Playing Evil Races... Without the "Chaotic Good Rebel" Cliche

[genderlich]

Evil races. They exist in nearly every fantasy setting, and they're often really badass and cool. Unfortunately, it's difficult to justify, in a non-evil campaign, why they would be adventuring with a normal party. The easiest way is to say that they're Chaotic Good rebels, yearning to throw off the reputation of their evil kin. This has been used so often that it's become a terrible cliche, and even if it hadn't, it sort of defeats the purpose of playing a member of an evil race. So, what are some creative ways you can think of to justify such a PC?

The specific situation I'm in: In my group's home campaign setting, Hobgoblins are fanatical religious crusaders who worship a god of slavery, blood, and fear. They want to conquer the world - not to rule it, but to purge it of all non-goblinoids. I've really been enjoying coming up with homebrew rules and lore for this empire, and I really like Hobgoblins to begin with, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to play one in a normal campaign. Ideally I'd want to play a Hobgoblin Cleric of that god, which would be even harder to figure out than just any old Hobgoblin.

I'm thinking perhaps an undercover agent sent by the Empire to gather information on the outside world, and try to dispel suspicion against Hobgoblins to get them to let their guard down. Or maybe he's searching for magic items and ancient artifacts and such to aid in the war.

[Lord Raziere]

In my honest opinion, there are no evil races.

because in my honest opinion, racial alignment can go die in a fire.

mostly because while I do enjoy playing chaotic good rebels, I like playing them for the right reasons all the better, and opposing evil ideologies rather than some shallow aesthetic that represents them like some arbitrarily designated "evil" race, when really there is backlash and minorities in every culture, you can't make a culture without acknowledging that there will eventually be people who reject it for something else.

if anything, chaotic good rebels are realistic.

as for the specific situation you presented: the default campaign is the assumption that your PC is a good guy going around saving people and killing evil.

if you don't want to be a rebel, just make hobgoblins good in general and your hobgoblin a staunch traditionalist of hobgoblins good values. there really is no way to make good PC's from evil races other than those two ways. unless your raised by a different race since you were a baby, but thats still kinda edging into rebel territory, as they would still reject the culture of the race, they would just do it for different reasons (already having their own values in place when they were raised)

edit: that if you really want there to be conflict between the empire and other people, there are many ways you can do that without just saying "they are evil" wars happen all the time between different nations over lots of things. its perfectly possible for two good nations to fight just because a couple of jerks somehow got too high up and majorly messed up negotiations, or for a ruler to try and seek resources to help feed his people in a time of famine….all sorts of stuff...

[Kyberwulf]

Evil races are just the same as normal races. Just with less restrictions and inhibitions. The motives for him traveling could be to amass more power. He could have been forced into exile. He could have tried to seize control and lost. He could be being hunted because of something he did in the past. There are a lot of reasons that he could be adventuring, not just because he is rebellion. He could just be revolting,.... I kid i kid.

[GnomeGninjas]

Left the empire to amass wealth as a mercenary? Humans slaughtered you village but adopted you and the other infants? You were born in a human prisoner of war camp, you grew up with other races and realized that they weren't quite as bad as your god said they were and decided that they should be able to live as second class citizens. After leaving the camp you went adventuring to prove hobgoblin superiority to the humans in hopes that they will surrender to the empire peacefully and be spared.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Yeah, forget the chaotic good rebel, be the lawful evil rebel. You agree completely with every tenet of hobgoblin faith except the bit where all non-goblinoids need to be exterminated. After all, corpses don't make very good slaves unless you have a really good source of onyx.

[WriterX]

Here are a few things to consider:

1) You were brought up in a "good" society. It's the old psychological Nature vs Nurture debate, where you might had lost a lot of your old habits, but some parts of your "darker" behaviors still remain, and by darker I mean "Neutral", when looked from the point of view of the darker race. If you tend to use your claws and teeth in combat an ordinary human might call you a freak, but for you this might be your standard form of combat. If instinctly you do not strive to be the "Alpha" then it may also be considered "normal". You could follow different gods, and try to be "normal" (by the new society's standards) but some part of your heritage will always remain (this might be associated with how you fight, what weapons you use, etc.).

2) You found something among your enemies that impressed you, or something in your own society shocked or moved you so much that you find following your old ways despicable. You simply look for something different, and maybe while you search you discover a philosophy or mindset that impresses you deeply. For example (just a random example from my head) you could be an Orc so experienced and old that you found all the previous War Chefs to always be the same, not caring for your own people, and since you have no lasting connection with them (you could be an orphan) you decide to leave and as you move from place to place, amongst all the bigotry and hatred, an Order of Priests could accept you and help you, and you find that strange connection you were looking for, in a largely hostile world.

I always thought about people moving away from their "Alignment Group" is that they need a shocking philosophical realisation. It's not just about "Oh, that guy killed my family, I will run away.", because that just means you are too weak for the society and look elsewhere. The second example is not about rebelling (in other words, being Chaotic Good) but realising that what you had up till now was imperfect and you are looking for that "perfection". It might be that of Arms (a Warrior from a Tribe), Spiritual (a young Acolyte who wishes to learn about other faiths), etc.

... Did I start rambling again?

[VeliciaL]

Yeah, forget the chaotic good rebel, be the lawful evil rebel. You agree completely with every tenet of hobgoblin faith except the bit where all non-goblinoids need to be exterminated. After all, corpses don't make very good slaves unless you have a really good source of onyx.

I'm reminded of Cardassians from Star Trek DS9. Gul Dukat in particular.

[vasharanpaladin]

I take the stance that the Monster Manual is written from a human's point of view, since y'know, Most Writers Are Human. So what a human considers evil, can only be right and just to a race labeled as such, see? It's pretty fun playing the culture shock angle.

...Then again, the last time I played a drow, she was a buckfug insane chain-lasher with a habit of using her enemies' blood to dye her hair.

[Souju]

Or you can have a lawful good hobgoblin. He respects his culture, follows the tenets to the letter, but refuses to do anything that endangers the dignity or lives of living creatures.
He'll Pillage and Plunder the enemies of his society, but rape and slavery is straight off the table. He's affable, but don't cross him.

[Kornaki]

Hobgoblin heals give the same HP that heals from a human cleric give. And it's only sensible to put aside petty racial hatred for the sweet reward of XP

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

The first character that I played for any length of time was a Drow wizard who was something of a send-up of the trope, in that he was either evil or the heavy side of neutral, but road the coattails of the seemingly endless "chaotic good rebels" to fake being one, himself. Really, he didn't want to throw of the reputation of his evil kin so much as take advantage of others having done so in order to not be subservient to the females in his house and everyone in more powerful and important houses. His character concept basically started as "Uuugh, I have to repel this demon invasion so these insipid peasants let me build a wizard tower in their picturesque town. Dewd, lame."

[Malrone]

Justifying being an adventurer with an evil race isn't really that different from playing a straight evil adventurer- you just need some extra backstory and a preferred method for handling racism.

Don't like the overplayed CG stereotype? Subvert. Tell the world, loudly and often, of how much you loathe your kin. Then, when they are paying you to do their dirty work and singing songs of your story, take them for all they're worth.

Alternatively, you could be [trying to become] a leader among your kind, off to gather fortune and backing. Your adventuring career provides great income, experience, and first-hand experience with the surrounding lands. All the while, place contacts, scout out locations for good villainous hideouts, and when the Good Guys send you to take care of the local Orcs/Gnolls/Giants- recruit them.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Ahh, yeah. Ra'Tiel was a pillar of his community, even after he stopped manufacturing most of the threats he was rewarded and beloved for defeating.

[BWR]

The easiest way would be to play an outcast. One who strictly speaking would like to be back amongst his own people but for some reason cannot. Maybe he killed someone he shouldn't have and had to flee, maybe a cleric received a vision from their god about this guy bringing death and destruction to them, maybe he was taken as a slave and managed to escape but could not find acceptance when he made it back to his own people.

In these cases, becoming the 'good rebel' is not so much a moral choice but an unfortunate necessity if they want to survive. Sure, you'd like sacrifice all these wussy races to your god of blood, but then you'd be killed for sure.

[Bastian Weaver]

Like it was said... playing as an outcast should be fun.
Maybe you accidentally killed someone important. Maybe you seduced a virgin priestess who talked to much. Maybe you killed a Chaoti Good Rebel and are now wanted for kill-stealing.
Lots of opportunities.

[Deffers]

I like character concepts of the Neutral member of a race who is just sick of everybody else's ****.

Maybe your hobgoblin just isn't big on the whole genocide thing. Maybe he's just tired of the rhetoric of militaristic conquest even if he believes the hobbos are the superior race and he believes in slavery-- neither of those things mean he wants to see good hobgoblins die, after all. Maybe he's just tired of the trappings of an evil society where everyone is being jerks, all the time, and you don't have allies you can actually trust. Good humanoids are good for that, at least. Maybe he just wants to go worship his god and go kick some ass in a "true worshipper of the god of blood" fashion, did anyone ever consider that? Maybe he got a mission from his god that is about preserving the hobbo race, and in comparison the whole conquest thing is a pipe dream.

I mean, a character concept I came up with once was a drow who wasn't a good rebel, he was just quite unambitious and Neutral, and through a series of unfortunate circumstances, was considered a master assassin. This is bad because, really, all he used to be was a scout, going off for days at a time alone in the Underdark, and that's all he wanted to be. So after all the backstabbing that happens when people think you're an amazing assassin, he just kinda went "NOPE" and decided to go off on his own, somewhere where people won't immediately stab him in the back. He thought drow society was mostly fine, except for the backstabbing. Didn't really care about the whole sacrifices or "our god is a crazy spider-bitch" things. Really, his noblest inclination was he wanted people he could put his trust in and he'd repay them in kind.

Maybe you could do a character like that? Who's just tired of all the parts of his society that bother him, and he decides to go amongst good races to, yunno, actually live a life that satisfies him? There's plenty for a cleric of blood and slavery to do in an adventurer's life. Hell, maybe he's just sick of the Spooky Clerical Bloodtemple and wants to go out and there's no hobgoblin adventurers out there.

[Tengu_temp]

This is not really that much different from playing any evil character in a non-evil party. Which is to say, very tricky and something that should not be attempted if you're not very good at this sort of thing.

I'm thinking perhaps an undercover agent sent by the Empire to gather information on the outside world, and try to dispel suspicion against Hobgoblins to get them to let their guard down. Or maybe he's searching for magic items and ancient artifacts and such to aid in the war.

This, for example, will get you killed when your party learns about your real motivations. And they will be justified in doing so, because you're really just an enemy with the party in order to gather info/resources for the enemies.

[Randel]

There are no evil races, just evil governments that some races may live under.

Could be a hobgoblin believes in goblin superiority, but doesn't want to just be some underling working for the current Supreme Leader. If the leader is determined by fights to the death, then goblin society could suffer from repeated changes in leadership, and anyone who works up to a position of power has to watch out for political assassinations and stuff.

So, he'd rather work in human society to get money, power, and experience than deal with the rat race back home. Back there, he'd have to work for chumps and risk traitorous underlings. Out here, he might be able to get the support of talented and loyal companions. Then, when he gets strong enough he could return to kill all the idiot leadership that's holding the goblin race back, take their power for himself, and change the political system to get the goblin race back on the right track.


Or, he's an evil goblin who hates orcs, trolls, demons, kpbolds, etc but admits that the organized genoci... I mean "adventuring" parties the humans use are more effective than goblin war bands. So he'll become an adventurer and help them wipe out rival groups.

If he comes across any goblin bands who get in his groups way, he'll try diplomacy ("Hey guys, these adventurers here could wipe out your whole gang with no problem and I'd help them because it pays better. Give them your money, leave the village alone, and get out and you'll walk out of this with your skin. This is your only warning.")

Boost your diplomacy/bluff skills to resolve issues with your own race to give the poor fools a chance and maybe try to work something out. But if they ignore your warning... so be it.

You don't rebel against them for being evil, you rebel because they are stupid and weak. Better to play for the winning team (the good guys) until such a time as you can get your home nations problems sorted out.

[Ravens_cry]

I want to play Lawful Evil defector from decadence. Evil, xenophobic even, but exhausted of all the petty infighting and squabbling among their people.

[Joe the Rat]

When talking about a character from an evil race/nation, "Outcast" is a fairly easy one to go with, as is "Rebel" against the current leadership.

Note that neither of these requires one to be Good. You either have different priorities (genocide is bad for slavery/ need an audience to appreciate your superiority), or are actively disliked by the political power, and are on the run/exiled/presumed dead, and seeking the might you need to take over the empire and make things Right: slowly crushed under your boot.

Personal power is always a good motivator - these other peoples may be weak, but they can help you to your goals. Sometimes it can be as simple as a common goal, and the willingness to overlook some differences.

For the more Honor-bound types, you can also play around with life-debts - one or more members of the party saved you, and you need to repay that obligation.

Fire-forged friendship could come out of any of these - or even simple respect - and no obligation to change alignment on anyone's part.

Me: I go with the Chaotic Neutral Rebel. You don't give a rat's patootie about good and evil and the hierarchy of racial intolerances, you just want to do your thing.

[Kaerou]

In my honest opinion, there are no evil races.

because in my honest opinion, racial alignment can go die in a fire.

I'm in agreement here, its my #1 rule in any game I run. There are evil societies but the only things that have a 'racial' alignment are outsiders and mindless undead.

[Mystral]

You could have him be a mercenary. A neutral character who fights for the highest bidder. Perhaps he refrains from taking the most heinous of tasks because good publicity means good buisness. Money and magic items are always a possible character motivation, although they shouldn't be the only one.

Another possibility would be to have him be a servant of a neutral or good god. I could totally imagine, for example, a lawfull neutral hobgoblin fighter who is a cleric of the red knight.

[A Tad Insane]

The same reasons you would have an evil human in a good campaign, wheather it's for the lulz, the good guys always seem to get rich, or because killing humans has become boring and they want to see what happens when they kill their own race.

[Cerlis]

I always prefer to see an steretyped race (Drow, orcs), then find out what people knee-jerk-reaction try to do to avoid the stereotype (Orc paladin, Good Drow), and analyze the issues and the reasoning behind said stereotype and then create an original honest take on a more unique character keeping in mind the original stereotype.

For instance Orcs and Drow are evil and often chaotic, so some people make chaotic good hero drow or LG paladin orcs. But the problem with the stereotype is that most of those original orc and drow are for the evlolz, sociopathic or having no real reason to be evil. So i think i'd rather create a "noble" Halforc who is incapable of paladin status because his orcish nature gives him to much of a temper. he is capable of flying into a rage and brutalising his foes. But it is no worse than someone with anger issues who gets charged with assault charges. Then you have the Drow bard, who sings songs and has adventures and admires nobility, ability, and wit. However he is still fairly evil. Not so much openly.He's not going to go out eating babies. I guess i'm somewhat inspired by Aiden through Being Human. Take out the feeling guilt about murder but keep up the resentment at falling into his base nature, and keeping up appearances and whats proper.

But if some guy is a jerkass tries to hunt you for sport or emotionally damages a loved one of yours then its open hunting season and they are no more than an animal.


Of course, alot of people would interpret that as somewhere in the neutral to chaotic neutral bit. But I love Aiden's brutal nature and the fact that the one who feels the most guild and puts on airs is the one who is most naturally murderer, even if he regrets it the second after he snaps their neck. (this character would be without that regret though)

[TripleD]

Everyone here is trying to find a way to make the Hobgoblin "good". Wouldn't it be interesting to just go 100% in the other direction?

What I'm saying is become a "Chaotic Evil" Hobgoblin from the Hobgoblin's point of view. A Dexter like character who, through virtue of birth or upbringing, loves killing, looting, and possibly eating other hobgoblins. Like most serial killers you have a specific niche: humans and elves hold little appeal, although orcs might be able to do in a pinch.

Your character is clearly Chaotic Evil, yet fairly harmless to humans and a valuable ally to a goblin-opposing party. Depending on how much RP you want your characters could even debate the morals of helping you get your "fix".

[JusticeZero]

Had one group in a game once that was a campaign note..

You have a bunch of Orcs. These particular Orcs worship Hextor. Hextor teaches that Might Makes Right.

One day, a massive band of paladins comes through, and rolls over the entire Orcish nation in the area, crushing it flat without even trying.

They didn't do it because the Orcs were evil. They did it because the Orcs were in between them and the BBEG they were on their way to fight.

The lesson was clear. The Orcs tended their wounds, ate their dead, and regrouped, then marched straight to the nearest church to convert to Heironeous and report to duty at the home church of the paladins.

[Lost Demiurge]

Playing an orc PC in an ongoing game right now. She's Chaotic Neutral. Barely.

The idea being that orcs go by tribe. So to fulfill the demands her damn ancestor spirits keep laying on her, she's joined the "Pathfinder" tribe. They got some weird customs, sure, but she has to abide by them because, well, she's in their tribe now. So she's loyal, she takes care of her tribe, and doesn't kill weak pinkies even when they deserve it unless it's okay by tribe standards.

She even puts up with ::Shudders:: elves. She just complains about them all the time.

In return, she gets to roam the world, get stronger, and do stuff to shut up the damn spirits who nag like you wouldn't believe. Eventually she'll go back to an orc tribe as a great prophet, probably conquer several other nearby tribes, and rule over them in proper bloody fashion. Because that's how THAT tribe does business.

[Scow2]

Had one group in a game once that was a campaign note..

You have a bunch of Orcs. These particular Orcs worship Hextor. Hextor teaches that Might Makes Right.

One day, a massive band of paladins comes through, and rolls over the entire Orcish nation in the area, crushing it flat without even trying.

They didn't do it because the Orcs were evil. They did it because the Orcs were in between them and the BBEG they were on their way to fight.

The lesson was clear. The Orcs tended their wounds, ate their dead, and regrouped, then marched straight to the nearest church to convert to Heironeous and report to duty at the home church of the paladins.

Hobgoblin heals give the same HP that heals from a human cleric give. And it's only sensible to put aside petty racial hatred for the sweet reward of XP

These are my favorite answers given in this thread already.

The thing is... the "Evil" races aren't united in the way they commit evil. I'm not the type to dismiss racial/cultural alignment as readily as The Giant is, at least in fantasy settings. Alignment is a function of outlook, which is modified by physiological and neurochemical factors. However, there are significant differences between Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, and Drow.

Orcs are bigger and stronger than humans, dwarves, elves, etc, but aren't as strong as bigger things, making them a race of insecure bullies. "Strength over all" becomes the motto through which they try to subjugate others, which causes serious conflict with other races, and 'justifies' themselves to their low Intellect and Charisma minds. However, they can become adventure-allies through realizing the strength of an adventuring party - These five guys can take on a hundred orcs, or an entire dragon.

Goblins (especially Hobgoblins) are almost functionally identical to humans, as seen by 'enlightenment' thinker Thomas Hobbes, inspired by Leviathan. Their recognition of the need to be subjugated to a higher authority makes them possible adventure material.

Gnoll culture is as evil as you can get in the mortal realm, due to being related to and worshipers of a Demon Prince. While strong, they lack orc's worship of strength - They just want to see the world burn, and do whatever the hell they want with only minimal care for their own safety (Certainly not enough to form any unit larger than a few dozen) - As for why? Because they'll be rewarded in their afterlife in the greatest frathouse party the planes have to offer. Their demonic heritage also causes carnage and debauchery to make them happy. They make decent adventuring companions by directing their destructive ball-o-fun tendencies toward short-term carnage for long-term good ends.

Drow are just a mess.

This, for example, will get you killed when your party learns about your real motivations. And they will be justified in doing so, because you're really just an enemy with the party in order to gather info/resources for the enemies.

I second this: An Evil PC's first loyalty should be to the party, even above themselves. All other loyalties come after the well-being of the party.

[3WhiteFox3]

*Takes copious amounts of notes*

Yes, my next Pathfinder game is going to be very interesting.

[Cerlis]

Hobgoblin heals give the same HP that heals from a human cleric give. And it's only sensible to put aside petty racial hatred for the sweet reward of XP

if that is your playstyle there is nothing wrong with that, but i find it to be a construct of Players.

Experience is just that, experience. Its the experience and hardship characters face, and through that they become more tenacious, clever , and powerful.

And i'd say maybe 1 in 3 adventurer's quest for power. Healers do it to protect people and fight evil, thieves do it for money and strength, even many warrior types just do it because its there. usually the "I'm doing this to become more powerful" types are arcane casters, evil divine casters, or Combat Junkies.

So to most of these people, racial and reasonble hatred ( and the resulting retribution) is much more important to alot of these character than XP.