How to Fix True Necromancer

[drax75]

It was suggested i start a new thread for this.

True Necromancer from Libras Mortis:
http://dndtools.eu/classes/true-necromancer/

How would you fix this Class?

I suggested Giving it full spell progression, as a PRC that takes 2 classes to get, i dont see it being to strong with full progression.

Also what are peoples thoughts on un-capping Rebuke undead. In other words you can now Rebuke any undead creature in regards to hitdice you still cannot rebuke undead who have immunity from it. This lets you truly benefit from Rebuke and makes its (at least in my opinion) a worth while class feature.

What are other peoples thoughts? Would this be to powerful? If so how would you balance it?

[Ellrin]

If you really want to balance it against other theurge classes, the first thing you need to do is get rid of the prereqs that prevent early entry (the specific spell requirements, for instance). Whether you personally allow early entry is another thing entirely, but for a general fix to make True Necro worthwhile compared to Arcane Hierophant or even Mystic Theurge, the ability to enter early is vital.

Full dual casting is obviously the next major step.

Instead of removing the HD cap for rebuke undead, perhaps you could give the class the ability to both turn and rebuke undead (decided at each individual attempt). It doesn't substantially alter the abilities of the class, but it gives you some more flexible options, and you've still got DMM; and by flavor, you'd think the ability to do both would make sense for a "master" necromancer.

Maybe get rid of the SLAs, as they're largely useless when you're already casting from two necromancy-focused spell lists, and replace them with an undead familiar (a skeleton or (hah, no) zombie template applied to the standard sor/wiz familiar lists, or, if you're feeling really kind, a bone creature or corpse creature template (BoVD, I think?)) that stacks with levels of classes that already grant a familiar. If you go with the skeleton/zombie templates, I recommend that the familiar intelligence score override the lack of an Int score that the templates usually impose; though I'd heavily recommend bone/corpse creature templates instead.

I think that's probably enough to get it on par with the Arcane Hierophant as an individual class, though focused necromancers (regardless of whether they've specialized or not) just aren't going to be as handy in general as, say, druid/wizards. Beyond that, well, it's still got all the problems of being a theurge, but at least it's not the worst one out there any more.

[The Viscount]

Could you explain what you mean by being able to rebuke any undead in regards to HD?

Full casting progression must be used with extreme caution. If True Necromancer were full casting, then a character would get 9th level arcane and divine spells.

True Necromancer has very lackluster class features because all theurges do. It's a balancing factor. The SLAs are 1/day and stink of 3.0 style PrC. The cl boost sounds great until you realize even with it your cl is below that of a straight divine or straight arcane caster. The zone of desecration is the only real ability they have, and that's +1 on attack and damage for surrounding undead. I believe it's technically possible to enter it single-classed, but there is little point in doing so

[Ellrin]

Full casting progression must be used with extreme caution. If True Necromancer were full casting, then a character would get 9th level arcane and divine spells.

You mean like a druid3/wizard3/MT4/AH10? Or a bard1/druid4/GW4/AH1/SC1/AH9? It just simplifies the process a bit, while keeping the focus narrow. A theurge without early entry and with dual 9s is still less powerful in any given combat than a druid, cleric, archivist, or wizard 20, and they're constantly three levels behind in when they get their next spell level. I like theurges, personally, but you're never going to break a game with one in a way you couldn't break it worse with a straight Tier 1, especially with MAD.

[drax75]

As for the Rebuke i was speaking of.

Normally Rebuke Undead can only be used on creatures that are at your Hit Dice or below.

I purposed you remove that cap. So assuming you roll well enough their is no Limit.

As for the duel spell casting, Its a PRC and you can realistically do a lot worse things with other classes.

So my Fixes are that it can get up to 9th level spells in both spell casting Classes, and Is no longer limited by its own hit dice on a rebuke/turn attempt.

Might be a little to strong but not likely much worse then any other T1 Class.

Just my musings, and i wanted to see what people thought. I wanted to know if removing the class's restrictions would maybe make it to powerful or make it T1.

again, thoughts?

[The Viscount]

As for the Rebuke i was speaking of.

Normally Rebuke Undead can only be used on creatures that are at your Hit Dice or below.

I purposed you remove that cap. So assuming you roll well enough their is no Limit.

That's not a limit. The srd tells us you can potentially rebuke an undead of your cleric level +4. If you have twice as many levels as the undead has HD, you can bring it under your control. Do you mean to change the first restriction or the second?

[drax75]

That's not a limit. The srd tells us you can potentially rebuke an undead of your cleric level +4. If you have twice as many levels as the undead has HD, you can bring it under your control. Do you mean to change the first restriction or the second?

Okay i must have interpreted the rules incorrectly thank you for clarifying.

So then the only thing i would do is make it a Theurge. Which would i think balance it out nicely.

I have some other idea's of ways to break the class, but most people dont think creatively enough to see it. My main issue was the spell casting aspect and me incorrectly reviewing the turn/rebuke rules. If i fixed the spell casting i could make this one of the Most OP classes around... Sort of.

The next question/effort would be getting my DM to allow the casting change. Anyone have idea's of how to pose it to him?

[Ellrin]

I'm pretty sure there's plenty of material out there on how RAW True Necromancer is one of the worst prestige classes you can take, so maybe show him some of that?

[Karnith]

If you have to prove to him that True Necromancer is a bad prestige class, K's Revised Necromancer Handbook would probably be a good place to start, as it has a nice list of reasons why the True Necromancer isn't very good:

You are not going to play a True Necromancer!
A lot of people love the True Necromancer, even though it’s a completely crippled class. Even a Mystic Theurge is better, and that’s saying quite a bit because that class is a dog with fleas. You’re 5 real caster levels behind the curve. If you just took Leadership, and then your cohort took Leadership, both of the cohorts would have better casting than you (being 2 levels behind and 4 levels behind respectively). You can provide the party better and more powerful Necromancy as a single classed Fighter that happens to have Leadership than you would if you were a “True” Necromancer.

Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad

1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter.
2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy.
3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels.
4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous.
5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell.
6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care.
7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot.
8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric.
9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."?
10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.

As to proposed fixes, given the entry restrictions and the limited benefits of the class, giving it mystic theurge casting progression ought to be fine. It still won't be that great, but it will at least have some upsides for sacrificing spellcasting ability.

[drax75]

I'm pretty sure there's plenty of material out there on how RAW True Necromancer is one of the worst prestige classes you can take, so maybe show him some of that?

Hmmm might be a good idea to get him to let me play it.

Can i purpose a situation to see how you as a DM (or anyone reading this) would react if i rebuked a Wight, and had it raise say a small village as Wights?

The starting Wight is equal+4 to my HD. Keep in mind all the Wight's he just raised are under his Control, but he is under my control. So i could conceivably tell him to tell them what to do. Then lets say this small army of Wights goes to another small town and kills them....... Its basically a Pyramid Scheme with me at the top.

Thoughts? Now also keep in mind If i am playing a true necro i will take undead buffing feats and undead crafting feats etc.

Thoughts?

[Ellrin]

You're still misreading rebuke/control undead, I think.

When you spend a rebuke attempt, you only control undead that you successfully rebuke and that are half your HD or lower.

[Karnith]

Well, for one, you'd be better off as a regular cleric (or a dread necromancer) if you're bringing about a wightpocalypse in this manner, so there's that. Additionally, you need to be at least a mid-level cleric to control a wight (wights have 4 HD, so you'd need to have at least cleric level 8), so their combat effectiveness against a lot of things will be limited, and if your control wight gets killed, you'll have a horde of hostile wights on your hands.

On the other hand, having tons of weak minions is a pain to actually play, and as a DM I'd be pretty ticked if I had a player keeping a small army around, because it slows everything down so much. Additionally, in most low- to mid-op games, I wouldn't allow a PC to circumvent the rebuke/control undead HD limit like that.

[drax75]

You're still misreading rebuke/control undead, I think.

When you spend a rebuke attempt, you only control undead that you successfully rebuke and that are half your HD or lower.

Ok then that would be the part of rebuke i would re-write to make rebuke worth taking. (or at least for the class have the rule changed)

But i may just be splitting hairs, was just a idea i had. I am starting to think True Necro just isnt worth the effort sadly which is to bad cause i really like the idea of the class.

[Seatbelt]

Play a Dread Necromancer. Same class, but good.

[8wGremlin]

You can be a sha'ir true necromancer

see my post earlier about the Sha'ir true Necormancer of Myrkul

It doesn't fix the True Necromancer, but it can make the current one, pretty good.

[Ellrin]

Ok then that would be the part of rebuke i would re-write to make rebuke worth taking. (or at least for the class have the rule changed)

But i may just be splitting hairs, was just a idea i had. I am starting to think True Necro just isnt worth the effort sadly which is to bad cause i really like the idea of the class.

That's not just changing the class, that's changing an entire facet of the game to make clerics (and anything else that can rebuke undead) much more powerful.

As it stands, I think my earlier suggestions would give a True Necro a fighting chance against other theurge classes; the real issue is that theurge PrCs aren't very good compared to the base classes you have to take to enter them.

[Arcanist]

You can be a sha'ir true necromancer

see my post earlier about the Sha'ir true Necormancer of Myrkul

It doesn't fix the True Necromancer, but it can make the current one, pretty good.

I friken love this build... So much... but I must ask why you don't just take Planar Touchstones (Catalogs of Enlightenment) for the Death domain?

Anyway~ To fix the True Necromancer you have to make it 10 full casting levels (effectively a death flavored Mystic Theurge), lighten up the prerequisites (remove the Death domain as a necessity, require it to be able to cast 2 Necromancy spells of Divine and Arcane, lower the skill ranks to 6 and your golden), Make your rebuking based on your HD instead, and remove the SLA. There was one more thing that you'd have to adjust, but I just can't remember what I was going to say here

[8wGremlin]

I friken love this build... So much... but I must ask why you don't just take Planar Touchstones (Catalogs of Enlightenment) for the Death domain?

Rebuke Undead, can't get it any other way as low a level.
Yes you do lose a caster level, but honestly in that build it doesn't matter.

[Arcanist]

Rebuke Undead, can't get it any other way as low a level.
Yes you do lose a caster level, but honestly in that build it doesn't matter.

Ah, not familiar with Horned Harbinger

[Alienist]

As to proposed fixes, given the entry restrictions and the limited benefits of the class, giving it mystic theurge casting progression ought to be fine. It still won't be that great, but it will at least have some upsides for sacrificing spellcasting ability.

Proving that leadership is broken is not difficult, nor does it prove that anything else is bad because it isn't as good as leadership.

At 20th level you get dual 8ths and a bunch of ninths tossed in too! How terrible! Might as well be playing a fighter for all the good that'll do you. ::rollseyes::

[Karnith]

Proving that leadership is broken is not difficult, nor does it prove that anything else is bad because it isn't as good as leadership.

At 20th level you get dual 8ths and a bunch of ninths tossed in too! How terrible! Might as well be playing a fighter for all the good that'll do you. ::rollseyes::

As I stated in the other thread when you brought this up, the problem is not that a True Necromancer character is weak; he (eventually) gets nigh-on full casting. The problem is that taking levels in the class makes you much, much worse at being a necromancer; theurging is worse than regular, single-classed spellcasting (without early entry tricks), and True Necromancer is even bad at theurging. When taking levels in a prestige class makes you actively worse at what you're trying to do, then it's bad.

[Arcanist]

Theurging is worse than regular, single-classed spellcasting (without early entry tricks).

Divine Magician 3 / Necromancer 3 / True Necromancer 14 with Theurgic Specialist makes Necromancy a viable option for Theurgist. You are better at Necromancy then most casters to say the least (CL 24 to be precise).

With early entry tricks I can do MUCH more, even getting 9th level spells. If high levels of optimization are allowed then the True Necromancer can be a force to be reckoned with

[Karnith]

Divine Magician 3 / Necromancer 3 / True Necromancer 14 with Theurgic Specialist makes Necromancy a viable option for Theurgist. You are better at Necromancy then most casters to say the least (CL 24 to be precise).

With early entry tricks I can do MUCH more, even getting 9th level spells. If high levels of optimization are allowed then the True Necromancer can be a force to be reckoned with

Well, that's fair, although that particular trick works about as well on a mystic theurge than a true necromancer until level 15 or so (True Necromancer level 9, when your necromantic prowess ability exceeds the loss in caster levels from class levels, and although practiced spellcaster on both sides makes it better, it costs a lot of feats), and you suffer from not having access to higher-level spells.

Perhaps I should have said that "at most levels of optimization, theurging is worse than regular, single-classed spellcasting."

Also, between the Sha'ir build and that build, I am feeling the urge to play a True Necromancer again. It's never worked out well before, but I've got a good feeling about it this time.

[Arcanist]

Well, that's fair, although that particular trick works about as well on a mystic theurge than a true necromancer until level 15 or so (True Necromancer level 9, when your necromantic prowess ability exceeds the loss in caster levels from class levels, and although practiced spellcaster on both sides makes it better, it costs a lot of feats), and you suffer from not having access to higher-level spells.

Clearly Mystic Theurge would be better at Divine Theurgy then the True Necromancer since, as it is, the True Necromancer is inherently borked as a class. As a Straight True Necromancer you are at max, getting 8th level spells

Theurgy is 3.5's polite way of saying "Optimize, it's okay!"

Perhaps I should have said that "at most levels of optimization, theurging is worse than regular, single-classed spellcasting."

Perhaps you should have! It's all good man; I for one actually like Theurges because it allows me to have a massive toolbox that I can customize to my situation. Especially with the Ur-udite where my Toolbox is so massive that it becomes difficult to decide upon an action for solving my situation

Also, between the Sha'ir build and that build, I am feeling the urge to play a True Necromancer again. It's never worked out well before, but I've got a good feeling about it this time.

Don't play a True Necromancer unless you plan to optimize it to bajesus and back

[Karnith]

Also, maybe I'm missing something, but theurgic specialist on a divine magician 3/necromancer 3/true necromancer 14 would actually give you a caster level of 38 for necromancy spells, would it not? 15 on each side just from casting progression, +4 on each side from necromantic prowess (total 19 on each side), combined to produce a caster level of 38.

[Arcanist]

Also, maybe I'm missing something, but theurgic specialist on a divine magician 3/necromancer 3/true necromancer 14 would actually give you a caster level of 38 for necromancy spells, would it not? 15 on each side just from casting progression, +4 on each side from necromantic prowess (total 19 on each side), combined to produce a caster level of 38.

I rushed on the math

[The Viscount]

Also, maybe I'm missing something, but theurgic specialist on a divine magician 3/necromancer 3/true necromancer 14 would actually give you a caster level of 38 for necromancy spells, would it not? 15 on each side just from casting progression, +4 on each side from necromantic prowess (total 19 on each side), combined to produce a caster level of 38.

I do not believe you are allowed to sum caster levels in that manner. I think the character simply has a 19 arcane cl and and a 19 divine cl. Unless you can cast a spell as both arcane and divine, you cannot use the two. If there is a rule I'm missing, please let me know.

OP, I don't blame you by being confused by rebuking. It's very involved. K's Necromancer Handbook also has a list of rebuke-able minions and what effective cleric levels you can get them at. I second the recommendation for Dread Necromancer. It has similar fluff to True Necromancer, and it can indeed necromance better. With enough effort, you can even control more undead than a horned harbinger.

[Karnith]

I do not believe you are allowed to sum caster levels in that manner. I think the character simply has a 19 arcane cl and and a 19 divine cl. Unless you can cast a spell as both arcane and divine, you cannot use the two. If there is a rule I'm missing, please let me know.

They stack because of theurgic specialist, from Dragon 325, a feat that I was unaware of until Arcanist brought it up (unfortunately, I didn't start buying issues of Dragon until well after that came out). It's a lot like the master spellthief/ultimate magus trick, though more limited in that it only applies to spells from a single school.

THEURGIC SPECIALIST [GENERAL]
Spells from your specialist school benefit from your knowledge of other spellcasting classes.
Prerequisites: Specialist wizard level 3rd, any other spellcasting class level 1st.
Benefit: When casting a spell from your specialist school (off the spell list of any spellcasting class you have), you can add together the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes to determine your caster level. For example, a 3rd-level druid/1st-level sorcerer/3rd-level diviner could cast any spell from the divination school as a 7th-level caster (even when casting a druid or sorcerer spell).
This does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It only increases your caster level when casting spells of the appropriate school.

[drax75]

With those changes and a slight change to Rebuke to go off of hit die we may be on to something.

So fix rebuke, grab that feat, and give true necromancer full theurge casting ie +1 arcane/divine each level.