OOTS #883 - The Discussion Thread

[screwtape]

I just hope the resolution doesn't turn out to be a deus ex machina thing.

I'm not optimistic. V's evaded death at least twice via DeM already. Both times really bothered me.

[Smolder]

I dunno. The MITD's sudden use of magic to save V and O was more of a Chekhov's Gun than a DeM. It was telegraphed sufficiently in advance. We knew MITD was more powerful than advertised, and that he wanted to help O-chul somehow.

[RNGgod]

I agree. Calling the scene with the MitD, V, and O-Chul a deus ex machina is just trying to cheapen a very dramatic moment that the story had been building up to for an entire book. It's really almost rude.

[zimmerwald1915]

I agree. Calling the scene with the MitD, V, and O-Chul a deus ex machina is just trying to cheapen a very dramatic moment that the story had been building up to for an entire book. It's really almost rude.

To be fair, screwtape never referred to the "Escape" scene. He could easily have been referring to, say, strips 352 and strip 441. I don't personally believe that V was saved by Deus Ex Machina in these strips, because in both cases, a simple defensive casting of invisibility was all V would have needed to escape, but I could see why someone else would believe that she was.

[Forikroder]

To be fair, screwtape never referred to the "Escape" scene. He could easily have been referring to, say, strips 352 and strip 441. I don't personally believe that V was saved by Deus Ex Machina in these strips, because in both cases, a simple defensive casting of invisibility was all V would have needed to escape, but I could see why someone else would believe that she was.

with Vs smile in 352 and how he covered his ears you could almost make a case that he was expecting the sonic boom

[Adeptus]

with Vs smile in 352 and how he covered his ears you could almost make a case that he was expecting the sonic boom

That is definitely how I read it. V knew about the weakness to sonic, and is a genius level intellect.

[Kaulguard]

RE: 352, how can the actions of another character be Deus Ex? Unless you argue that ANY cleric action is DeM. (that last bit is a joke)

RE:441, yeah ok, I could see the case made here, but I would contend that to be a true DeM, the author needs to have written himself into a corner and is pulling the DeM out of his anal orifice. That doesn't ring authentic here. My take was that it was written that way deliberately to be the punchline of the joke. Maybe that's stretching it, but if the Deus Ex nature of the solution IS the joke, then that seems an unfair criticism.

[And, no, I'm not a 'The Giant can do no wrong' kind of guy, but the guy does FAAAR more right than he EVER did wrong, so yeah, I usually give him the benefit of the doubt if at all possible.]

[Forikroder]

RE: 352, how can the actions of another character be Deus Ex? Unless you argue that ANY cleric action is DeM. (that last bit is a joke)

because the spell shouldnt be able to do that so people say its a DeM because he re-wrote a spell to save V

(not that i think its a DeM)

[RNGgod]

RE:441, yeah ok, I could see the case made here, but I would contend that to be a true DeM, the author needs to have written himself into a corner and is pulling the DeM out of his anal orifice. That doesn't ring authentic here. My take was that it was written that way deliberately to be the punchline of the joke. Maybe that's stretching it, but if the Deus Ex nature of the solution IS the joke, then that seems an unfair criticism.

Eh, I mean, I'd agree, but this is a strip V him/herself later refers to as a Deus Ex Machina.

[Forikroder]

Eh, I mean, I'd agree, but this is a strip V him/herself later refers to as a Deus Ex Machina.

V could ahve turned invisible and booked it he wasnt in much danger

[Kish]

Would anyone who has the Monster Manual 2 like to weigh in on how effective Forikroder's proposed strategy would have been?

[zimmerwald1915]

Would anyone who has the Monster Manual 2 like to weigh in on how effective Forikroder's proposed strategy would have been?

Here's the Death Knight template:

"Death knight" is a template that can be added to any evil humanoid creature of 6th level or higher (referred to hereafter as the character). The character's type changes to undead. It uses all the character’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Hit Dice: All the character's Hit Dice (current and future) become d12s.
Speed: Same as the character.
AC: The death knight has +5 natural armor, or the character's natural armor, whichever is better.
Attacks: Death knights usually fight with martial weapons, but if disarmed they will use a touch attack.
Damage: The death knight's touch attack uses negative energy to deal damage equal to 1d8 + the death knight's Charisma bonus to living creatures. Each successful touch attack also deals 1 point of Constitution damage. A Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 death knight's HD + death knight's Charisma modifier) reduces the damage by half and negates the Constitution damage. Characters with natural attacks can use their natural weaponry or use the touch attack, as they prefer.
Special Attacks: A death knight retains all the character's special attacks and gains those described below.
Abyssal Blast (Su): Once per day, a death knight can unleash a blast of eldritch fire. The blast fills a 20-foot-radius spread anywhere within a range of 400 feet + 40 feet per HD of the death knight. The blast deals 1d6 points of damage per HD of the death knight (maximum 20d6). Half of the damage is fire damage, but the rest results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to being reduced by protection from elements (fire), fire shield (chill shield), or similar magic. A Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 death knight’s HD + death knight's Charisma modifier) reduces the damage by half.
Fear Aura (Su): Death knights are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil. Creatures of less than 5 HD within 15 feet of a death knight must succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 death knight's HD + death knight's Charisma modifier) or be affected as though by a fear spell cast by a sorcerer of the death knight's level.
Undead Followers: A death knight attracts lesser undead creatures that happen to exist within a 200-mile radius. It may have up to twice its levels in Hit Dice of followers. The followers arrive monthly in the following increments: 1d6 ghouls, 1d4 ghasts, 1d12 medium skeletons, 1d4 wights, or 1d8 medium zombies once per week. These creatures remain in the service of the death knight until destroyed. These creatures are in addition to any undead creatures the death knight might be able to command or rebuke as a class ability.
Spells: A death knight can cast any spells it could while alive, unless alignment restrictions prohibit the casting of a particular spell.
Special Qualities: A death knight retains all the character's
special qualities and gains those described below.
Damage Reduction (Su): A death knight's undead body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 15/+1.
Immunities (Ex): Death knights are immune to cold, electricity, and polymorph in addition to those immunities possessed by undead (see undead traits, below).
Spell Resistance (Su): A death knight gains spell resistance 20 +1 per character’s level beyond 10th.
Summon Mount (Su): A death knight has the ability to summon a mount, typically a nightmare, though it may be of any other species normally
used as a mount. The mount may have no more Hit Dice than half the death knight's levels. If the mount is lost or killed, the death knight may summon another one after a year and a day.
Turn Immunity (Ex): A death knight cannot be turned. It can be banished with holy word, however, just as if it were an evil outsider. (The banished death knight returns to the plane of the evil god it serves.)
Undead Traits: A death knight is immune to mindaffecting effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects. It is not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, or death from massive damage. A death knight cannot be raised, and resurrection works only if it is willing. The creature has darkvision (60-foot range).
Saves: Same as character.
Abilities: A death knight gains +4 to Strength and +2 to both Wisdom and Charisma. Being undead, it has no Constitution score.
Skills: Same as character.
Feats: Same as character.
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground.
Organization: Solitary or troupe (see undead followers, above).
Challenge Rating: Same as character +3.
Treasure: Double standard.
Alignment: Same as character (always evil).
Advancement: Death knights continue to advance in level as per their original class.

I see no particular reason why invisibility would not hide one effectively from a bog standard Death Knight. The only advantage it gains from the template is a +1 to Listen checks from the Wisdom increase. If Vaarsuvius were Good-aligned, the sample Death Knight presented beneath the template could get some use out of its Blackguard detect good ability, but Vaarsuvius is not Good-aligned.

[RNGgod]

Yes, V could have turned invisible. Hence, I agree. But the fact that V, being written by Rich as part of his/her fall-from-grace character arc, referred to it as a deus ex machina, suggests to me that maybe we shouldn't overvalue the "invisibility" option.

[Forikroder]

Yes, V could have turned invisible. Hence, I agree. But the fact that V, being written by Rich as part of his/her fall-from-grace character arc, referred to it as a deus ex machina, suggests to me that maybe we shouldn't overvalue the "invisibility" option.

V was also half insane by that point and not thinking logically just pessimistically

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes, V could have turned invisible. Hence, I agree. But the fact that V, being written by Rich as part of his/her fall-from-grace character arc, referred to it as a deus ex machina, suggests to me that maybe we shouldn't overvalue the "invisibility" option.

We should also consider the possibility that V was wrong in calling her escape a Deus Ex Machina. The fact that she was reading a For Dummies book about literary criticism suggest that she is far from an expert. She certainly doesn't have the intuitive understanding of stories possessed by Elan, or the long experience of Tarquin. She was a novice critic, her judgement was impaired by her self-doubt, and her analysis was wrong.

[RNGgod]

We should also consider the possibility that V was wrong in calling her escape a Deus Ex Machina. The fact that she was reading a For Dummies book about literary criticism suggest that she is far from an expert. She certainly doesn't have the intuitive understanding of stories possessed by Elan, or the long experience of Tarquin. She was a novice critic, her judgement was impaired by her self-doubt, and her analysis was wrong.

Certainly. I guess what I'm trying to suggest is that the overwhelming majority of the time someone calls something in this commic a Deus Ex Machina, I will immediately rise to the defense of said event as something else.

The possibility, of V's escape being one, I just feel, is at least a little higher, so unlike in 99% of DEM complaints, I can see why someone would want to consider it as such.

[Snails]

V was also half insane by that point and not thinking logically just pessimistically

I do find it odd that when a character, who has been doing a lot of ranting lately and is right now doing a lot of ranting, says many obviously untrue things and a few (at best) half true things, people would pick one item out of the trash can and suggest this could be the opinion of the author. Why is V an authority on the mind of the author and not, say, Tarquin or Xykon?

V could have turned Invisible, and safely walked right off the battlement with Feather Fall. We are 99.99999999999999% certain V had that option, and we are 99.9999999999999% certain V could have easily escaped that way. V's life was not in danger to any meaningful degree.

The dragon head is the exact opposite of a DEM: V's short term minor problem was solved in a manner that helped build up a major character issue.

I would further add that it is not even an issue of foreshadowing. OotS has two Running Gags: (1) V trying to overwhelm people with raw magical power and getting humiliated, (2) bizarre falls of things onto people, causing humiliation.

When two Running Gags are intertwined that is called a clever use of Running Gags. To label this a DEM is to fundamentally misunderstand standard tropes.

[Tragak]

I do find it odd that when a character, who has been doing a lot of ranting lately and is right now doing a lot of ranting, says many obviously untrue things and a few (at best) half true things, people would pick one item out of the trash can and suggest this could be the opinion of the author. Why is V an authority on the mind of the author and not, say, Tarquin or Xykon?

V could have turned Invisible, and safely walked right off the battlement with Feather Fall. We are 99.99999999999999% certain V had that option, and we are 99.9999999999999% certain V could have easily escaped that way. V's life was not in danger to any meaningful degree.

The dragon head is the exact opposite of a DEM: V's short term minor problem was solved in a manner that helped build up a major character issue.

I would further add that it is not even an issue of foreshadowing. OotS has two Running Gags: (1) V trying to overwhelm people with raw magical power and getting humiliated, (2) bizarre falls of things onto people, causing humiliation.

When two Running Gags are intertwined that is called a clever use of Running Gags. To label this a DEM is to fundamentally misunderstand standard tropes.

See now that makes too much sense.

[F.Harr]

I dunno. The MITD's sudden use of magic to save V and O was more of a Chekhov's Gun than a DeM. It was telegraphed sufficiently in advance. We knew MITD was more powerful than advertised, and that he wanted to help O-chul somehow.

I'd thought of it more as charactor development for the MitD (Or, Mittie)

Here's the Death Knight template

A charisma bonus to attacks? It's like it's an evil undead Dashing Swordsman. Also, as for the escape from sudden death, firstly, it was FUNNY. You get a pass on DeM if it's funny. Also, V is all about power and force. Invisibility didn't accure to them until there were no other options because that's what V's about. It was in-character.

In the sense that he's allowing Nale to command the party without his interference. I agree that Tarquin is manipulating Nale, but Nale doesn't seem to be aware.

That's because Tarquin's GOOD at manipulating.

I would just like to say that I love how Rich draws Tarquin pacing with his hand(s) behind his back. Tarquin's a stick figure, but it's amazing how that little touch makes his character.

Ain't it just so?

[Amphiox]

I do find it odd that when a character, who has been doing a lot of ranting lately and is right now doing a lot of ranting, says many obviously untrue things and a few (at best) half true things, people would pick one item out of the trash can and suggest this could be the opinion of the author. Why is V an authority on the mind of the author and not, say, Tarquin or Xykon?

V could have turned Invisible, and safely walked right off the battlement with Feather Fall. We are 99.99999999999999% certain V had that option, and we are 99.9999999999999% certain V could have easily escaped that way. V's life was not in danger to any meaningful degree.

The dragon head is the exact opposite of a DEM: V's short term minor problem was solved in a manner that helped build up a major character issue.

I would further add that it is not even an issue of foreshadowing. OotS has two Running Gags: (1) V trying to overwhelm people with raw magical power and getting humiliated, (2) bizarre falls of things onto people, causing humiliation.

When two Running Gags are intertwined that is called a clever use of Running Gags. To label this a DEM is to fundamentally misunderstand standard tropes.

1. And only a few strips later V escapes doing pretty much exactly that. Without even the feather-fall.

2. People tend to be way too trigger-happy calling DEMs. DEM is a retrospective trope. You can't actually identify them until a work is finished and you get to look back over the whole thing and trace all the plot threads from introduction to resolution. That's why it has traditionally been an ending trope.

[Deepfriedice]

2. People tend to be way too trigger-happy calling DEMs. DEM is a retrospective trope. You can't actually identify them until a work is finished and you get to look back over the whole thing and trace all the plot threads from introduction to resolution. That's why it has traditionally been an ending trope.

There's more to it than this, a Deus Ex Machina is when a plot line or overarching story is wrapped up by un-forshadowed intervention.
What happened to V was simply a happy accident - not every positive coincidence needs to be a DEM.