Toughness Feat Fix

[Octopusapult]

Toughness

Adds your CON score in HP permanently. Can be taken multiple times.

Overpowered? Still useless? Eh?

Also, for some context, I'm asking your opinions on this fix because I'm maybe running a Core only (or mostly core) campaign coming up and I hate the idea of these kinds of waste feats. So, do you think it contends (in this state) with some of the better PHB Feats or no?

[Temotei]

Overpowered? Still useless? Eh?

Also, for some context, I'm asking your opinions on this fix because I'm maybe running a Core only (or mostly core) campaign coming up and I hate the idea of these kinds of waste feats. So, do you think it contends (in this state) with some of the better PHB Feats or no?

You become basically invincible at very low levels and then the feat becomes outclassed at higher levels again. It's much better, but for reference, Improved Toughness (+1 hp/HD) is considered mediocre or bad and even its variant (+3 hp and +1 hp/HD) is just meh.

Anything that just adds hit points isn't going to be great, though.

[Octopusapult]

You become basically invincible at very low levels and then the feat becomes outclassed at higher levels again. It's much better, but for reference, Improved Toughness (+1 hp/HD) is considered mediocre or bad and even its variant (+3 hp and +1 hp/HD) is just meh.

Anything that just adds hit points isn't going to be great, though.

Yeah that's true... I feel so spoiled you know? Having a bunch of sourcebooks to pull feats and abilities from, and now having to return to (mostly) core so I can show new people the game without overloading them. I really hate to have to say to them "This feat is just useless... and so is that one...and that one..."

[FreakyCheeseMan]

...I had never actually read the text of toughness until this moment.

That is awful. That is horribly awful. Is it meant to be a joke? Were the designers drunk? Who wrote that?

That being said, I could see something like a flat 2-4HP/level being a not-unreasonable feat. Still not great, but not a simple case of player trolling, either. I wouldn't tie it to con, because this feat is most useful to players currently suffering - say, the sorcerer who has somehow racked up a -3 CON modifier, and is stuck at 1HP per level. Make the text of the feat such that the bonus HP apply *after* everything, so if you have penalties that would reduce you to less than 1 HP per level, you still get 3 or 5 per level with this feat.

[Temotei]

Yeah that's true... I feel so spoiled you know? Having a bunch of sourcebooks to pull feats and abilities from, and now having to return to (mostly) core so I can show new people the game without overloading them. I really hate to have to say to them "This feat is just useless... and so is that one...and that one..."

I know the feeling. "Let's keep it simple," say they. "Screw that," I say. "It's simpler when you're not dead because you're worthless."

How about this: "You permanently have a number of temporary hit points equal to your Hit Dice plus your Constitution modifier (minimum 1). You may rest for 1 minute to restore these temporary hit points."

This way, it's still meaningful at low levels without being too good while at the same time being "just okay" at higher levels because it scales decently. Thoughts?

[bobthe6th]

Yeah that's true... I feel so spoiled you know? Having a bunch of sourcebooks to pull feats and abilities from, and now having to return to (mostly) core so I can show new people the game without overloading them. I really hate to have to say to them "This feat is just useless... and so is that one...and that one..."

Look at the core coliseum... SRD core, and there is more builds then you could shake a stick at.

Though I would suggest using the rest of 3.5 to grab stuff from. A list of feats that fill out limited chains(the spring attack improvments), and ones that make builds viable(Dark stalker).

[Octopusapult]

That is awful. That is horribly awful. Is it meant to be a joke? Were the designers drunk? Who wrote that?

That being said, I could see something like a flat 2-4HP/level being a not-unreasonable feat. Still not great, but not a simple case of player trolling, either. I wouldn't tie it to con, because this feat is most useful to players currently suffering - say, the sorcerer who has somehow racked up a -3 CON modifier, and is stuck at 1HP per level.

I feel this way about a lot of feats... Leadership (Which I feel should be a Roleplaying Element, not something unlocked through game rules) and things that add +2 to this skill and that skill are all just huge wastes.

You're right about the idea being for characters who are lacking in HP. I hadn't initially thought about how they'd have a low CON and it really wouldn't end up doing more for them.

I know the feeling. "Let's keep it simple," say they. "Screw that," I say. "It's simpler when you're not dead because you're worthless."

How about this: "You permanently have a number of temporary hit points equal to your Hit Dice plus your Constitution modifier (minimum 1). These temporary hit points are restored automatically every minute in which you take no damage."

This way, it's still meaningful at low levels without being too good while at the same time being "just okay" at higher levels because it scales decently. Thoughts?

This premise reminds me of a game like Mass Effect where you lose health in segments and those individual segments can be restored just by not taking damage for a few seconds.

I don't know... I could see it becoming a pretty popular level-1 feat the way you've suggested it. Which is good, because I want it to be useful.

[Draz74]

I know the feeling. "Let's keep it simple," say they. "Screw that," I say. "It's simpler when you're not dead because you're worthless."

How about this: "You permanently have a number of temporary hit points equal to your Hit Dice plus your Constitution modifier (minimum 1). These temporary hit points are restored automatically every minute in which you take no damage."

This way, it's still meaningful at low levels without being too good while at the same time being "just okay" at higher levels because it scales decently. Thoughts?

One of the better fixes I've seen. Pretty good way to make it scale.

Keeping track of "how many rounds has it been since I took damage?" during combat is a headache, though. Might be better if you actually had to rest for one minute to renew the tHP.

[TuggyNE]

I feel this way about a lot of feats... Leadership (Which I feel should be a Roleplaying Element, not something unlocked through game rules) and things that add +2 to this skill and that skill are all just huge wastes.

Leadership is indeed one of the most broken feats … brokenly powerful, that is. With decent optimization you can do all kinds of absurd stuff to abuse WBL, action economy, or spells.

[ericgrau]

For a near core game improved toughness is quite good, probably too good. I'd even do 2 hp per 3 levels, non-stackable. For that matter there is a reason con is everyone's second stat. Even outside of core you have to be playing at rather super high op before hp doesn't matter. If you're going combo-riffic then you need all your feats for your combo and can't fit it, but it still doesn't suck.

Regular toughness works in core for levels 1-5, the problem comes on anyone who plans on going to a higher level. It's a scaling issue which scaling hp fixes. The issue gets even worse outside of core as feats get better in general.

[Temotei]

One of the better fixes I've seen. Pretty good way to make it scale.

Keeping track of "how many rounds has it been since I took damage?" during combat is a headache, though. Might be better if you actually had to rest for one minute to renew the tHP.

That's a good idea. Edited in to my post in case anyone cares.

[Jane_Smith]

Or you could just remove toughness entirely, and combine it with great fortitude, combine improved initiative with lightning reflexes, and something with iron will. These 3 feats have needed love for a long time.

Great Fortitude: con bonus as bonus hit points, +1 hit point/hit dice, +2 to fort saves.

Lightning Reflexes: +4 to initiative checks, +1 dodge to ac, +2 to reflex saves.

Iron Will: +4 to concentration checks, you may half (rounded up) or double the duration of any mind-affecting effect on you. +2 to will saves.

[Debihuman]

How about the PCs don't take the feats that they don't like, work on increasing their Con in 4 levels, and let the DM use the toughness feat on the monster?

Not all feats are there just to serve PCs' purposes. If you "fix" it for the PCs then I'd say wait and see how much good it does when your DM gives it to his monsters.

It isn't broken and it doesn't need fixing.

[Fortuna]

If your monsters need to take junk feats to be of an appropriate power level, then I'm going to call that a problem with the monsters and how they gain feats rather than a feature of the feats themselves.

For my own take on a toughness fix, I'd personally tie it to hit dice. Any feat that adds flat hit points, or hit points per Con mod, or hit points per hit die, or what have you, will be far more valuable for those already fragile than for those who can take a hit or two. I would have it act as a multiplier on your hit points from hit dice, rather than being additive. For example, perhaps you get one hit point per d4, two per d6, three per d8, four per d10 and five per d12 (this example is more or less worthless for the fragile folks, and is intended only as a rough sketch-of-concept, not an actual draft feat).

[Jane_Smith]

It isn't broken and it doesn't need fixing.

If your gonna come to the homebrew section to tell someone there idea of a fix is unneeded, etc, rather then give more helpful advice, be a dear and don't speak. The fact you came here to this section of the forum to tell someone something does not need to be fixed means you just browsed the HOMEBREW threads, found one that should hold no relative interest to you if that comment is true to your opinion, purely to make that out of place and unneeded comment. That's beyond rude, unnecessary, unhelpful, and I will call you out on it.

That aside, There was a series of feats from 3.0 that was like "Dragonblooded", etc, that added more and more hp in a tree. Like toughness 3, then next one was 10, then 20, then 30. So obviously wotc thinks its fine to give a flat 3-30 hp in single pre-epic feats. You could always make it like, +5 or more hp, +1 per level, even 10 flat would be nice. Or maybe just a flat 15, take it as many times as you like.

[Just to Browse]

Debi, toughness is just as crap on a monster as it is on a PC. 3 HP means almost nothing after level 2, which means the feat is broken and does need fixing.

Standard toughness is like the best feat ever at level 1 because 3 HP is maybe half of a wizard's HP in the first place. If you make toughness 1 HP + 2HP/lvl gives you toughness at level 1, and then a significant chunk of hit points thereon out.

But honestly the idea of granting HP from straight out from a feat bothers me. Perhaps it could be a feat chain?

[Veklim]

I presented a bunch of rolled-up feats a while back in an attempt to rectify the awful feats in PHB, and to reduce feat taxes slightly, you can find it here, perhaps it is relevant/useful to you!?

[Frozen_Feet]

This thread got me thinking of my own toughness fix. Specifically, how well it scales to high levels. Here's the relevant text:

Toughness [General] [Tenacity] [Fighter]
Benefit: For each [Tenacity] feat you have, you can add again your Constitution modifier (if positive) to your Hitpoints. If your constitution increases afterwards, this benefit retroactively increases.
At four or more [Tenacity] feats, you get the ability to once per encounter, when rolling iniative, get twice the number of your [Tenacity] feats as Temporary hitpoints. This takes no action.

Now, at low levels, the effect is quite mild. Suppose you are a Barbarian, with 18 con. Raging puts you at 22. That's +6 hitpoints. Nice, but not something that breaks the game.

Flash-forward to level 9. You can expect to have 3 - 4 [Tenacity] feats. Let's suppose your Con stays about the same. +18 to +24 hitpoints, hot or not?

And then we have the extreme far end, Level 20 Human Fighter who spends all his feats (17, under my fix) on [Tenacity] feats and optimizes for Con. 34 Con isn't even hard. That'd be +12 x 17 = 204 bonus hitpoints, and 34 Temporary hitpoints on top. At high levels, you can expect between 100 to 300 hitpoints on top of your existing ones from this single feat. Good, bad, broken?

[ngilop]

My own version of Toughness goes like this 2 bonus HP plus an additional bonus HP per Hit Die


so at first level/first hit die it +3 HP but at say Level 20 its +22 HP, not all that amazingly Oped as say Natural Spell or any of the meta magic feats but it is better than having 2 higher con in terms of extra hit points

I thought about Improved toughness giving the same amount of HP but alos adding in either extra natural Armor or Damage reduction.

But yeah a flat amount no matter where it is is over powered at one point just about right at another and completely overshadowed at a third point.

[Octopusapult]

I know the feeling. "Let's keep it simple," say they. "Screw that," I say. "It's simpler when you're not dead because you're worthless."

How about this: "You permanently have a number of temporary hit points equal to your Hit Dice plus your Constitution modifier (minimum 1). You may rest for 1 minute to restore these temporary hit points."

This way, it's still meaningful at low levels without being too good while at the same time being "just okay" at higher levels because it scales decently. Thoughts?

I accept this as an improvement over my original idea, thanks Temotei and Draz.

[Yitzi]

Keep in mind that all those monsters who take Toughness numerous times will be boosted a lot by that, so that'll need compensating for.

[Carl]

Here's a simple idea:


"All current and future Hit Dice are now maximised, i.e. treat them as having rolled the maximum possible.".

It's powerful, but not insane. Obviously you'd have to limit it to 1 rank only and treat excess ranks on monsters with it as lost, but it works.

[Octopusapult]

Here's a simple idea:


"All current and future Hit Dice are now maximised, i.e. treat them as having rolled the maximum possible.".

It's powerful, but not insane. Obviously you'd have to limit it to 1 rank only and treat excess ranks on monsters with it as lost, but it works.

As a houserule I typically do this anyway.

[DracoDei]

To me, Toughness exists to help out low level d4 types. I can see the point to adding scaling to it.

Improved Toughness exists to... help out someone, don't know who, since I can't remember the pre-requisites.

My personal reason for coming to this thread was to check on some thinking I have about some class-specific feats for the Grace-Gift I am working on.

Spoiler

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I think all that you need to know about the class for this circumstance is that get d12 hit-dice, lots of bonus feats, have some MAD problems, tend to get hit medium-often when played right*, and can do a 1 round version of Shield Other as one of their many swift action spell-like abilities.
*And either hardly at all, or very frequently when played either ineptly or munchkin.

I am trying to allow the feats to offset the MAD. My recommendations for playing it are: Cha > Str > Con > Dex ~= Wis ~= Int

As part of this I gave them the ability to take Improved Toughness at 1st level. Should be a good enough feat, especially in the long run, since, as I said, they get a LOT of bonus feats.

But even so, my play-test character is feeling a bit anemic in the hitpoint department compared to the campaign power level, plus I want to have feats for EVERYTHING.

What I have done is make some class-specific feats that have Improved Toughness as a prerequisite. I probably have the class level requirements set too high.
At level 11(Should be 3?) you can upgrade to +2 hp/HD.
At level 13(Should be 5?) you can further upgrade to +3 hp/HD.
At level 15(Should be 7?) you can further upgrade to +4 hp/HD.
Finally at level 17(Should be 9?) you can upgrade one last time to +6hp/HD.

I have been seriously considering making the jumps +2 rather than +1, with the final one being +3 instead of +2.... although that might not mesh with the reduced class-level requirements.

How about the PCs don't take the feats that they don't like, work on increasing their Con in 4 levels, and let the DM use the toughness feat on the monster?

Not all feats are there just to serve PCs' purposes. If you "fix" it for the PCs then I'd say wait and see how much good it does when your DM gives it to his monsters.

It isn't broken and it doesn't need fixing.

If your gonna come to the homebrew section to tell someone there idea of a fix is unneeded, etc, rather then give more helpful advice, be a dear and don't speak. The fact you came here to this section of the forum to tell someone something does not need to be fixed means you just browsed the HOMEBREW threads, found one that should hold no relative interest to you if that comment is true to your opinion, purely to make that out of place and unneeded comment. That's beyond rude, unnecessary, unhelpful, and I will call you out on it.

Eh, Debihuman is "my loyal nemesis". She is a bit... stodgy, for lack of a better word occurring to me at this time, but she means well, and her advice is worth considering.

[Octopusapult]

How about the PCs don't take the feats that they don't like, work on increasing their Con in 4 levels, and let the DM use the toughness feat on the monster?

Not all feats are there just to serve PCs' purposes. If you "fix" it for the PCs then I'd say wait and see how much good it does when your DM gives it to his monsters.

It isn't broken and it doesn't need fixing.

If your gonna come to the homebrew section to tell someone there idea of a fix is unneeded, etc, rather then give more helpful advice, be a dear and don't speak. The fact you came here to this section of the forum to tell someone something does not need to be fixed means you just browsed the HOMEBREW threads, found one that should hold no relative interest to you if that comment is true to your opinion, purely to make that out of place and unneeded comment. That's beyond rude, unnecessary, unhelpful, and I will call you out on it.

That aside, There was a series of feats from 3.0 that was like "Dragonblooded", etc, that added more and more hp in a tree. Like toughness 3, then next one was 10, then 20, then 30. So obviously wotc thinks its fine to give a flat 3-30 hp in single pre-epic feats. You could always make it like, +5 or more hp, +1 per level, even 10 flat would be nice. Or maybe just a flat 15, take it as many times as you like.

Eh, Debihuman is "my loyal nemesis". She is a bit... stodgy, for lack of a better word occurring to me at this time, but she means well, and her advice is worth considering.

First of all, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I had been avoiding saying that, but so everyone is clear, I see it, good for her for thinking so, that's on her.

Second, thank you Jane for pointing out that if everyone came to the homebrew section and said "it doesn't need fixed, shut up" it would be really boring here. But again everyone gets their opinion, nothing to be done about that but carry on.

Third, (@ Draco) I didn't have a problem with her saying whatever she came here to say, it's a public forum. I just think it's weird that she came here out of her way to be so negative in a homebrewing forum. If everyone made posts like that, the quality of this forum would drop dramatically.

So it's there, we've all seen it, nothing else to do, no one cares anymore, back to topic.

@ Jane as for your suggestion of the Toughness coming down in a tree (which I had initially missed as it was overshadowed by the first half of your post) I think it's an awesome idea, and I I'm torn between this and the temporary HP as submitted by Temotei & Draz. Because I like the idea of introducing a really simple form of healing to the game.

To me, Toughness exists to help out low level d4 types. I can see the point to adding scaling to it.

Improved Toughness exists to... help out someone, don't know who, since I can't remember the pre-requisites.

My personal reason for coming to this thread was to check on some thinking I have about some class-specific feats for the Grace-Gift I am working on.

Spoiler

Show

I think all that you need to know about the class for this circumstance is that get d12 hit-dice, lots of bonus feats, have some MAD problems, tend to get hit medium-often when played right*, and can do a 1 round version of Shield Other as one of their many swift action spell-like abilities.
*And either hardly at all, or very frequently when played either ineptly or munchkin.

I am trying to allow the feats to offset the MAD. My recommendations for playing it are: Cha > Str > Con > Dex ~= Wis ~= Int

As part of this I gave them the ability to take Improved Toughness at 1st level. Should be a good enough feat, especially in the long run, since, as I said, they get a LOT of bonus feats.

But even so, my play-test character is feeling a bit anemic in the hitpoint department compared to the campaign power level, plus I want to have feats for EVERYTHING.

What I have done is make some class-specific feats that have Improved Toughness as a prerequisite. I probably have the class level requirements set too high.
At level 11(Should be 3?) you can upgrade to +2 hp/HD.
At level 13(Should be 5?) you can further upgrade to +3 hp/HD.
At level 15(Should be 7?) you can further upgrade to +4 hp/HD.
Finally at level 17(Should be 9?) you can upgrade one last time to +6hp/HD.

I have been seriously considering making the jumps +2 rather than +1, with the final one being +3 instead of +2.... although that might not mesh with the reduced class-level requirements.

You're saying Class Specific Feats as in the same way that a Fighter can only select certain feats as his bonus feats right? So you want this class to have bonus feats, but only a limited selection?

If that's the case, then a scaling Toughness feat (or a Toughness Tree, or combination thereof) for use as a stepping stone to bigger Feats is a good way to get the class more health for sure, as they'll practically need it for basic advancement. The only draw I could think of is that there are probably better feats to use as Prerequisites that make more sense. I mean I can't think of a lot of feats that I could justify requiring your character to be "Healthier" to take. I hope that makes sense...

[DracoDei]

You're saying Class Specific Feats as in the same way that a Fighter can only select certain feats as his bonus feats right? So you want this class to have bonus feats, but only a limited selection?

They are a limited selection but also, almost all of the ones I created have prerequisites of levels in the class, much like weapon specialization requires fighter (or warblade) levels. Hopefully, unlike weapon finesse, they are actually worth taking.

Note that they CAN spend their non-bonus feats on Grace-Gift specific feats, and hopefully it is a reasonable option to do so.

If that's the case, then a scaling Toughness feat (or a Toughness Tree, or combination thereof) for use as a stepping stone to bigger Feats is a good way to get the class more health for sure, as they'll practically need it for basic advancement. The only draw I could think of is that there are probably better feats to use as Prerequisites that make more sense. I mean I can't think of a lot of feats that I could justify requiring your character to be "Healthier" to take. I hope that makes sense...

Err... the ONLY things in that particular feat tree are things that give more hitpoints.

Copy of most relevant sections of class and feats (heavily edited for situational clarity):

Spoiler

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Class feature:
Bonus Feats:
At various levels the grace-gift gains a bonus feat from the following lists. When taken in this way they do not need to meet the character level, ability score, base attack, maneuver/stance knowledge, or saving throw prerequisites of that feat. Prerequisites that take the form of other feats are required only for feats that are also on one of these lists. For example: the Improved Blocker feat requires the Combat Reflexes and Blocker feats, but, if taken in this manner does not require a +10 BAB, nor the Combat Expertise feat. They DO have to meet any class level requirements. For the bonus feats granted at first and second class levels only feats from List I may be selected.

Current schedule of feats (including general feat slots for single-classed characters).

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{table=head]Level|Special

1st|Bonus Feat(I), General Feat (I or general)

2nd|Bonus Feat(I)

3rd|Bonus Feat(I or II), General Feat (I, II, or general)

4th|Bonus Feat(I or II)

5th|-

6th|General Feat (I to III, or general)

7th|Bonus Feat(I to IV)

8th|-

9th|Bonus Feat(I to V), General Feat (I to IV or general)

10th|-

11th|Bonus Feat(I to VI)

12th|General Feat (I to VI, or general)

13th|-

14th|Bonus Feat(I to VII)

15th|General Feat(I to VIII)

16th|-

17th|Bonus Feat(I to IX)

18th|General Feat(I to IX)

19th|Bonus Feat(I to IX)

20th|-
[/table]

List I:(Remember, I am cutting everything from these lists EXCEPT the hitpoint increasing feats)
Improved Toughness

List II (Grace-gift level 3):
-
List III (Grace-gift level 5):
-

List IV (Grace-gift level 7):
-

List V (Grace-gift level 9):
-

List VI (Grace-gift level 11):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least* (Requires Improved Toughness.)((Considering moving this whole feat chain back two class levels and adding a final one that gives +8/level. Or maybe even moving it back so it starts at 3rd level and each feat increments by 2, except for the last one which does 3.))

List VII (Grace gift level 13):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least, and Improved Toughness.)

List VIII (Grace gift level 15):
Grace-Gift's Toughness* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser, which, in turn, requires two other specific feats.)


List IX (Grace gift level 17):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, which, in turn, requires three other specific feats.)

*These feats are new and specific to the class.


New Feats
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and a shield that can not take a few nicks is utterly worthless.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 11, Improved Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +2/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and shields need to be strong.
Prerequisites:
Grace-gift level 13
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +3/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grace-Gift's Toughness[Grace-Gift]
Some shields are better-made than others.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 15
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +4/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved [Grace-Gift]
Pain is only the sign that someone is making a feeble attempt to remove you from between them and those you protect.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 17
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Grace-Gift's Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +6/level(sic). This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 17 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

[Octopusapult]

They are a limited selection but also, almost all of the ones I created have prerequisites of levels in the class, much like weapon specialization requires fighter (or warblade) levels. Hopefully, unlike weapon finesse, they are actually worth taking.

Note that they CAN spend their non-bonus feats on Grace-Gift specific feats, and hopefully it is a reasonable option to do so.

Err... the ONLY things in that particular feat tree are things that give more hitpoints.

Copy of most relevant sections of class and feats (heavily edited for situational clarity):

Class feature:
Bonus Feats:

Spoiler

Show

At various levels the grace-gift gains a bonus feat from the following lists. When taken in this way they do not need to meet the character level, ability score, base attack, maneuver/stance knowledge, or saving throw prerequisites of that feat. Prerequisites that take the form of other feats are required only for feats that are also on one of these lists. For example: the Improved Blocker feat requires the Combat Reflexes and Blocker feats, but, if taken in this manner does not require a +10 BAB, nor the Combat Expertise feat. They DO have to meet any class level requirements. For the bonus feats granted at first and second class levels only feats from List I may be selected.

Current schedule of feats (including general feat slots for single-classed characters).

Spoiler

Show

{table=head]Level|Special

1st|Bonus Feat(I), General Feat (I or general)

2nd|Bonus Feat(I)

3rd|Bonus Feat(I or II), General Feat (I, II, or general)

4th|Bonus Feat(I or II)

5th|-

6th|General Feat (I to III, or general)

7th|Bonus Feat(I to IV)

8th|-

9th|Bonus Feat(I to V), General Feat (I to IV or general)

10th|-

11th|Bonus Feat(I to VI)

12th|General Feat (I to VI, or general)

13th|-

14th|Bonus Feat(I to VII)

15th|General Feat(I to VIII)

16th|-

17th|Bonus Feat(I to IX)

18th|General Feat(I to IX)

19th|Bonus Feat(I to IX)

20th|-
[/table]

List I:(Remember, I am cutting everything from these lists EXCEPT the hitpoint increasing feats)
Improved Toughness

List II (Grace-gift level 3):
-
List III (Grace-gift level 5):
-

List IV (Grace-gift level 7):
-

List V (Grace-gift level 9):
-

List VI (Grace-gift level 11):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least* (Requires Improved Toughness.)((Considering moving this whole feat chain back two class levels and adding a final one that gives +8/level. Or maybe even moving it back so it starts at 3rd level and each feat increments by 2, except for the last one which does 3.))

List VII (Grace gift level 13):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least, and Improved Toughness.)

List VIII (Grace gift level 15):
Grace-Gift's Toughness* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser, which, in turn, requires two other specific feats.)


List IX (Grace gift level 17):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, which, in turn, requires three other specific feats.)

*These feats are new and specific to the class.


New Feats
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and a shield that can not take a few nicks is utterly worthless.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 11, Improved Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +2/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and shields need to be strong.
Prerequisites:
Grace-gift level 13
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +3/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grace-Gift's Toughness[Grace-Gift]
Some shields are better-made than others.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 15
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +4/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved [Grace-Gift]
Pain is only the sign that someone is making a feeble attempt to remove you from between them and those you protect.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 17
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Grace-Gift's Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +6/level(sic). This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 17 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

I see what you're saying. And that's all I meant as far as using Toughness as a prerequisite. Is that it makes sense as a stepping stone for other health buffs, but the logic applies to other abilities a little less so. I could have been more clear in that last post, but essentially it sounds like you've covered your bases there.

So this class has to select only certain bonus feats and those feats can only be taken by the class? So why not make them a class feature instead? Not that I'm nitpicking, just asking why you decided not to do it that way.

[ericgrau]

I can see Debi's point. Toughness does work fine for 1-5 HD monsters in a core or near-core game. Even with more optimization it's pretty swanky at 1-2 HD. And it's super easy for the DM build with. But on PCs hp is pretty boring, so for them why even have a feat for it?

But instead of ignoring it entirely, I'd shoot for a toughness feat that is slightly weak. That way most people won't take it, but those working on some kind of high hp build still have the option. For example my Pathfinder shield other healer had con as his primary stat and took Pathfinder toughness, which is similar to 3.5 improved toughness. That way he could redirect as much damage as possible.

[DracoDei]

So this class has to select only certain bonus feats and those feats can only be taken by the class? So why not make them a class feature instead? Not that I'm nitpicking, just asking why you decided not to do it that way.

Because not ALL those feats can only be taken by the class, just (almost) all the ones I created myself.

For instance, the full list of (I) feats they can take is as follows:
List I:

Spoiler

Show

Blind-fight
Combat Casting
Combat Reflexes(Special: A grace-gift who takes this feat as a grace-gift bonus feat may substitute Charisma for Dexterity for the purposes of determining how many attacks of opportunity he may make per round)
Devoted Bulwark(ToB)
Die Hard
Disease Resistance
Diving Evasion(Requires 1 Rank of Tumble.)
Dodge
Endurance
Evasive Reflexes(ToB)
Force of Will(Requires Iron Will.)
Great Fortitude
Hostile Mind
Improved Divine Protection*
Improved Toughness
?Iron Heart Aura (ToB)?
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Mental Resistance
Mobility(Requires Dodge.)
Mind Over Body
?Open Minded?
Plague Bane*
Poison Resistance
XxProtecting Paladin*xX((This feat is just a sketch right now.))
Psionic Hole
Rapid Metabolism
Sidestep Charge(Requires Dodge. Special: If taken as a Grace-Gift bonus feat the bonuses to Defensive Strike/Enhanced Defense Strike do NOT apply to this attack.)
Skill Focus(Concentration)
Skill Focus(Heal)
Skill Focus(Tumble)
Shielded Defender
Stand Still
Stoic Defender*
Stone Power(ToB)
Touch of the Grace-Gift*
Up the Walls(Requires you to either have a power point reserve or have psi-like abilities.)
?White Raven Defense(ToB)?

So, over 30 possibilities, only 5 of which require you to have levels of the class. Everything else is SRD, ToB, or my previous homebrew, and isn't meant to be class-specific.

Now at higher levels, you start running out of pre-existing feats I felt were effective enough, and which fit the themes of the Grace-Gift. In fact, from II (Grace-Gift level 3) onward, the class-specific feats that can be taken as bonus feats outnumber the pre-existing feats that can be taken as bonus feats. At VI (Grace-Gift level 11) and onward there ARE no pre-existing feats that I have found that are worth putting in. BUT if I found some, I could slot them in very easily because of the way I have structured everything.

Now I COULD do what they did with the rogues higher level "pick a special ability" and say "...or you can take a feat" and add on "from the following lists"... but that would only make an already VERY wordy class* even more difficult to read and require a very large amount of re-writing.

*Imagine Warlock, but they get all the invocations, and the invocations are built into the descriptions of the class abilities themselves. Yes, I am considering moving the "Gifts" to a seperate area, but there are problems with that since the levels they are obtained are not always odd numbers, and many of them gain SIGNIFICANT options (for instance turning from Levitate to Fly).


So... given the class is Cha > Str > Con > Int ~= Wis ~= Dex, and has a base d12 hitdie, and... everything else I said about how often they tend to get hurt and Shield Other, what do you think of the feats?

[Network]

I see what you're saying. And that's all I meant as far as using Toughness as a prerequisite. Is that it makes sense as a stepping stone for other health buffs, but the logic applies to other abilities a little less so. I could have been more clear in that last post, but essentially it sounds like you've covered your bases there.

It would make sense if the feat works by hit point spending. Much like the Blood magus, but as feats. But, that's only an idea...