Give them a flint lock and...

[scurv]

And the players are then trying to design a M1 Carbine with ammunition. To bad the glare does not work over the phone.

<edit>
although this site is useful for the pirates campaign i am working
http://www.thepiratesrealm.com/pirate%20weapons.html

[Gavinfoxx]

What system is this?

[scurv]

Blending 2nd edition to work in a pirates setting. I am permitting gun powder, cannons and flintlock type guns. But as they say, give them an inch and they will take a mile.
Although considering this is a kill it with fire group. I am kinda wondering how long till they brain fart and fireball in the munitions hold.

[Gavinfoxx]

So 2nd edition what?

[scurv]

2nd edition d&d.....But the post is more a sigh at the mentality of people in regards to being given an inch and taking a mile.

[tyckspoon]

And the players are then trying to design a M1 Carbine with ammunition. To bad the glare does not work over the phone.

<edit>
although this site is useful for the pirates campaign i am working
http://www.thepiratesrealm.com/pirate%20weapons.html

Eh. I'd let them try. Figure attempting a modern-style weapon with flintlock-era gunsmithing and powder blending understanding gives you about a 50/50 of hopelessly fouling the weapon after a shot or two or of having it explode in their hands. Good times either way >.>

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, the best you can do at a certain level of technology is generally... that level of technology...

if they want repeating fire, build a ribaldequin (like 50 barrels, lol).

[NikitaDarkstar]

Blending 2nd edition to work in a pirates setting. I am permitting gun powder, cannons and flintlock type guns. But as they say, give them an inch and they will take a mile.
Although considering this is a kill it with fire group. I am kinda wondering how long till they brain fart and fireball in the munitions hold.

Well they could make some interesting weapons if they mixed equal amounts of barrels, bullets, gunpowder, and fire... at a safe distance. It won't exactly be what they're going for, but it would have a similar effect... and hopefully launch an equal, or greater, amount of bullets at the enemy.

Okay, yhea, I might be that type of player at times. And what do you mean fire isn't the answer to everything?!

[scurv]

Well, I think I am going to tell them that they need to actually fire a gun in combat before they can think about remaking them. Besides I tend to limit PC's doing major inventions until after they are level 10ish, and have something comparable to the experience, time and resources to research, development and all that.. That and quite frankly I want to see what these simulations of muzzle loaded combat rounds look like and the tactics the players evolve with them.

That and they had best be devoting their pc's attention to things like learning to sail a ship, Maybe a little fishing, Navigation. And the fine arts of piracy of ship to ship combat and boarding party tactics.

[nobodez]

If they want a repeating firearm, point them to the Puckle Gun, as it's a nice flintlock, a bit complicated, but still technically a "machine gun".

[TheThan]

Is that the best they've got?
My players are trying to build a steam powered super robot that’s amphibious. it uses Cannons and a giant crane for combat. One of them wants to power it with a cortex has been imprinted with the memories of one of the player’s dead wife.

It’s called the Fat Neal.

If anything they’re ambitious. But what’s scary, is that they built their characters to be able to actually DO it.


here's basically what they're building, only more ridiculous.
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine...ossals/galleon

[Premier]

Advice to the OP: take responsibility for the campaign you run. Decide whether or not you you want rapid-fire firearms to appear in the game. If yes, your players have just given you the munition for an entire campaign arc: first they hear of legends of a notorious pirate who died a hundred years ago, and who allegedly had an enchanted musket that could shoot dozens of bullets without reloading. Next, they go in search of the pirate's tomb and/or treasure, and after many adventures find the rusted-to-uselesness weapon. So next they need to find a master gunsmith who can actually figure out how it worked and can make a new one based on the blueprints. The one man (or gnome or whatever) who could do it is, of course, captured/imprisoned/some adventure hook. They get him, but he says he'll need some highly specific, hard to acquire components. See? A whole bunch of adventuring.

If you don't want automatic weapons in your game, that's even simpler: you just don't have them. One, the PCs are not smart enough to even realise the possibility of creating a weapon so much more advanced than the rest of the setting. Even if they have an INT of 18, it's just too many centuries of difference. Two, it's a fantasy world with gods and magic. For all they know, chemistry and engineering works not because "molecules" bind the same way as in our universe, but because the Gods of Alchemy and Craftsmanship have personally decreed that certain reaction and certain physical processes should happen in a certain way. And guess what? They don't want a submachinegun.

[Khedrac]

Advice to the OP: take responsibility for the campaign you run.

This

Also, remember that in a magic-based setting physics simply does not work as it does in the real world. If alchemy works then chemistry does not, pretty much by definition!

If it's not a magic-based world then I suppose you can let the players try to make weaponry advances not thought of at the time, but try to look up what the drawbacks were int he day, or post in places like the Real World Weapons and Armour Q&A thread.
They want multiple-barrelled cannon? - OK - but have they proof-tested every barrel? If not expect some to explode, warping the others.
They have? - OK then how long are the waiting between shots? - fire too fast for too long and the residual heat int he cannon's barrel will detonate the powder for the next charge whilst it is being loaded...

[Alejandro]

Have you ever asked your players if they want to play a game that has more modern firearms? Maybe they want to play Shadowrun. :)

Otherwise, don't forget the spell Protection from Normal Missiles. Works great no matter how many bullets!

Edit: now that I think about it, it's kind of funny. Adventurer 1 has an eight shot carbine loaded with 30.06. Adventurer 2 shoots magic missiles from his hand that can kill you and never miss. Who's scarier? Neither, really.

[Doug Lampert]

If you don't want automatic weapons in your game, that's even simpler: you just don't have them. One, the PCs are not smart enough to even realise the possibility of creating a weapon so much more advanced than the rest of the setting. Even if they have an INT of 18, it's just too many centuries of difference. Two, it's a fantasy world with gods and magic. For all they know, chemistry and engineering works not because "molecules" bind the same way as in our universe, but because the Gods of Alchemy and Craftsmanship have personally decreed that certain reaction and certain physical processes should happen in a certain way. And guess what? They don't want a submachinegun.

You don't even need the fantasy excuse. As a previous poster pointed out, IT"S BLACK POWDER! And probably not very good black powder. If you had MODERN machining precision and metals to make the gun out of it would STILL be likely to foul or blow up in your hands if you tried rapid fire for any length of time.

But of course you DON'T have modern metals and machining. Which means it woun't even work that well. A flintlock WAS precision high engineering for its day, they simply couldn't MAKE the metal parts for anything much better.

You don't have metal cartriges, and you have no way to draw them.

You don't have primers, and you have no way to make them, so if you DID have metal cartriges you couldn't get them to work.

I could keep going. If they were trying to invent the Minee ball then I'd have trouble coming up with reasons why it wouldn't work, the minee ball COULD have been invented well before flintlocks were, and it's a major step up. But something like a modern smokeless powder firearm, "It costs 50,000 GP to even try to have those parts crafted."

Later: "It blows up in your hands on the third shot, take double firearms damage".

Seriously. This is the sort of thing suggested by people who have absolutely no idea how technology works.

[Jay R]

The problem with manufacturing is the ability to machine identical items. When Samuel Colt made the first revolvers in the 1830s, a crucial tool was precise machining.

He went to a meeting in England, and what impressed all the other inventors wasn't the ability to fire six bullets from one gun, but the fact that he took apart six pistols, used parts selected randomly from each, put together a pistol, and it worked.

The fact that the parts were interchangeable was astounding to 19th century engineers.

So one of the tools they will need, if they are planning to make more than one or two, is a level of precision that nobody in their current world has even considered before. Let's say a minimum of twenty years of full-time design and engineering work to discover what's needed. Then many years work to perfect it.

Secondly, are they trying to make cartridges? Or are they retaining the aspect of loading powder and a ball for each shot? If they want cartridges, then the flintlock gives absolutely no clue about the mechanical or chemical issues involved. (Since it's entirely enclosed, they need a small cap of contact explosive that burns without air to light the powder. Then they need a way to attach the contact explosive to the inside of the cartridge without any sharp contact (or it goes off immediately). Once the chemical problems of the contact explosive are worked out (10-50 years after they discover the idea of a contact explosive), and the design of the cartridge is developed (five to ten years full-time experimentation after the idea is fully formed), then they will need to design a loading machine.

Engineering and scientific advances are not created in a month or two by adventurers in their spare time. (Sometimes they can come up with a new idea that can be created with the current level of engineering, but that's not what's going on here.)

[Eldan]

If they really want to, maybe let them invent something like a pepperbox gun? That's a gun with multiple barrels which are loaded, then fired one after the other. It would allow them to fire multiple shots, and there were flintlock pepperboxes.

[Alejandro]

The problem with manufacturing is the ability to machine identical items. When Samuel Colt made the first revolvers in the 1830s, a crucial tool was precise machining.

He went to a meeting in England, and what impressed all the other inventors wasn't the ability to fire six bullets from one gun, but the fact that he took apart six pistols, used parts selected randomly from each, put together a pistol, and it worked.

The fact that the parts were interchangeable was astounding to 19th century engineers.

So one of the tools they will need, if they are planning to make more than one or two, is a level of precision that nobody in their current world has even considered before. Let's say a minimum of twenty years of full-time design and engineering work to discover what's needed. Then many years work to perfect it.

Secondly, are they trying to make cartridges? Or are they retaining the aspect of loading powder and a ball for each shot? If they want cartridges, then the flintlock gives absolutely no clue about the mechanical or chemical issues involved. (Since it's entirely enclosed, they need a small cap of contact explosive that burns without air to light the powder. Then they need a way to attach the contact explosive to the inside of the cartridge without any sharp contact (or it goes off immediately). Once the chemical problems of the contact explosive are worked out (10-50 years after they discover the idea of a contact explosive), and the design of the cartridge is developed (five to ten years full-time experimentation after the idea is fully formed), then they will need to design a loading machine.

Engineering and scientific advances are not created in a month or two by adventurers in their spare time. (Sometimes they can come up with a new idea that can be created with the current level of engineering, but that's not what's going on here.)

Eli Whitney did something similar with ten rifles, in front of the US Congress. They were impressed. To be fair, though, Eli kind of cheated, the ten guns were extremely carefully made and prepped ahead of time to have exactly matching parts. :)

[Doug Lampert]

The problem with manufacturing is the ability to machine identical items. When Samuel Colt made the first revolvers in the 1830s, a crucial tool was precise machining.

...

Engineering and scientific advances are not created in a month or two by adventurers in their spare time. (Sometimes they can come up with a new idea that can be created with the current level of engineering, but that's not what's going on here.)

Truth: Today we take it as ROUTINE to have metal parts machined down to 0.001 inch tollerances. Any really good machine shop can churn them out in job lots. This is not normal historically. Not even close. Cheap routine hardware is at 0.01" or so tolerances.

The Minee ball is the only "month or two in their spare time" level of improvement available on a flintlock if you have flintlock era tech.

(Ring bayonettes are also possible if you can manage a sturdy enough mounting ring, which requires pretty good steel and engineering tolerance, so late flintlock era you can manage that too.)

You can also make a multibarrel gun (as others have mentioned), which mostly means flatly giving up on actually reloading in combat (abut then you aren't reloading anyway on the time scale of D&D combat).

Or you can carry multiple guns, with wheellocks and flintlocks both the pistols often came in sets so you could fire and draw another.

The Breachloading Rifle was invented prior to the American Revolution, tested, field tested by one British infantry company, and then rejected because of various problems. It simply couldn't be made to work well at that time well over 100 years after the flintlock became common.

The Brown Bess remained the British standard issue firearm till 1832. By which time machining had advanced to where better weapons were possible.

[nobodez]

To those talking of machining and tolerances.

The OP said this was an AD&D 2E game. While I only play d20, I'm pretty sure that Fabricate didn't change that much from 2E to 3E, and thus should be able to replicate the machine shop needed to produce the parts.

I still support the idea of giving them actual, historical, multi-shot firearms that match the tech level rather than saying they can't have any. Both the Puckle and the Pepperbox are dead end technologies, but work well within the flint-lock tech level.

[Trekkin]

I've had players try to pull this kind of stuff on me many times; it's endemic to running a game in a school full of engineers. Here's how I've learned to resolve players wanting to invent modern technology, assuming you're okay with it existing as an artifact:

1. Recognize that they aren't being totally illogical here. If flintlocks are possible, well, the same physical laws mean a carbine is theoretically possible. Whether they have the technology to put it together is another matter, but I find letting them have the theory is a good starting point. Now, if they're wanting fusion rockets, that's another matter entirely, but this isn't an unreasonable extrapolation.

2. Outline the gaps in technology that prevent them building one of these. The posters above me have done so handily. It might help to narrow it down to two or three key enabling technologies; I usually do one per player pushing for whatever they want. Here, it sounds like gunpowder, machining, and metallurgy are a good start.

3. Decide what's in your setting to cheat solutions to these problems. Maybe mithril can substitute for blue steel, or maybe there's some magical carbon-injecting spell. Maybe there's a force bolt spell that can be enchanted into bullet casings, or some hermit alchemist cracked how to make a good enough powder. What's the DC to machine parts to these tolerances?

4. It gets a little fuzzy here, but let them know the challenges and where to research for the solutions. Treat it like an adventure hook, make it challenging enough that it's not unbalancing when they finish, and I at least have found it's relatively easy to weave into the adventure that already exists. If they take a mile when you give them an inch, let them have it -- and make them walk it.

5. This is critical. Let them employ each individual new thing on its own. Mitril? Let 'em make mithril swords. Let them throw alchemists' fire with the new formula. Let them fabricate really smooth cannonballs and get a range advantage.

Eventually, it becomes less 'trying to make new technology' and more 'questing for a magical artifact, piece by piece'. Because by the time they're cramming alchemy into magic materials made with magically-assisted smithing, well...

And when they get done making it? Have people try to steal it from them, or at least their notes on it. They end up legends, so let them deal with legendary status.

[Scow2]

To those talking of machining and tolerances.

The OP said this was an AD&D 2E game. While I only play d20, I'm pretty sure that Fabricate didn't change that much from 2E to 3E, and thus should be able to replicate the machine shop needed to produce the parts.

I still support the idea of giving them actual, historical, multi-shot firearms that match the tech level rather than saying they can't have any. Both the Puckle and the Pepperbox are dead end technologies, but work well within the flint-lock tech level.

Being able to pull off those kinds of tolerances requires a Craft check.

[Slipperychicken]

Just say the magic and technology isn't good enough to do it yet.


There is one thing I could see plausibly coming out of it. There was this one contraption (Asian in origin, I think), mounted on a cart, which consisted of several dozen barrels loaded and lined up next to one another, and I think they fired explosive/flammable rockets. It had an impressive rate of fire, but was wildly inaccurate and took a considerable time to reload.

[Lord Torath]

To those talking of machining and tolerances.

The OP said this was an AD&D 2E game. While I only play d20, I'm pretty sure that Fabricate didn't change that much from 2E to 3E, and thus should be able to replicate the machine shop needed to produce the parts.

There is no "Fabricate" in 2nd Edition. There are Blacksmith, Armorer, and Weaponsmith. Also Bowyer/Fletcher, and Carpentry, Tailor, Cobbler, and a few other 'fabrication' NWPs. But nothing with any kind of repeatability or precision for the kind of work required for their proposed weapons. The technology is simply too far out of their reach.

I agree with the dual-barrelled musket/Flintlock idea, but keep the other stuff out of their reach.

[Scow2]

There is no "Fabricate" in 2nd Edition. There are Blacksmith, Armorer, and Weaponsmith. Also Bowyer/Fletcher, and Carpentry, Tailor, Cobbler, and a few other 'fabrication' NWPs. But nothing with any kind of repeatability or precision for the kind of work required for their proposed weapons. The technology is simply too far out of their reach.

I agree with the dual-barrelled musket/Flintlock idea, but keep the other stuff out of their reach.

We're talking magic spells here, not Skill/profession checks.

[Gavinfoxx]

I already said, 'Use a Ribaldequin', which is 50 musket barrels lined up next to one another on a cart...

[Eldan]

There is no "Fabricate" in 2nd Edition. There are Blacksmith, Armorer, and Weaponsmith. Also Bowyer/Fletcher, and Carpentry, Tailor, Cobbler, and a few other 'fabrication' NWPs. But nothing with any kind of repeatability or precision for the kind of work required for their proposed weapons. The technology is simply too far out of their reach.

I agree with the dual-barrelled musket/Flintlock idea, but keep the other stuff out of their reach.

Fabricate is a mid-level spell in 3.5 that produces manufactured goods of pretty much any kind. It might exist in AD&D as well.

[SowZ]

Is that the best they've got?
My players are trying to build a steam powered super robot that’s amphibious. it uses Cannons and a giant crane for combat. One of them wants to power it with a cortex has been imprinted with the memories of one of the player’s dead wife.

Does said character look like this?
http://es.evangelion.wikia.com/wiki/...file=Gendo.jpg

[scurv]

As I said, If they want a chance at that, It will require at least level 10, And the needed materials and supplies. And quite frankly It is most likely not going to happen. And quite frankly I told them that if it was more then just a hint of metaness in how they come up with the inspiration, I will give their pc's a 50% EXP tax for two levels.

The setting is a light magic campaign, Mostly human with other races that are withdrawing into their own lands. with
aprox 15th-ish century tech. That is muzzle loader type weapons, And cannons. And quite frankly firearms are very powerful. But it is two rounds to load till level 5. Not very accurate (neg 4 to hit with more of a penalty if their target is actively moving) No guarantee that it will actually fire and in a world with spells, One MIGHT be somewhat concerned with carrying black powder on their person. Although in this case The firearms will deal 10d8 damage. but unless it is a head shot magic healing with in two rounds can save the person. (hp's will stop going down at neg 10)

I want it to be a lethal weapon. But I want to have magical healing viable to offset a weapon that can be fatal to a high level. I have some issues with it, But it seems at first and second glance to be a viable solution.


As for magical fabrication, Not going to happen.
As for precision fabrication. If they want to start on that road at level 10, They are welcome to try.

As a note fabricate is a 5th level wizards spell in second edition. But As I said it is not going to work unless said tech is already common place in the world.

[Deffers]

I dunno. I always like the stories of the dude who manages to kill a lich at level one using a grand piano and an amorous camel.

I'd say if they come up with a sufficiently outlandish way to come up with it before level ten (general guideline is: if you cannot stop laughing after hearing it) I'd let 'em have it.

Also, consider something (although completely fantasy-esque) like the guns in Dishonored. The normal ones that guards have are basically a weird sort of break-open musket pistol (they have a very clean propellant made of magical whale). The semi-automatic one is made by an utterly mad inventor using clockworks and possibly magic from a dark god (the idea itself certainly came from this dark god). That's kinda the level they better be reaching for to advance technology by a few centuries for the sake of power.