[3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

[Byzantine]

"Soulless" is an inherited template that may be applied to any corporeal animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid or vermin with a dual-nature/soul (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A soulless creature uses all the base creatures statistics and abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: Type becomes aberration. All subtypes are retained. Size is unchanged. Do not recalculate the creatures Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves or skill points.

Special Qualities: A soulless creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following.

• Emotionless (Ex): A soulless creature is immune to any spell or effect that attempts to influence their emotional state, as they have none. They also gain a +4 bonus against spells such as Suggestion and Dominiate.
• Soulless (Ex): A soulless creature has no soul, and thus is not dual-natured. They cannot be resurrected by anything short of a Limited Wish, Wish, or Miracle spell, they are immune to spells such as Trap the Soul and Speak with Dead, and they can only be raised as mindless undead.

Abilities: +4 Con, -2 Wis, -4 Cha

Skills: -2 to Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive. +6 to Intimidate.

Environment: As base creature.

Challenge rating: As base creature.

Aligntment: Usually any Neutral.

Level Adjustment: As base creature +1

[SamBurke]

I don't see why this would up the CR at all. There are a number of penalties (cumulative -2 on abilities, -1 on skills), which offset what few advantages they get.

Cool idea, just needs to be adjusted CRwise.

[Byzantine]

I don't see why this would up the CR at all. There are a number of penalties (cumulative -2 on abilities, -1 on skills), which offset what few advantages they get.

Cool idea, just needs to be adjusted CRwise.

Exactly why I posted it. It's an old template I made a while back. Since it's been 'completed', so to speak, I wanted to see what others had to say. The CR and LA were both taken from suggestions and experience with other templates. Considering what it does, I personally can imagine dropping it to +1, though removing it entirely is also definitely an option.

[JoshuaZ]

I agree with making it just +1. +0 templates are inherently dangerous and abuseable, and this does provide some benefits, but it clearly isn't worth +2. Even at +1 it is stretching it.

[Byzantine]

For LA, you mean?

[JoshuaZ]

For LA, you mean?

Yes. Sorry that wasn't clear.

[Byzantine]

Yes. Sorry that wasn't clear.

It's alright, just wondering before I changed the CR again. I'm actually a bit surprised to lower it, myself. Since many players classify LA as 'for PCs', I had to take into account the benefits that one gets from the template.

Aberration type means that any Soulless character now is completely immune to Hold Person. Charm Person is already immune from it, but it is superseded by the Emotionless trait. They are also rendered immune to Dominate Person.

Emotionless, while some of it's effects overlap with the Aberration type, makes the character notoriously hard to control, which can be a serious advantage in some settings. Immunity to fear and charm, resistance to domination... Heck, it's even harder to use Suggestion on them.

Soulless is their main drawback in more gritty, death-laden games. Early on, if the player isn't careful, they will basically be forced roll up a new character.

Ability penalties are in stats that are commonly dumped, while a +4 con is 2hp a level. Which, admittedly, offsets how hard it is to raise them. And the skills are.... well, I have nothing to say about the skills affect on the power level.

All that said, I'll drop it to +1, but I'm interested in hearing what others have to say about the LA.

[Network]

Skills: -2 to Bluff and Diplomacy. +3 to Intimidate.

I'm not sure how someone's lack of emotion can actually make him a worse liar. If he don't feel any emotion, he should instead have basically an infinitely high bonus. Although then, this make the template very powerful. Still, a +2 bonus would be better than nothing.

Talking about it, the bonus to intimidate may be reduced from +3 to +2, because +3 is an odd number.

[Byzantine]

I'm not sure how someone's lack of emotion can actually make him a worse liar. If he don't feel any emotion, he should instead have basically an infinitely high bonus. Although then, this make the template very powerful. Still, a +2 bonus would be better than nothing.

Talking about it, the bonus to intimidate may be reduced from +3 to +2, because +3 is an odd number.

Most skill bonuses are +1, +2, +3 or +5 from what I've seen.

As for the Bluff penalty, I believe my original reasoning was because they lack emotions, they also normally lack the urge to lie in the first place. There's no reason to lie if you don't fear the repercussions of the truth.

At least, I think that was the reasoning behind it.

[Network]

As for the Bluff penalty, I believe my original reasoning was because they lack emotions, they also normally lack the urge to lie in the first place. There's no reason to lie if you don't fear the repercussions of the truth.

At least, I think that was the reasoning behind it.

Well, I don't know what to say about it, but if they get punished when they tell the truth, wouldn't they tend to lie almost whenever they can?

For the intimidate thing, I didn't realize that a +2 bonus to intimidate would mean a total modifier of +0 due to the penalty to charisma. And if they are intended to be good at this, maybe they could even have +4.

[Afool]

Another way to put it could be that, because they lack emotions, they also lack the capacity (or have a decreased capacity) to understand emotions, which would make putting up an effective lie harder. Following that, a penalty to Sense Motive might be in theme for the same reason, but adding too many penalties with the LA might be overloading the ship.

[Kazyan]

Because of the +4 Con and abberation type (qualifies for rapidstrike), this template just so happens to be a nice choice for Totemists.

[Byzantine]

Well, I don't know what to say about it, but if they get punished when they tell the truth, wouldn't they tend to lie almost whenever they can?

For the intimidate thing, I didn't realize that a +2 bonus to intimidate would mean a total modifier of +0 due to the penalty to charisma. And if they are intended to be good at this, maybe they could even have +4.

Another way to put it could be that, because they lack emotions, they also lack the capacity (or have a decreased capacity) to understand emotions, which would make putting up an effective lie harder. Following that, a penalty to Sense Motive might be in theme for the same reason, but adding too many penalties with the LA might be overloading the ship.

Both good points. If I add a Sense Motive negative, I will probably boost the Intimidate. The reason for the skills is as follows, including discussion from one of my homebrewer friends:

• Bluff: After seeing peoples arguments for this, I discussed it with my friend. Ultimately, we decided that the negative fit, if for no other reason than because most of them are rather deadpan and monotone, and over all simply non-social. Mind you, we both see situations that this negative would not exist. The main issue then becomes the fact that this negative is honestly very situational. Mostly, it is balanced into existence due to how logical they would be. I'm still open for discussion about it, but for the moment, I'm keeping it in.
• Intimidate: It's not that they're 'good' at intimidating others, as much as they are unnatural. They have no emotions, and no soul, no aura. People are put off by them, feel uneasy around them (that might bring up problems with Handle Animal checks, but we'll see about that later). I could see upping it, but at the moment I'm not sure about that.
• Diplomacy: Ultimately, the same reasons why Bluff is a penalty.
• Sense Motive: I hadn't considered this originally, but it does make sense. Without emotions, they have no basis of understanding. One might know what happy is, from a theoretical point of view, but they might not be able to grasp what it feels like, and what it would drive people to do.

EDIT

Because of the +4 Con and abberation type (qualifies for rapidstrike), this template just so happens to be a nice choice for Totemists.

Ha, that's funny. Informitive, but funny. Glad to see it's useful?

[Mangles]

I agree with the +1 La being the correct LA, and the CR not changing. The bonuses and penalties are fine for NPC combat, but PC's shouldn't get nice things for free, and some builds would see this as a free buff.

I also agree with the skill bonuses/penalties, although adding in a bigger bonus to intimidate and a negative to sense motive would not go amiss.

[Byzantine]

I agree with the +1 La being the correct LA, and the CR not changing. The bonuses and penalties are fine for NPC combat, but PC's shouldn't get nice things for free, and some builds would see this as a free buff.

I also agree with the skill bonuses/penalties, although adding in a bigger bonus to intimidate and a negative to sense motive would not go amiss.

Good to see that it's getting closer to balanced. Considering the opinions I've seen, I'm definitely considering buffing intimidate more, and handing them a sense motive negative.

As far as certain builds go, I would like to think that not being able to be raised would do something for it. Especially since ideally, they make for decent physical classes (without souls, they are more rooted to this life and all), but have trouble with socializing (since they think more like a machine than a emotive person).

[Byzantine]

Added -2 to Sense Motive and increased the Intimidate bonus to +6. Thoughts on current balancing?

[Afool]

The only problem that I could see coming up is the potential for Intimidate cheese, but that would only be situationally gouda so I don't think it would come up very often if at all (level checks can get weird :P).

I remember someone using Samurai in an optimizer battle to use Intimidate to lock their opponent down and coup-de-gra them, but unless it's just that high optimized of a campaign, I don't think it would get too out of control.

Numbers wise, having a total bonus to skills equal to the minus seems balanced, but you may want to spread the bonus out a bit to help prevent that goudaness ahead of time. (No idea what skill(s) though sorry. Survival might fit for an undistracted focus on their goal (on that same reasoning Concentration would be thematic), but I'm not as familiar with the skills as I should be)

[Byzantine]

The only problem that I could see coming up is the potential for Intimidate cheese, but that would only be situationally gouda so I don't think it would come up very often if at all (level checks can get weird :P).

I remember someone using Samurai in an optimizer battle to use Intimidate to lock their opponent down and coup-de-gra them, but unless it's just that high optimized of a campaign, I don't think it would get too out of control.

Numbers wise, having a total bonus to skills equal to the minus seems balanced, but you may want to spread the bonus out a bit to help prevent that goudaness ahead of time. (No idea what skill(s) though sorry. Survival might fit for an undistracted focus on their goal (on that same reasoning Concentration would be thematic), but I'm not as familiar with the skills as I should be)

Fair enough. Right now, the net bonus for Intimidate is actually +4, since Soulless have a -4 Cha stat. I've been thinking about lowering it to +5 (for a net of +3). As for the penalty skills (with a net of -4), it's a bit of a sailed ship. I can try to spread out the bonus, but I don't want them to be good at too many things skill wise.

Survival could be an option, though I don't think I've ever seen Concentration as a racial skill bonus. Though, I might not need to move things around, since Intimidate cheese is rather hard to come by at most optimization levels I've seen. Though, to be fair, I suppose I'd be honoured to see my template used in someone's optimization build.

[Mangles]

I don't see how this will lead to intimidate cheese. Especially with such a big Cha penalty. I would vote for leaving it as is. This allows them to actually use intimidate as a Cha skill and is probably the only one they will be able too. Unless you grabbed a replace Cha with X ability from somewhere.

[The Bandicoot]

Oh great, now I have the urge to stat up an epic-leveled Souless Flarg.... THANKS BYZANTINE

[Byzantine]

I don't see how this will lead to intimidate cheese. Especially with such a big Cha penalty. I would vote for leaving it as is. This allows them to actually use intimidate as a Cha skill and is probably the only one they will be able too. Unless you grabbed a replace Cha with X ability from somewhere.

Very well, then. I dub this balanced (at least until it's heavily playtested).

Oh great, now I have the urge to stat up an epic-leveled Souless Flarg.... THANKS BYZANTINE

Hehe. I was wondering when you'd show up.

[The Bandicoot]

Very well, then. I dub this balanced (at least until it's heavily playtested).



Hehe. I was wondering when you'd show up.

Sorry it took me so long I've been a bit busy but as soon as I saw your name I just HAD to check it out

[Gotterdammerung]

Seems like a well balanced template. I personally wouldn't take it unless a GM were just giving +1 LA's away, and then I would consider it.

The idea has interesting ramifications, especially in a campaign setting like forgotten realms where the soul itself has extra baggage. It could be a useful way to bypass the negative impact of having no god in faerun. No soul, no problem.

I would like to see a more dynamic impact from the template though. Have you considered the template converting charisma to - instead of -4. Charisma is often related to soul like power so it stands to reason that no soul = no charisma and like undead any skill based on charisma would be relegated to another stat (maybe con- pulling from the physical instead of the soul).

As it stands, there isn't anything to out of the ordinary to draw someone to this template. It is just a stat grab and some cheap immunities.


It also might work better with a ritual mechanic mirroring necropolitan. Maybe you lose your soul in a ritual.

[Marcus Amakar]

(Sent here from the PEACH exchange)

From a balance perspective the CR and LA seem good.

From a fluff standpoint, the large Con bonus seems a bit out of place. I can see a +2 bonus reflecting the fact that they would see pain as just another sensory input, but +4 is quite high.

I'd drop the Con bonus to +2 and then add some addition stuff, maybe:

• +2 Int (Inspired by the film Equilibrium; they're adept and thinking logically and rationally)
• Relentless: A Soulless dies at -(10+1/4 Max Hp) HP (This is to help prevent death given Con bonus has been redueced)
• Something like the Paladin of Tyranny's Aura of Despair?

[Byzantine]

Hm. Possibly. Had to find the Paladin of Tyranny in order to see what you're talking about. I don't know if that would quite fit, but I could see both Relentless and the INT bonus. Would you say both together are overkill?

I had considered CHA - instead, but it has some interesting and ultimately concept breaking ideas, at least for me. A DM allowing it's use can change it, but in my opinion, you don't have to have a soul in order to have a personality of some sort. The -4 is more because they're off-putting to others.