill check to use. second, nobody in their right mind will pay 15 GP now for 2.5HP tomorrow when they can pay 12.5 gp for 5.5 HP now.

12.5 gp assumes a cleric with Scribe Scroll and the time and XP to burn on it. Otherwise it's 25 (or 15 from a wand).

[locutus]

I would tend to adjust the price WAY down. Adventurers in dungeons have access to the good stuff, and probably won't use herbal medicine, or ANY form of mundane medicine, because they can afford magic.

But anyone with a little skill can make a herbalism check, or go see the village healer. This is the medicine of choice for the unleveled commoners. They can't spend a years wage on healing. I'd make the price 1sp, or a days pay. You got injured on the job, it didn't kill you, so put this on and call me in the morning.

For anything other than a straight gash, I'd say it needs an herbalism roll to apply correctly/choose the correct herbs.

but yeah, if you're the village healer, and a bunch of adventurers roll into town, they suddenly cost 15gp or whatever. Fleece 'em.

[TuggyNE]

I would tend to adjust the price WAY down. Adventurers in dungeons have access to the good stuff, and probably won't use herbal medicine, or ANY form of mundane medicine, because they can afford magic.

But anyone with a little skill can make a herbalism check, or go see the village healer. This is the medicine of choice for the unleveled commoners. They can't spend a years wage on healing. I'd make the price 1sp, or a days pay. You got injured on the job, it didn't kill you, so put this on and call me in the morning.

For anything other than a straight gash, I'd say it needs an herbalism roll to apply correctly/choose the correct herbs.

but yeah, if you're the village healer, and a bunch of adventurers roll into town, they suddenly cost 15gp or whatever. Fleece 'em.

I fully second this post. (Relevant OOTS.)

[Ashtagon]

Since we are discussing poultices anyway, I think there is an implication that it's for a low magic setting in which magic marts don't generally exist.

I'd cheerfully go for the "add one step to your natural healing rate" way of resolving the effects. This will of course stack with the "long term care" aspect of the Heal skill.

Most commoners will just get the "long term care" from a healer. Rich folk will get the poultice for the five-star treatment in addition to long term care. Very rich folk will get potions of CLW.

I'd also allow anyone with the Heal skill to craft these. A character with the Survival skill in an appropriate environment could probably gather the raw materials (herbs and the like) to avoid even the gp cost of making these.

Call it DC 15 (high quality item) for crafting purposes. Assuming the base "retail" price is 6 gp, that's 4 gp worth of crafting keyed off the Heal skill, plus either 2 gp cash or 2 gp worth of crafting keyed off the Survival skill.

[Debihuman]

Since these fall in the zone between minor cure light and cure light spells I've dropped the price to 11 gp. This makes it a lot more affordable at low levels.

At higher levels this is what you can slap on your henchmen and cohorts when they are injured. I'm thinking you could stick on on an injured animal as well rather than using a more costly item on them.

Debby

[Garryl]

Given the time period, Lesser Vigor would be a more apt comparison (although still several orders of magnitude away). For 15g for 1 charge from a wand, you heal 11 hp over a little over a minute.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I don't mean any offense Debby, but this needs to be said.

These are poor. Very, very poor. They are completely useless. No one in their right mind would bother with these. It seems that you are overestimating the value of 1d4 hit points. Even at low levels, 1d4 after 24 hours is utterly useless.

11 GP is far too expensive. If the idea was for starting characters to buy these, then you should really look up average starting gold. Because buying just ONE poultice costs all to one fifteenth of a character's starting gold.

The word I would like to use to describe these would be filtered.

[Deepbluediver]

I've mostly been avoiding the debate over the cost because IMO, the WBL chart is so frelling bjorked beyond all reason that balancing items in terms of gold is nearly impossible. I've always preferred games where characters have access to whatever level of gear is necessary for their current challenge, and where merchants pay reasonable prices for your old cast-off equipment (and don't give you 100,000 gold just because your sword has "+5" on it).

I assumed that these could be manufactured for little (a few silver) or no cost, and would be used, like I said, by NPC's who didn't have access to other forms of healing magic. There needs to be a more powerful version for players if you really want them to be a factor in your campaigns.

So essentially I think the balance question is: what scenario are we utilizing these in? As the other posters have pointed out, any other form of healing is quicker and usually cheaper, so these would only be used in the total absence of any other kind of healing ability.

[lunar2]

12.5 gp assumes a cleric with Scribe Scroll and the time and XP to burn on it. Otherwise it's 25 (or 15 from a wand).

actually, i fudged the math on a wand charge. i should have said 15 gp. i just mentioned scrolls because debby was comparing it to potions, and this is more in line witha scroll because it needs a skill check to use.

Since these fall in the zone between minor cure light and cure light spells I've dropped the price to 11 gp. This makes it a lot more affordable at low levels.

At higher levels this is what you can slap on your henchmen and cohorts when they are injured. I'm thinking you could stick on on an injured animal as well rather than using a more costly item on them.

Debby

again. it doesn't matter what you're planning on using this for, it's not cost effective. the only people who would actually use a healing item this weak are 1st level commoners and experts, because they have fewer HP than an average CLW would heal. and they would only use this item if it is priced for them to use, otherwise, they'll just suffer the wound for 1 more day. 1 GP is the upper limit on a reasonable price for this kind of item, because it will not see use by PCs with any kind of sense at all. we're not even talking about INT 30 wizards, here, we're talking about the average mom smart enough to use coupons and buy store brands at the grocery store.

[Debihuman]

This is why these are relatively easy to make and use. Even a 1st level PC could make one. It costs nothing for the ingredients since the ingredients are common healing plants. To facilitate this, I dropped the DC from 15 to 10 on the Knowledge (Nature) check and dropped the DC on the Craft (Alchemy) to 15. I suppose you could buy these, but it would almost as easy to make. it takes one hour to make one so you could save the cost and just do it yourself.

Debby

[PetterTomBos]

What about making it apply to ability damage? That'll give it a use until lesser restoriation really comes into play.

[Garryl]

According to the Craft rules, it takes 1/3 the market value in materials (4.66g). Regardless, it makes little sense for something so cheap and easy to make to cost so much if the raw materials do indeed cost only 0g instead of 4.66g.

Speaking of which, is there any reason you're using a fixed crafting time instead of the existing Craft skill rules? Other than the fact that at the current price, it would take too damn long to make, that is.

If you wish to expand on this concept, how about a version that heals relatively quickly but doesn't remove the damage, just turns it into nonlethal?

[Razanir]

This is why these are relatively easy to make and use. Even a 1st level PC could make one. It costs nothing for the ingredients since the ingredients are common healing plants. To facilitate this, I dropped the DC from 15 to 10 on the Knowledge (Nature) check and dropped the DC on the Craft (Alchemy) to 15. I suppose you could buy these, but it would almost as easy to make. it takes one hour to make one so you could save the cost and just do it yourself.

Debby

This doesn't really work. Knowledge (any one) is trained only, and Craft (alchemy) can only be used by casters (possibly even only arcane casters, I can't remember)

And I support both the price drop and change in healing. d4 in a day REALLY isn't much. I'd sooner pay the temple cleric to heal me NOW. And with that, if you're trying to open healing up to commoners and level one adventurers, 11 gp is prohibitively expensive. I can get a battleaxe for about the same price. Most commoners don't even make more than a few sp/day if they're lucky. No one's going to spend a third of a year's wage on a single healing item

[lunar2]

This is why these are relatively easy to make and use. Even a 1st level PC could make one. It costs nothing for the ingredients since the ingredients are common healing plants. To facilitate this, I dropped the DC from 15 to 10 on the Knowledge (Nature) check and dropped the DC on the Craft (Alchemy) to 15. I suppose you could buy these, but it would almost as easy to make. it takes one hour to make one so you could save the cost and just do it yourself.

Debby

doesn't change the fact that it's worth 1 GP, max. also, you need to be a spellcaster to use craft: alchemy, and you have to have access to a 500GP alchemist's lab. you are still requiring ranks in 1 underpowered skill to use the poultice, and ranks in 2 others to make it consistently. all three of these skills, btw, are most commonly found on casters. if i have a caster in the party with heal as a class skill, and he starts to craft a poultice, i'll tell him to stop being an idiot and go buy a wand of CLW with all that gold he's got laying around to buy the lab. and if he were to try to apply a poultice, i'd say quit trying (and failing) to cheap out and give me a CLW or lesser vigor.