Lost in translation

[Darwin]

One thing that has always nagged me with roleplaying is whenever I want to use premade material, there's a language barrier. Now, for most of us Danes english is second nature, we're all taught english (and most of us german!) in public school so reading and writing is no problem. The problem comes with names. Often I will feel forced to change the name of an NPC or location in a pre-written module if pronouncing the name wouldn't fit in with the lingual tone of Danish. This in turn forces me to keep confusing cliff notes on all NPCs and location where I changed the name. All in all, it's an annoyance.

I realize there isn't much to do about it but I came to wonder how other non-english as primary language speaking people handle it

[Jack of Spades]

Well, as you've probably noticed, half of those names sound silly in English too

In a lot of cases, wouldn't it be as simple as breaking the words into parts and translating them? For Ravenloft and other names like that, I mean. I haven't heard Danish, but the Germanic languages I have heard all had the sort of sound that would go decently with most "fantasy" words-- especially since a large number of those are Germanic anyways.

I could see Gaelic roots being a problem, but those aren't too common... Latin and Greek roots are mostly used in fantasy because they sound strange in English, to make the words stick out from normal speech, so I wouldn't expect a problem there. Same story for Asian, African and Middle Eastern roots.

[oxybe]

myself i'm from a small rural french community in eastern canada. i was raised french, educated in french, went to a french college and even post-college i worked doing tech support in (you guessed it, french)

growing up, the only time i spoke english was basically when i was hanging out with my friends and played D&D or videogames, since you didn't get the option to choose you language on too many text-heavy NES or SNES games.

now admittingly, our dialect is littered with english words. we would often say "truck" or "car" instead of "camion" or "automobile" for example, borrowing from english in a very utilitarian manner.

we roughed through it though and kept the names as they were. fantasy names always sounded stupid or ridiculous for the most part. keeping the english names was no different then keeping the elven or dwarven ones, though we might have gotten a few pronunciations wrong over time.

[scurv]

I am not even sure there is a proper pronunciation for most of those elven themed words in English. I think for many of them I have heard them pronunciation 2 or three ways each.

[Guizonde]

so far, most problems stem from the fact that about half my group uses the french books, and the other half use the internet (srd, pdfs, scans, ebooks, whatever). we get lost in translation a lot, especially when it comes down to spells and references. two notable incidents:

-swordsage. my experienced dm could not fathom what that was, and i struggled a lot in describing it until we checked dnd tools.
-tome of battle: in french "tome de la bataille" which is a non-official splatbook, and we have a semi-strict "no-fanmade" rule. my dm said "complete warrior", i said no, and we had a shouting match until his girlfriend checked wikipedia and came up with the isbn reference. (turns out tome of battle was a 90's fanmade compendium, then edited by WotC in 2006 if memory serves)

also, searing light has two very different descriptions between english and french. one is a beam of light, the other a cone of fire. yeah... we houseruled it's a cone of very hot light.

regarding names, "saul vankaskerkin" (an npc in a pathfinder module) is unpronounceable in any language. you will stumble on the last name. no exceptions. it also seems like french is a poor language when it comes to guttural names (think cookie-monster vocals type of sounds)

[huttj509]

In terms of pronounciation...

Drow rhymes with bow, it's easy. :-P

I can empathize with the name situation. In the Legend of the Five Rings game I'm in my DM periodically has trouble with some of the Japanese-themed names he encounters in the modules (which tends to surprise me, since the names tend to just be strings of consonant-vowel pairs which have consistent sounds, though the resulting string might be unfamiliar to the American ear...then again, I did study Japanese a little in College...).

[Darwin]

regarding names, "saul vankaskerkin" (an npc in a pathfinder module) is unpronounceable in any language. you will stumble on the last name. no exceptions. it also seems like french is a poor language when it comes to guttural names (think cookie-monster vocals type of sounds)

Actually, Vankaskerkin is very pronounceable in Danish, I'm stealing that for an NPC

[Killer Angel]

The problem comes with names. Often I will feel forced to change the name of an NPC or location in a pre-written module if pronouncing the name wouldn't fit in with the lingual tone of Danish. This in turn forces me to keep confusing cliff notes on all NPCs and location where I changed the name. All in all, it's an annoyance.

Names are not a problem. Your players won't notice them.

[Darwin]

Names are not a problem. Your players won't notice them.

I hoped I could change that by using names that are easily remembered and actually pronounceable Knowing my players, it probaly won't.

[hymer]

I wonder how you get problems here. Don't you speak Danglish at RP table anyway?

"Har du proficiency?"
"I longsword?"
"Ja, eller har du bare nok attack bonus?"
"Jeg troede det var minus to for nonproficiency for warriors."
"Det er fra second edition. Alle har minus fire nu, hvis jeg husker ret. Ellers slå det op i Player's Handbook."

Adding in names in invented languages, and just plain invented names, the Babel-speak at my table isn't much altered by pronouncing an English name. What names specifically trip you guys up?

[Darwin]

I wonder how you get problems here. Don't you speak Danglish at RP table anyway?

"Har du proficiency?"
"I longsword?"
"Ja, eller har du bare nok attack bonus?"
"Jeg troede det var minus to for nonproficiency for warriors."
"Det er fra second edition. Alle har minus fire nu, hvis jeg husker ret. Ellers slå det op i Player's Handbook."

Adding in names in invented languages, and just plain invented names, the Babel-speak at my table isn't much altered by pronouncing an English name. What names specifically trip you guys up?

You're right, that is precisely what we sound like when playing. A longsword is called a longsword and not "slagsværd" etc. It's locations and NPC names that bothers us. Yesterday fx. I was reading through Temple of Elemental Evil (1e) and nearly half of the names in there would sound ridiculous at our table. Some worse than others, naturally

[GolemsVoice]

Really? How do they sound ridicilous? I and my players usually roll with the given names, as others said, they'd sound strange even in English.

Of course, you've got the occasional name they borrowed from German (Blutspur! Johann von Richten!) that really DOES sound silly when you actually understand what's being said.

I too, don't have any problems with Vankaskerkin. Them Germans love themselves some k's.

[some guy]

I usually use names in such a way that names are dependant on region. If someone with an English name is in a city, it could be as a visitor or immigrant or something like that.

[rant]
My main gripe is with the imperial system, though. I have yet to find a rpg-system that uses metric. Feet aren't bad in themselves, it's when inches and miles get involved that my blood starts boiling.
[/rant]

[NikitaDarkstar]

Really? How do they sound ridicilous? I and my players usually roll with the given names, as others said, they'd sound strange even in English.

Of course, you've got the occasional name they borrowed from German (Blutspur! Johann von Richten!) that really DOES sound silly when you actually understand what's being said.

I too, don't have any problems with Vankaskerkin. Them Germans love themselves some k's.

Ditto, Sweden don't mind the K's either (even if I want to put some C's in there, but ehh, it's pronounceable. Heck it's easier to spell and say than my own family name soo...).

As for names, I can see how it is an issue. The "longsword", "Proficiency" and even spell-names can be used as out of character stuff. It's simply easier to communicate the English term when your source material is English. But for some people using English sounding names In character in a game that's otherwise run in another language breaks immersion for some people. It's not a universal problem, but it is a fairly common one.

What I'd suggest is something that my old DM used to do for anything he ran. He'd go over the material and make an alphabetical list of names (often splitting the categories into npc's and place names if need be) and write the original name on the left and then think up a better, Swedish sounding name and put that on the right, that way he had an easy, and ready to use reference list for when he needed it.

[oxybe]

Vankaskerkin is a bit of a tongue twister in french but doable.

"Vent" as in wind, "casse" from "casse-tete" as puzzle, "coeur" as in heart and finally kin would be... well i can't think of a real word but it would be pronounced "quin".

Vent-casse-coeur-quin.

it's still a weird sounding word though.

[Darwin]

Vankaskerkin is a bit of a tongue twister in french but doable.

"Vent" as in wind, "casse" from "casse-tete" as puzzle, "coeur" as in heart and finally kin would be... well i can't think of a real word but it would be pronounced "quin".

Vent-casse-coeur-quin.

it's still a weird sounding word though.

Makes it sound like the password for the secret door to the Wizards inner sanctum!

Edit: Not to derail the thread. But "Vankaskerkin", pronounced "Vent-casse-coeur-quin." is now the answer to the riddle that will open the hidden passage which the Princess used to escape the man her father had forced her to marry. Vankaskerkin is the name of the man she loved, and "Vent-casse-coeur-quin" is how it is pronounced in her language. The riddle goes something like: "The key is his name spoken in her loving voice".

[hymer]

I still don't quite get how the language is a barrier to anything. Why go to all that trouble with making up translations? A name is a name, isn't it? Why not just use it as is, OOC as well as IC? Feels like your characters are suddenly speaking English? Well, not so weird from them speaking German, Dutch or Swahili. It's translation convention.
I guess it's just different to some people. I'd call Hommlet and the Temple of Elemental Evil by their English names, just like I would use the only available version (English) if I talked about York or the Great Barrier Reef. Of course, some names do have Danish names too, like the Thames or Ireland, but for the rest, I just use the original and don't look back.

[Calmar]

I find it somewhat annoying when people I game with use English terms for stuff that has a perfectly fine German word. It's ok to use English for game terms, because the translation seems to be quite lacking and at times misleading, but weapons, classes and most spells have names that can easily be translated in the language of the group.

I was in a group with a guy once who had the very annoying habit to use English terms for everything, supposedly to sound smarter, or something. Then his "English" pronunciation was everything but stellar and he liked to English-ify terms, like turning 'coup de grâce' into 'cup dee grays' while being vehemently resistant to any clarification.

[Guizonde]

I find it somewhat annoying when people I game with use English terms for stuff that has a perfectly fine German word. It's ok to use English for game terms, because the translation seems to be quite lacking and at times misleading, but weapons, classes and most spells have names that can easily be translated in the language of the group.

I was in a group with a guy once who had the very annoying habit to use English terms for everything, supposedly to sound smarter, or something. Then his "English" pronunciation was everything but stellar and he liked to English-ify terms, like turning 'coup de grâce' into 'cup dee grays' while being vehemently resistant to any clarification.

-in english: morningstar
in dnd english: morningstar
-in french: étoile du matin (yup, litteral)
in dnd french: morgenstern (derp mode activate)

for us? "beatstick" suffices (well... "tatanne", but that's slang for a slipper, so...)

[thethird]

That happens quite a lot here are my table.

Most of my fellow players have the books in Spanish, but I have them in English. Is easy enough to navigate with classes using derp translation (most of the time it works) or saying the "ninja/monk/rogue from tome of battle" or "the guy that steals spells from compete adventurer". But feats... Oh boy... I normally have to borrow the books in Spanish to check the names and make sure everything is correct.

Funny thing is when the translation doesn't really fit, or is misleading it happens.

Vankaskerkin is pronounceable in Spanish

[nedz]

In terms of pronounciation...

Drow rhymes with bow, it's easy. :-P

Did you mean bow or bow ?
Homonyms are quite annoying.

[huttj509]

Did you mean bow or bow ?
Homonyms are quite annoying.

That was exactly the point.

[Killer Angel]

I find it somewhat annoying when people I game with use English terms for stuff that has a perfectly fine German word. It's ok to use English for game terms, because the translation seems to be quite lacking and at times misleading, but weapons, classes and most spells have names that can easily be translated in the language of the group.

That's true, but sometime, you use directly the english version of the manuals, and the english term remains stickied in your tongue/brain, even if you know that there is a perfectly reasonable translation in your language. I find it happens frequently for spells' names, in our group.

[Firest Kathon]

-in english: morningstar
in dnd english: morningstar
-in french: étoile du matin (yup, litteral)
in dnd french: morgenstern (derp mode activate)

for us? "beatstick" suffices (well... "tatanne", but that's slang for a slipper, so...)

Morgenstern in the literal German translation of morningstar.

[Guizonde]

Morgenstern in the literal German translation of morningstar.

exactly! so why does a morningstar(english) get translated in french as "morgenstern"(german) rather than "étoile du matin"(french)? that's always bugged me. especially since there are instances in flavor text blocks where they are called "étoiles du matin"...

[endoperez]

I'd like to run an Ars Magica game for a group of people who speak Dutch.

In Ars Magica, the powerful wizards covet a specific type of magical substance that makes then even more powerful, lets them do awesome magical items and conduct important rituals.

This substance is called "Vis"... identical to the Dutch word for "fish".

As if that wasn't enough, Vis is first acquired in an unstable form called Raw Vis , which has to be processed in a magical laboratory.

[JusticeZero]

This substance is called "Vis"... identical to the Dutch word for "fish".

Yeah, but Ars Magica gives English speakers translation trouble too. I ended up needing to keep two Latin to English translation sites bookmarked, and we'd occasionally have to research and debate over linguistic notes on how exactly to voice all that Latin.

Which by the way, was always an eyeroller - having a culture of people actively using Latin as their operant language eventually defeats the whole point of using Latin, which is that it is universal because NOBODY USES IT, thus freezing it.

"Vis", by the way, is apparently pronounced "Weese".

I just avoid the whole issue by making all my own game worlds. The length of a battlemap square can be a standard unit of measurement, probably based on the height of some long-dead, 5' tall monarch.

[dps]

Actually, Vankaskerkin is very pronounceable in Danish, I'm stealing that for an NPC

"Saul Vankaskerkin" is easily pronouncable in American English, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if there actually are Americans with that name.

[Mono Vertigo]

exactly! so why does a morningstar(english) get translated in french as "morgenstern"(german) rather than "étoile du matin"(french)? that's always bugged me. especially since there are instances in flavor text blocks where they are called "étoiles du matin"...

I can answer that!
When referring to the weapon, it's not unusual to call it "morgenstern" because it is known as a german weapon (perhaps the origin is wrong, but after checking wikipedia, it appears it was mostly used in Germany when its use became widespread, so there you go), and the name was directly borrowed from the language. "Etoile du matin" is also a correct term, but I believe it is less used, simply because it can also refer to a literal morning star, or the planet Venus, or several Christian figures. "Morgenstern", when spoken by French, holds no such ambiguity.
That, or it's because it's one syllable shorter.

[nedz]

I just avoid the whole issue by making all my own game worlds. The length of a battlemap square can be a standard unit of measurement, probably based on the height of some long-dead, 5' tall monarch.

The 5' square is an abstraction. There are optional rules somewhere for using metres instead. There is no reason why you couldn't change them to 1 metre or 1 yard or even pi feet if you wished — it's probably more trouble than it's worth though.