OOTS #883 - The Discussion Thread

[HandofShadows]

Well, let's hope that Qarr's dumb enough to:

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tell V that Durkon has died while V was off sobbing. That might be just the thing to make V man/woman-up and get back in the game.

I think he is that stupid. He likes to torment people, V inparticular.

[FlawedParadigm]

*pssst* Check the White Text

I saw the white text. It's still not funny. Hasn't been for years. I'm fine with Rich's decision not to reveal whatever there is to reveal in the matter, but I assure you if I could filter out every post that mentions it at all without flat-out not reading the forum at all, I would. Anything useful that might have been said on the matter was said years ago, and it's only ever still funny in-comic. There is no fruitful discussion left to be had of it, at least not for someone who's been following since I was linked to #37 back in...2004, I think? Of course we still get regular threads about Miko, too, and she was only ever a part of the plot for a little under a third of the strips we now have (counting from 200, not 120, because there were only a couple of strips between 120 and 200 that involved her), and hasn't been at all relevant for over half the strip's run now.

Dead horses have no rest here. Which, I suppose, is somewhat fitting, as neither do dead men like Xykon.

[Waspinator]

Yeah, I don't think Nale is armed. It's on the ground here and we don't see anyone pick it up in the next few strips.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html

[chorpler]

Now, is that Vaarusvius calling Qarr a s.o.b. in the last panel?

If so, wow. I thought only middle-schoolers knew that insult. Kudos to the giant if that's what he meant.

No, Qarr's words (and probably Blackwing's "defense" as well) are just making Vaarsuvius cry.

[Wou]

We've never seen anyone picking up their weapons, so they may be still laying there, at some point at the patch connecting Nales party and OOTS/gate position. So Nale will most likely be at that point soon, and nothing stops him from picking them up.
Unless Haley took care of the loot, which seems likely, but was never showed or mentioned.

[The Succubus]

Thanks Giant!

Sabine is practicing her sloth.

The Celestial Tree sort or the other sort?

[davidbofinger]

vampire Durkon is so cute

May his beard be ever soaked in blood rather than ale.

[Doctor Foreman]

2. If V *is* history's worst mass murderer, then Haerta must have never actually used Familiacide. Because even if she had also only used it once like V, I'm pretty sure her murder count from general "becoming an epic level necromancer" out takes dwarfs V's general murder count to date.

Not necessarily. Note that no one on the continent seems to have really caught on to the fact of a singular cause to all the sudden, mysterious deaths. It's conceivable that disease alone would have a higher per annum death rate.

Additionally, we're dealing with two species known for interbreeding with others. Had Haerta targeted a species we're less familiar with - or employed it on another plane of existence - the main characters wouldn't have had any reason to know about it (and by extension, neither would we).

To cap it all off, being medieval fantasy, a lot of the world's history is probably lost to the mortal races - or at least has been twisted into myth. We don't know the time period to which Haerta is/was native; her actions at the time could have been ascribed to angry deities or some such.

[Mantine]

Tell you what, you read the vampire template entry, particularly the part where it explicitly says that vampire clerics can still cast spells

I know it's a bit late, but I'll just point out that the line in question doesn't explicitly say anything, it just omits to discuss the matter, entirely.
While it's true that atheist clerics can exist, considering how's specifically mentioned that a cleric will "lose all spellcasting power" due to "grossly violating the codes of conduct of his patron deity" (and we know Durkon's no atheist) it's a legitimate call that his huge shift of alignment/undeath would have made him lose Thor's approval and thus his spellcasting powers.

Not that I'm really interested either way, but for the sake of clarity: just because atheist clerics can exist doesn't make all other clerics exempt from their deity's judgement.

[Bedinsis]

It was a bit sweet that Blackwings didn't bother to defend himself against the accusation of being a dim-witted bird, instead focusing on what's the most fragile thing in the situation at hand, i.e. Vaarsuvius' feelings.

[hobo386]

(Not that it matters, but) My theory was that Haerta accidentally killed herself with familicide. It seems like it would be pretty easy to do.

[Leirus]

(Not that it matters, but) My theory was that Haerta accidentally killed herself with familicide. It seems like it would be pretty easy to do.

Well, maybe we will still get to know for sure. Her soul was flying around last time we saw her, and she would make an awesome villiain.

[factotum]

Not that I'm really interested either way, but for the sake of clarity: just because atheist clerics can exist doesn't make all other clerics exempt from their deity's judgement.

I just did a search through the SRD entry on clerics, and it makes no mention of what happens if a cleric changes deity--so can't we just assume Durkon now gets his powers through Nergal?

[EDIT] Also, something just occurred to me--Nale said he had four spellcasters under him, but I only count three. Unless he's counting himself, but that would be a bit odd!

[Water_Bear]

I just did a search through the SRD entry on clerics, and it makes no mention of what happens if a cleric changes deity--so can't we just assume Durkon now gets his powers through Nergal?

They could come from being a Vampire Cleric (kind of a special case), or even just a generic devotion to Evil. Until we see him prepare more spells, it will be hard to pin him down on exactly what cosmic force he's tapping these days.

[EDIT] Also, something just occurred to me--Nale said he had four spellcasters under him, but I only count three. Unless he's counting himself, but that would be a bit odd!

Technically he is under his own command, but that would be a really bizarre distinction to make.

[gorocz]

Your sad devotion to those ancient strips is... impressive. I always forget details like that..

Sad devotion? I just have a good memory and this is a fairly important detail... Ancient strip? It's only 50 strips, about 14 months, old...
----

It was predicted on the first page:


Good rule of thumb for this site: unless you are a post on the first or second page of a comic's thread, odds are good that somebody else has already predicted your prediction.

Oh damn, I was sure I read it all, I must've phased out at the offer part

[Gitman00]

I predict that the OoTS will pull off a come-from-behind victory due to the return of V and some brilliant tactics from Roy, if only because things are so obviously stacked against them.

[talkamancer]

The only thing worse than the usual irrelevant rules pedantry is incorrect irrelevant rules pedantry.

Can I sig that please ?

[zimmerwald1915]

I predict that the OoTS will pull off a come-from-behind victory due to the return of V and some brilliant tactics from Roy, if only because things are so obviously stacked against them.

Never going to happen; Vaarsuvius isn't allowed to solve problems

[pjie2]

This Familicide guff has gone on too long. The Giant's explanation is perfectly simple:

1) Kill all living ancestors and descendants of the original target
2) Kill all living ancestors and descendants of anyone killed by step (1)

Yes, the spell does in some sense ignore dead links, but there has to be at least one live link in the chain.

If the spell is cast on entity X, then entity Y will be killed in step 1 if they are a direct relative of X. Y will be killed in step 2 if (and only if) X and Y share a currently-living relative to act as a "waypoint" for the spell.

Given human lifespans, it really wouldn't go that far at all. Try it on as a thought exercise with your own families if you don't believe me.

In my case the total death toll would be only 4. Even if cast 5 years ago when my parents were alive, that would only increase the toll to 9. I don't think there's any time in my life when the toll would have been more than about 20 - all my grandparents were dead before my son was born, which limits things somewhat.

[deworde]

Alright, another chance for Nale to royally screw things up, but... what's Tarquin up to?

[deworde]

Also, wouldn't the fact that Durkon can summon fiends mean he's chosen a new god?

[Kish]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Anyone else who is about to go, "Huh? How can Durkon still cast spells?" scroll down to the section on vampire clerics, and note the total lack of the words "loses spellcasting ability."

[sam79]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Anyone else who is about to go, "Huh? How can Durkon still cast spells?" scroll down to the section on vampire clerics, and note the total lack of the words "loses spellcasting ability."

Got it. Mechanically speaking. Sort of.

What I don't get is: Thor gives Durkon his spells. We've seen this in comic. I can see how spells that Durkon had prepared before being vamped would still be available for him to cast (apart from his domain ones, and I suppose any others which are not able to be used by Evil characters, which I guess are lost). But the spell he cast in this strip is, what, Summon Fiend or something? Surely Thor didn't give him that, nor has he had time to prepare his spells again since being vamped.

Or is it just that the Summon Planer Ally (?) spell that he already had prepared (I think?) now brings him an Evil beastie and not a Good one?

ETA

Given human lifespans, it really wouldn't go that far at all. Try it on as a thought exercise with your own families if you don't believe me.

In my case the total death toll would be only 4. Even if cast 5 years ago when my parents were alive, that would only increase the toll to 9. I don't think there's any time in my life when the toll would have been more than about 20 - all my grandparents were dead before my son was born, which limits things somewhat.

Interesting idea. There should be an app for that. I just cast Familicide on my Gran (Not really. You know what I mean). I'm not from a huge family (my Gran has two living siblings, two children and six grandchildren), but stage 1 has already taking out people I've barely even heard of in my family. 25 or so. I don't have nearly enough of a graps of my family tree to count up stage 2, unfortunately.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Any one besides me think Qarr has returned to collect V's first part of the bargain? As in one of the IFCC guys is going to possess him?

[The Succubus]

Any one besides me think Qarr has returned to collect V's first part of the bargain? As in one of the IFCC guys is going to possess him?

That'd be my thought. We don't see the IFCC on or near the couch, which is where we've seen them consistently before and Qarr must be aware that there's an high probability that V would attempt to vaporise him if ze ever saw him again. He must have a pretty good reason to risk appearing before V, or a reason to feel safe.

[rockdeworld]

Thanks!

Edited because I misread it originally; I've been up too late for too many days, I guess. What I meant was, I would not be surprised if the three gentlemen downstairs, who clearly have an agenda in this area, have a gaggle of fiends on hand who have been coerced or ordered or whatever, to do whatever they're told if they're summoned.

For what it's worth, if Planar Ally was used, they were called and not summoned. The difference: called creatures can die, summoned creatures just *poof* away.

SMIX would expire in less than 2 minutes and the monster would poof. It's possible they'll engage OOTS in that window, but not worth the risk - I would assume this is a longer duration spell eg Planar Ally.

Good point. It probably is Planar Ally.

[Mantine]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Anyone else who is about to go, "Huh? How can Durkon still cast spells?" scroll down to the section on vampire clerics, and note the total lack of the words "loses spellcasting ability."

Once again, omission doesn't make facts, it just leaves things like that: vacant.
If we are to consider solid, unambiguously written rules, we should seek the "violating your deity's code will strip you of spellcasting" thing, and turning evil definitely seems a code violation for a good-aligned god.

Edit: and I'll also add, we should always keep in mind that the link in question is about the VAMPIRE template, not the infinite ramifications that said template may bring when joined with other classes.
THAT part of the story should be sorted out by using the class' own descriptor and rules, which in case of clerics very specifically says how a cleric who "strayed from its deity's path" will lose his powers (unless atheist, which is something they got to be BEFORE the stray, not after, otherwise the whole ex-cleric thing would have no reason to exist).

[gerryq]

As to the strip in general, I think it's safe to say we're finally in the endgame now. There's still probably a ways to go for everything to resolve, but the stage is set for everyone's final plans or moves to come to fruition.

You're forgetting Kreegan's, a.k.a. Checkov's Gate. That's where it will end, I believe. (Or in the new world beyond the Rift.)

[Kish]

Once again, omission doesn't make facts, it just leaves things like that: vacant.

That would be a compelling argument if there was no "vampire clerics" section of the Vampire entry.

But there is. And it says "Loses the Turn Undead ability, gains the Rebuke Undead ability, switches to two of these four domains." You're not basing your argument on omission, you're basing it on an unambiguous presence that isn't what you'd prefer to be there.

[Mantine]

That would be a compelling argument if there was no "vampire clerics" section of the Vampire entry.

Read the edit.
The reason why there's no mention of that in the vampire entry is because the Cleric template already very clearly addressed it.
They couldn't put a general "and will lose spellcasting powers" because of atheist and evil-aligned clerics, hence the reason they left it to the Cleric template "code of conduct" rules to clear such situational event out.