OOTS #881 - The Discussion Thread

[Peanut Gallery]

Damn it, Belkar. Why is it the only time I can ever stand your miserable psychopathic character is when you're taking the piss out of Roy? I want to just hate you in peace.

[GigaGuess]

Wow...go Belkar.

Ummm...really not much else to say on this one. Well, aside from "Sunken Cost Fallacy," as mentioned, is a very bad reason to continue. That said, "Either we die on the front lines now, or get ganked once Xykon/LG gets access to the gate later" is a better reason to do what they can.

[Needle]

I'll just say this strip was great, and poor guys

[Byzantine2]

Anyone else think that was the nicest thing anyone could have done for Roy? He really needed the kick in the pants.

Also: Does that sound like... regret coming from Belkar? That is kinda scary coming from him.

[MoonCat]

I was going to say the exact same thing myself. Still won't miss him when he dies, of course.

Spoiler

Show

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Thank you.

[Balok]

The best thing about this strip is how the characters have real foibles. Moments of weakness to counter their moments of strength, emotional highs and lows. It's why this story stands out in the increasingly large crowd.

[Stabbey]

That was fantastic writing. Belkar was absolutely right. What he said was harsh, sure, but it was absolutely the right thing to do to keep things from utter collapse, and to keep Roy from sinking into a pit of despair.

[kurokotetsu]

CAn we get a funny strip about puppies now? I think my heartstrings are strained to the maximum by this point and any more my heart will break.

I blame Cerberus, as did V. Not that it is bad (on the contrary is exceptional) but I need a good Tarquin laugh of Xykon being a lovable psycho a bit after all this Durkon bit.

[Shatteredtower]

Interesting. Two complete comics presented as one? Impressive. Good comics, too. Things are looking Grimm for our fantastic foursome.

[King of Nowhere]

And cooking, belkar. Do not forget about cooking.

[Reddish Mage]

1. The "Wisdom score that lemmings find laugh-worthy" thing was only what Vaarsuvius claimed was the case, and we know about Vaarsuvius' tendency towards overly verbose ways of describing things. In actual fact, while he's been bone-stupid in some arenas (taking a bit to figure out why he should agree to the prison terms of Azure city, for example), he's proven quite capable of both using his own actual past to come up with a lie (he said it "wasn't a bluff", but that's only half-true), and making a fairly well-reasoned argument as to why the Oracle was damn useless and killing him was fine.

2. He strikes me as a Wisdom 8. Generally slower on the uptake, but still capable of some insight now and then--especially when he's personally feeling the same exact sorts of emotions the subject of the pep talk is.

This perhaps belongs in the class/level geekery thread but its blindingly obvious that Belkar's arguments in strip 568 and earlier were 1. decently logical but not profound and 2. totally inappropriate in the circumstances. That's the very example of decent intelligence and low wisdom.

[BobVosh]

Was Belker actually bitter about being there on those terms?

[Anarion]

Really solid writing. After I read it, I realized that the whole comic except for one panel is just the characters standing still against two shades of solid brown, yet the whole thing felt powerful and emotive to me.

Also interesting that Belkar seems to do this. Even before his "reform" he did the same kind of thing to Hinjo and seems to have a knack for getting to the heart of an issue when people are being wimps about it. It's like his one bit of wisdom.

Also: Does that sound like... regret coming from Belkar? That is kinda scary coming from him.

Belkar doesn't look regretful in that last comic. More like a statement of fact, with maybe a hint of spite mixed in.

[TheYell]

I thought Belkar's speech was in line for him. I didn't hear much "reverse psychology" as straight warrior scorn.

I had to look up the sunken cost fallacy:

The idea of sunk costs is often employed when analyzing business decisions. A common example of a sunk cost for a business is the promotion of a brand name. This type of marketing incurs costs that cannot normally be recovered. It is not typically possible to later "demote" one's brand names in exchange for cash.

Oh Wikipedia, you're so innocent.

[snikrept]

Belkar: Demonstrating more insight into other people's character motivations than we thought. Still not sure if advocating continuing a suicide mission is demonstrating wisdom, though. Roy's plan to leave and focus on seeking more and stronger allies seemed the better one to me.

[Harry Leipzig]

This is the lowest Roy has ever been. I can't believe he was ready to pack it in and call it a day. And I can't believe that it was Belkar who snapped him out of it. Belkar is truly moving from fake character development to real character development. The old Belkar would never have said something so honest. He would have just pointlessly mocked Roy's emotional trauma. This new Belkar called him out on it. And admitted that he's a bad person.

And in other news, the team is back in "flying by the seat of our pants" mode. Which is kinda how they've dealt with most of their problems. Commentary by the Giant on well-laid plans, or coincidence? Knowing the Giant, probably the latter.

[Yagerr]

Man, Rich, you are an amazing writer.

"Hurting people is the only thing I'm good at"

Start another kickstarter so I can throw more money at you.

[Angulf]

Ouch, right in the truth.

[Apricot]

Roy acknowledged that he's too clever to be held in any prison.

To me, Belkar's got an average+ intelligence. It's his Wisdom that's the problem. He can come up with good ideas, but he's also got a lot of bad but sociopathically fun-sounding ideas. Due to his wisdom, he's got difficulty filtering out the latter when it would bite him in the ass.

Not going to quote everyone above as well, but those are all good points. Whether or not Belkar's intelligence is above average is hard to say, but he is capable of doing some clever things. Although this last comment reminded me of a line from a Pratchett novel (paraphrased): "He's not smart, but he's so cunning you wouldn't be able to tell!" I'd say this best describes Belkar's "brain-damaged" intelligence best.

[snikrept]

Also, don't they have any consumables that can help Belkar? Roy might detest him and his speech but he's one of their last remaining assets

[Fish]

Roy, I'm a spellcaster.

YOU DON'T COUNT!!


Poor Elan.

I have a strong feeling that this is a plot point. The Order is going into the defenses of a paranoid illusionist, who expects to be betrayed by paladins and wizards and druids and such. Elan "doesn't count?" That may be important.

[Vinsfeld]

Is Elan crying on panel 2?

[FlawedParadigm]

Belkar: Demonstrating more insight into other people's character motivations than we thought. Still not sure if advocating continuing a suicide mission is demonstrating wisdom, though. Roy's plan to leave and focus on seeking more and stronger allies seemed the better one to me.

The problem with it being the better plan is that, barring perhaps the two adventurers Durkon found in OtOotPCs - which may have been a one panel throwaway joke - and the possibility that Serini might still be alive somewhere, I'm not sure higher level good guys exist anywhere. The only one we knew of for certain (Miko) is dead and gone, and would never have worked with the Order anyhow. O-Chul seems to be a similar level, but he'd still need to work with the Order. He couldn't face all this on his own.

[Apricot]

Also, don't they have any consumables that can help Belkar? Roy might detest him and his speech but he's one of their last remaining assets

It would have to be a Scroll of Restoration or some kind of potion not exactly contained within the rules (a la Miko's Cure Critical Wounds). They're not guaranteed to have one, and even if they do, Roy's not exactly in a rational frame of mind right now. If they have something like that, it'll come up in the next strip or two. Otherwise, Belkar will continue to be useless.

[Kish]

Also, don't they have any consumables that can help Belkar?

I don't get why people keep posting some variation on, "Why aren't they doing something for Belkar before they move on?" Please don't take this personally, snikrept, you're just the latest one to have posted.

They can't. Constitution drain is serious business. Restoration is a fourth level cleric or paladin spell. It is not something made in potion form without house-ruling. Despite what you may have heard about wands of Cure Wounds, adventuring parties do not normally consider a cleric an optional extra. Welcome to why.

[Shatteredtower]

In the middle of his lecture rant, Belkar says, "Bring your sister, too," when suggesting hiding with Celia.

Was he being considerate of the welfare of Roy's family or creepy? He'd expressed possible interest in her before, at least when it came to deciding whether it was worth his time to help rescue her.

[jaybird]

                       _______
  We're with you.   --/       \
                      |        |-- [Say nothing]
   Suck it up!      --\       /
                       -------

[Deepbluediver]

I honestly can't say whether Belkar's doing harm or good.

He's keeping the Order moving forward, that's what.

I find it most interesting when Belkar says "The get-the-hell-out-of-here part I can get behind", and if he had just kept his trap shut, thats PROBABLY what would have happened. But Belkar's "quictcher bitchin" speech instead convinced Roy to keep going.

Right now I'm wondering if this was intentional, intentional-but-subconcious, or just Belkar just not being able to see what actions his words would provoke. All three are probably plausible, and each might have at least one entirely different motivation behind it that could indicate any number of things.


Of course, the real question that I know where all wondering is, where the eff is V? If s/he is still in that tunnel, waiting for a zombie mummy to come munch his/er brains, s/he's gonna be waiting an awful long time (since Roy bisected most of them).

[busterswd]

Uh...huh.

Wow, great little Belkar moment there. Also, very happy that the Giant knows pacing; I'm dying to know what happens next after this one.

[SavageWombat]

In the middle of his lecture rant, Belkar says, "Bring your sister, too," when suggesting hiding with Celia.

Was he being considerate of the welfare of Roy's family or creepy? He'd expressed possible interest in her before, at least when it came to deciding whether it was worth his time to help rescue her.

It's a little subtle for Belkar, so I may be misreading - but he's reminding Roy that it's not just his life on the line if the world goes to hell, but the life of people he cares for more than anything.