Was Horace Greenhilt a bad father like Eugene

[about50heavies]

It seems like Harace hates his son and vice versa while doting on Roy simply because he choose to be a fighter.

[Kish]

It seems highly likely, but, based on the little information we have, not really knowable.

[Don Ohnic]

Hate is too strong a word, I think. However, I think it is clear that Horace does not understand Eugene at all, as Eugene likewise do not understand Roy. It is also very sad that neither of the fathers, even in afterlife, has the capacity to grow up to respect their respective sons.

I do feel that Roy is much more mature than both Eugene and Horace, and therefore Roy's children will have a better father.

[Winter]

I think he was an as bad father, just is not an as bad person, so in combination, he was not as bad as father.

But he did not seem to understand his son just as Eugene could not understand Roy. Horace also could not seem to accept that his son simply had different interests and a different outlook on life.

I think some of the things that made Eugene as horrible as he was to Roy is the fact how much he saw in his son of what he despised in his own father.

[about50heavies]

Maybe Roy will dislike his own son for being like eugene

[Turgon9357]

Maybe Roy will dislike his own son for being like eugene

Possibly. As others have noted, we do not know much about the pasts of Eugene or Horace. We do know Roy pretty well, though. Just going off my gut-reaction, Roy doesn't seem like someone who would take out his frustrations on an innocent person (his child with different interests). Just because his dad was not at all supportive doesn't give Roy the right to act the same (in his mind, at least). He would just deal with it and learn to accept it.

[sims796]

It seems highly likely, but, based on the little information we have, not really knowable.

This is most agreeable, however, from Horace's point of view, it seems that he legitimately tried to be a part of his son's life.

Granted, I'm not sure as to what degree Eugene tried to tried to be a part of Roy's life, though from Roy's point of view, it wasn't much.

[Jay R]

I do feel that Roy is much more mature than both Eugene and Horace, and therefore Roy's children will have a better father.

I'm not convinced Roy will survive to have children. Durkon and Belkar definitely die; Elan (and presumably Haley) will survive. The fate of Roy, Vaarsuvius (except for 44 minutes, 16 seconds), Blackwing, and Mr. Scruffy are unknown.

[Squark]

The Impression I got is that Horace at least initially tried to interact with Eugene, but it seems to have all broken down and the two eventually ceased any contact and were on bad terms when Horace died.

Eugene seeing his father in Roy definitely played a role in their relationship, although I don't think Horace was the kind of person who would have made the deal with Roy the way Eugene did (although we really don't know at this point).

[sims796]

And lets not forget Roy's siblings. His brother died, causing Roy to not only resent his father, but to have a weary eye on magic, and his sister followed in daddy's footsteps, giving Eugene a place to focus his love on.

[Morph Bark]

I think this is more of a classic example of grandparents and grandchildren getting along, whereas the middle generation is left out (at least until they have grandchildren of their own).

Though it does surely have its reasons.

[Boogastreehouse]

I think it looks nicer with a couple extra lines above and below

"Always telling me how stupid I was. I'll admit, I ain't one for words when action'll do, but it ain't right for a boy to say that to his old man."- Horace

I get the feeling that any strain in their relationship was largely Eugene's fault.

I think it looks nicer with a couple extra lines above and below

[Bogardan_Mage]

I'm not convinced Roy will survive to have children. Durkon and Belkar definitely die; Elan (and presumably Haley) will survive. The fate of Roy, Vaarsuvius (except for 44 minutes, 16 seconds), Blackwing, and Mr. Scruffy are unknown.

Roy's died before and he got better. Very few, if any people have an incentive to raise Belkar, and Durkon's prophesy obviously needs to be resolved somehow, but that doesn't mean death isn't cheap.

[Gitman00]

I think it looks nicer with a couple extra lines above and below

"Always telling me how stupid I was. I'll admit, I ain't one for words when action'll do, but it ain't right for a boy to say that to his old man."- Horace

I get the feeling that any strain in their relationship was largely Eugene's fault.

I think it looks nicer with a couple extra lines above and below

I agree with this. Horace seems to have had a hard time relating to his son's more intellectual bent, but consider: Horace didn't get along with Eugene; Eugene didn't get along with Roy. The common denominator is Eugene. Couple that with the fact that every time he's onscreen Eugene is an abrasive jerk, and I'm thinking that he carries more of the blame for the poor relationship than Horace does.

[Ron Miel]

I think that Roy will try to push his own son into being a warrior and carrying the family sword. But when young Horace chooses to be a bard instead, Roy won't be able to understand or respect the choice.

[Morquard]

Horace tried to force Eugene to go fishing, but Eugene didn't like it, so Horace said the boy didn't even try. It's now interpreted as "At least he showed interest in getting along with his son".

Eugene tried to get Roy interested in magic, but Roy didn't like it, so Eugene said the boy didn't even try. It's now interpreted as "Eugene didn't give Roy his space and wants to force his views on him".

Horace later resented his son for choosing a different path than himself and becoming a wizard.
Eugene later resented his son for choosing a different path than himself and becoming a fighter.

In the end neither of them could get along with their sons, largely due to father and son being very different.
Roy and Horace are very similar in some ways, so they get along fine. Since they're so similar they both don't get along well with Eugene. Blaming solely Eugene for that ("the common denominator") a bit unfair I think.

Also we largely get Horace's view on the matter. His son being uncooperative about an issue Horace and Roy both like - so of course they agree that it was stupid of Eugene to not like it too.

Is Eugene a crappy father? Yes, absolutely.
Was Horace any better? I don't know, but he definitely made mistakes too.

Was Eugene a bad son? Probably.
Is Roy a bad son? Probably.

[rewinn]

....
Is Roy a bad son? Probably.

There's no evidence of that.

Roy's got his flaws but what has he ever done to hurt his father except for frequent snarkiness?

Actually, Roy's snarkiness is a tribute to his father so Roy's a pretty good son.

[PebbleInTheSky]

From the interactions between Roy, Horace, and Eugene, I get the feeling Horace is one of those people who makes a wonderful distant grandparent, but not so great a parent. Hopefully, Roy will be different.

[B. Dandelion]

It's a really interesting question, in my view. I'm not a fan of Eugene at all, so I don't have any trouble entertaining a notion that basically Eugene was just a jerk to all parties. But I do wonder. One that kinda jumped out at me was 497, and Horace's "I'm still surprised he liked girls."

I don't want to be all hyper-judgmental of this at all, but if you wanted to see signs of where stress might be applied on Horace's end, imagine that he looked cross-eyed at Eugene's pursuit of magic because he saw it as unmanly and perhaps outright homosexual, and see where your sympathy tends to go.

[Morquard]

There's no evidence of that.

No there isn't really, and that's my point.

The only "evidence" we have for Eugene being a bad son is Horace's testimony, who seems kinda biased in the opinion that he himself was a great dad, and so it must have been all Eugene's fault.
Roy, who doesn't get along with Eugene either, is just more than willing to buy into that theory right away without second guessing it at all.

But as I mentioned before the one line you quoted from my post, I pointed out why I don't think Horace was a great dad at all.

We have no actual proof that Eugene was any more rebellious towards his own dad than any other teenager is.

At the same time "evidence" that Roy was a bad son coming from Eugene is automatically dismissed as being biased and because Eugene is kind of a jerk, so once again it must have all been Eugene's fault.

[Kish]

At the same time "evidence" that Roy was a bad son coming from Eugene is automatically dismissed as being biased and because Eugene is kind of a jerk, so once again it must have all been Eugene's fault.

The evidence is not "automatically dismissed." The evidence is nonexistent*. You're complaining because we're not manufacturing evidence, in defiance of the actual comic, that shows Roy as being to blame for his bad relationship with Eugene.

*And no, "Eugene thinks it was horrible of Roy to be a fighter" is not somehow evidence of Roy doing something bad.

[Morty]

It's a really interesting question, in my view. I'm not a fan of Eugene at all, so I don't have any trouble entertaining a notion that basically Eugene was just a jerk to all parties. But I do wonder. One that kinda jumped out at me was 497, and Horace's "I'm still surprised he liked girls."

I don't want to be all hyper-judgmental of this at all, but if you wanted to see signs of where stress might be applied on Horace's end, imagine that he looked cross-eyed at Eugene's pursuit of magic because he saw it as unmanly and perhaps outright homosexual, and see where your sympathy tends to go.

I agree. That line also made me wonder if Horace might have done a bad job at being a father to Eugene. It's just the sort of thing a father who has a bookish son he doesn't bother to try to understand would say.
It doesn't excuse Eugene's treatment of Roy, of course. If anything, Eugene should have known what it's like to have a father who disapproves of everything you do.

[snikrept]

I've forgotten, was there ever any mention of Eugene having siblings? Was he an only child?

[ti'esar]

I'm not convinced Roy will survive to have children. Durkon and Belkar definitely die; Elan (and presumably Haley) will survive. The fate of Roy, Vaarsuvius (except for 44 minutes, 16 seconds), Blackwing, and Mr. Scruffy are unknown.

I suspect Roy will survive to have children in part because of this issue. That is, given the hints of the cyclical nature of Greenhilt father/son dysfunction (at least in recent years), I think it would be a fitting conclusion* to see Roy being totally cool with a non-fighter son.

*Assuming any kind of "where are they now?" epilogue appears, at least, which won't necessarily be the case.

[Cizak]

I'm not convinced Roy will survive to have children. Durkon and Belkar definitely die; Elan (and presumably Haley) will survive. The fate of Roy, Vaarsuvius (except for 44 minutes, 16 seconds), Blackwing, and Mr. Scruffy are unknown.

I'm guessing you're basing your guess about Elan surviving on his prophesy about a happy ending, but I don't think we can be so sure. I do actually think the chances of him surviving are pretty high, but if he died happy after the Order wins then I think that could be considered a "happy ending" for him.

[Michaeler]

My experience is that in many cases, the mistakes your parents make are from trying too hard not to make the mistakes their parents made.

[Kish]

I'm guessing you're basing your guess about Elan surviving on his prophesy about a happy ending, but I don't think we can be so sure. I do actually think the chances of him surviving are pretty high, but if he died happy after the Order wins then I think that could be considered a "happy ending" for him.

Elan is the least likely of all the Order to interpret "happy ending" as meaning, "you will be happy even though you're dying" rather than "classically happy ending."

[Jay R]

I'm guessing you're basing your guess about Elan surviving on his prophesy about a happy ending, but I don't think we can be so sure. I do actually think the chances of him surviving are pretty high, but if he died happy after the Order wins then I think that could be considered a "happy ending" for him.

Elan? Seriously? That would be a satisfying ending, but still a tragic one.

The people with the happy ending, in nearly every major tale, are the ones kissing at the end. That's why I assume that Elan and Haley will survive.

(Besides, for Elan to have a happy ending, he'd need to find a whistle.)

[Morquard]

The evidence is not "automatically dismissed." The evidence is nonexistent*. You're complaining because we're not manufacturing evidence, in defiance of the actual comic, that shows Roy as being to blame for his bad relationship with Eugene.

*And no, "Eugene thinks it was horrible of Roy to be a fighter" is not somehow evidence of Roy doing something bad.

Ok, either I'm really bad at saying what I want to say or you're deliberately ignoring the point of my post.

You COULD say that Roy's choice to become a fighter was at least partly inspired by Horace and how Eugene hated him, and therefor a way to stick it to him. Could, mind you. Apparently the career choice worked out fine so far, with a little detour to the celestial realm, but still, so it was the right choice.

The same is the case for Eugene though. He is a different person than Horace. More intellectual and more book-learned etc, and being a wizard worked out great for him too. In fact I believe that his choice to become a wizard was less "lets stick it to my dad" inspired than Roy's was - though I have no proof of that.

In some regards Roy is more like Eugene maybe than he wants to admit. Higher than average Int, at fighter college he was hazed for actually reading books etc, cross-class skills in knowledge stuff and possibly Spellcraft.

No, in both cases the normal teenage "rebellious phase" probably played a huge role too, which you can't really fault them for.

My point:
Eugene = bad father? Most absolutely and certainly.
Eugene = bad son? I really don't see it.
Because if you do, you also have to start applying the same standards to Roy and then (and only then) will Roy seem to be just as bad a son.

Or in other words:
Yes Horace was a bad father. Great Grandfather - towards Roy at least, we don't know how he'll connect to Julia eventually. But father? Not so awesome.

[Ron Miel]

My experience is that in many cases, the mistakes your parents make are from trying too hard not to make the mistakes their parents made.

This Be the Verse
By Philip Larkin

They [mess] you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were [mess]ed up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.