LGBTAitp 34: <3!!

[Mono Vertigo]

@Astrella: never thought about that, but you make an interesting point on grammatical gender.
I also have the unrelated but vivid image of a parody of that Doctor Who scene with his horse, only with tables (which are feminine for some reason in French): "the table is a he, and he asks you to stop referring to him as a "she" and to respect his life choices."


I'm that drinking buddy (BF doesn't drink because he can't stand the taste of alcohol; yeah we're really bad at the game of gender stereotypes). I get tipsy very fast, but I never get any drunker. I've never been hungover, too.
Well, I would be, if I found drinking inherently fun. Our buddies believe that drinking your liver off at a bar and barely doing more than slurring a little is the greatest activity they can think of. Whereas I consider alcohol as merely an addition to other social activities, like, I don't know, partying, or watching movies.

[Philemonite]

Any guys want to follow up with a guide telling women what clothes they should wear too?

See, girls don't wear makeup exclusively for other people, they wear it for themselves or their friends.

I don't want to get into an argument, but I'm actually a chemist specialized in cosmetics so I do know a bit more then an average guy. And I had a lot of girls in my class, so I am familiar with practical use. And I didn't mean to sound like I know how to use makeup better then a girl, it was just my opinion, based on some experience. So, truce?

[Kittenwolf]

I'm that drinking buddy (BF doesn't drink because he can't stand the taste of alcohol; yeah we're really bad at the game of gender stereotypes). I get tipsy very fast, but I never get any drunker. I've never been hungover, too.

I used to be the same with alcohol. Well, technically I still am (anything above around 8% and I can't stand the ethanol taste), but when I visited the UK I found that I actually enjoy the taste of cider :)

Also, I figured I'd put up why I was crappy and vanished for a bit last week. Warning, heartbreak following:

Spoiler

Show

So. Quite a while ago now one of my friends asked me out, it was only the second ever relationship for each of us, and we went into it with a 'lets have some fun while it lasts' attitude.

We broke up a bit over four years later. I won't go into all the details but suffice to say things got kinda unbalanced between us, and rather than sit down and talk about it I broke up with her.

Since we're part of the same social group we managed to scrape a sort of friendship back together, but it wasn't a very strong one. Enough to not make things awkward I guess.

Eight odd months after the breakup I kinda realised how much I missed her, and we ended up sitting down and actually *talking* about what went wrong. There were a lot of tears on either side. Over the next week we figured out what had gone wrong with the relationship and how we'd both screwed up.
I thought we should give things another try but she said that'd be a bad idea, things were still way too raw for each of us and we needed to get past that otherwise we'd never get anywhere.
We agreed to spend the following year getting to know each other as friends again, rebuild a close friendship, and then one year from that night we'd sit down and talk about things again.
Which we did, it took a lot of doing but we became quite close friends again.

That 'one year in' was last Tuesday. I wanted to get back together, since I considered her the most important thing in my life and loved her to bits. I wasn't sure it'd work out, but thought we at least should try. I wasn't totally sure going into the conversation, but at one point I just looked at her and some bit in my mind melted and went "She's all I want".
I was prepared for all kinds of thoughts/issues from her on why it might not work out, putting off the decision, all that kind of thing.
I just wasn't prepared to find out that she doesn't love me anymore.
When I said "I"ll miss you" when we said goodbye, I got an "I'll remember you" in return.

So.. innocent part of me that believed in second chances and that love was most important died, heart broke, and I fell to pieces (that night involved crying until my face hurt, painkillers and a cup of vodka. Didn't care how **** it tasted, just wanted to pass out).

I'm getting better, in a 'don't look at the issue and it can't see you' kind of way.
I met up with a close friend the day after and she kept me company for eight odd hours with games and movies. I had a 'girly wallowing day' at the instruction of another friend (chick flick, comedies, icecream, cute PJs, doona cocoon, scented candles, toenail painting, etc) which actually made me feel a lot closer to coping.
Even had a 'clean the crap out of the house' day.

I haven't spoken to her since then, I plan to write a letter with the stuff that I wasn't capable of articulating at the time and pass it to a friend to give to her.

It didn't help that I had that week off work with the flu (third bout in six weeks), and the anitbiotics I was on gave me diarrhea. ****ing fantastic week.

[Astrella]

@Astrella: never thought about that, but you make an interesting point on grammatical gender.
I also have the unrelated but vivid image of a parody of that Doctor Who scene with his horse, only with tables (which are feminine for some reason in French): "the table is a he, and he asks you to stop referring to him as a "she" and to respect his life choices."

Hehe.

And yeah, that's sorta the curious thing about it because grammatical gender shifts around a lot between different languages so it gets very confusing. Dutch has grammatical gender, but masculine and feminine use the same article "de", while neuter words use "the".

-----

@Neo_Leviathan; Aww, I'm really sorry to hear it went that way. (But glad you are doing a bit better.) :c

[Mono Vertigo]

@Neo_Leviathan: I'm sorry it happened to you. I hope you'll find very soon the strength to get over it. *hugs*

@Astrella: I should theoretically be able to speak Dutch semi-fluently, but I'm just terrible at it. The word gendering that doesn't match my native French is only one of the problems I have; in fact, I'd be happy if that was the only block I had.
There's another very funny fact about French: some words switch gender from plural to singular. "Amour"/love, when singular, is masculine, but becomes feminine when plural. I should really research the reason behind it.

[SaintRidley]

There's another very funny fact about French: some words switch gender from plural to singular. "Amour"/love, when singular, is masculine, but becomes feminine when plural. I should really research the reason behind it.

That does seem weird.

I know in Old English that the plural was basically a fourth gender paradigm that was very similar to the feminine paradigm, so you would have some shared pronouns and articles, and the plural pronouns and articles always had more in common with the feminine than with the masculine or neuter. Perhaps something similar was the case in Old French and carried through to the modern day on just a few words.

[Mono Vertigo]

That does seem weird.

I know in Old English that the plural was basically a fourth gender paradigm that was very similar to the feminine paradigm, so you would have some shared pronouns and articles, and the plural pronouns and articles always had more in common with the feminine than with the masculine or neuter. Perhaps something similar was the case in Old French and carried through to the modern day on just a few words.

5 minutes ago, I'd say it could have something to do with it, but quick Google-fu reveals that the reason is vastly unknown except for love, who does for poetic reasons (that I'm not finding on any other site so far, so maybe it should be taken with a grain of salt, and for all I know, you might in fact be closer to the truth).
The word for people, "gens", also changes gender depending of whether the adjective is in front or behind the word. (No, we barbarians can't put all our adjectives in the same place.) I can't tell you with certainty what happens when there's an adjective in front, and another behind it. Perhaps something implodes, who knows.
... good lord, it sounds so weird and irregular when I'm describing it out loud, I have no idea how French speakers can say English is difficult in comparison.

[The Succubus]

Huh. I never knew that Musashi was actually a big scary Japanese battleship. Thanks, Wikipedia! =3

EDIT: Linkies!

[Mono Vertigo]

Huh. I never knew that Musashi was actually a big scary Japanese battleship. Thanks, Wikipedia! =3

I'm also a battleship? Huh. Next, you'll tell me I was a medieval swordsman who won a duel with a paddle, too.

[noparlpf]

I'm also a battleship? Huh. Next, you'll tell me I was a medieval swordsman who won a duel with a paddle, too.

Would've made a terrible paddle by the time he was done with it, the way I heard it.

[Astrella]

Not sure if it's been mentioned here already, but Minnesota passed gay marriage as well yesterday~

5 minutes ago, I'd say it could have something to do with it, but quick Google-fu reveals that the reason is vastly unknown except for love, who does for poetic reasons (that I'm not finding on any other site so far, so maybe it should be taken with a grain of salt, and for all I know, you might in fact be closer to the truth).
The word for people, "gens", also changes gender depending of whether the adjective is in front or behind the word. (No, we barbarians can't put all our adjectives in the same place.) I can't tell you with certainty what happens when there's an adjective in front, and another behind it. Perhaps something implodes, who knows.
... good lord, it sounds so weird and irregular when I'm describing it out loud, I have no idea how French speakers can say English is difficult in comparison.

I think every language sorta has it's idiosyncrasies. Like, don't get me started on the Dutch rules for composite words, which is either adding an s or n in between, using a "-" or a trema on top of the next letter. There's pages upon pages of different rules on how to do it. And then there's a whole bunch of exceptions that just are like that because. >.>

[Mono Vertigo]

Not sure if it's been mentioned here already, but Minnesota passed gay marriage as well yesterday~

Oh, I missed that! *throws confetti*

I think every language sorta has it's idiosyncrasies. Like, don't get me started on the Dutch rules for composite words, which is either adding an s or n in between, using a "-" or a trema on top of the next letter. There's pages upon pages of different rules on how to do it. And then there's a whole bunch of exceptions that just are like that because. >.>

That's one of my other problems. Goddamn composite words that even our teachers struggled with.
... I have half a dozen different problems with Dutch. And this is only one of the other half dozen reasons I make a mediocre Belgian citizen. <.< >.>

[Irish Musician]

Mostly yes, but not quite. You surely agree that there are expected differences between a man treating a woman and how he behaves towards his drinking buddies? Similarly you wouldn't behave towards your boss or a police officer as if you would do with your buddies.
Far more subtle differences exist with hetero- and homosexuals. Let me give you an example. Suppose you're out on a date with your hopefully soon to be girlfriend and another male friend of her sees you two and decides to chat a bit with her.
The way you react, even if it's only body language actually changes whether you know that guy to be straight or gay. In the first case he's a potential rival -if only subconsciously- and in the second case you'll be more relaxed.

The problem that I have found in reading your answers to questions, (and I am in no way hostile in saying this, merely as an outside observer) is that there are a lot of assumptions about how roles work for people and lots of generalizations on those roles. I, myself, have been quite open-minded about roles in society and who is what because of whatever reason. But having been a part of/read this thread for a while now, my eyes have definitely opened up to what our world is actually full of....people. Just, people. Black, white, polka-dotted, rainbowed, men, women, both, neither.....our world is so full of so many different people, there is no way you can say "here is the way you interact with everyone." It is impossible to generalize like that.

In fact, given your examples, I have women drinking buddies, my boss is a friend, and I know quite a few police officers form my work and treat them/joke around with them as I would my friends. I, personally, have never been too much of a Jealous person...unless things are going too far....so a buddy of mine chatting with a girl I am dating has never bothered me. My best friend and my now wife used to have lunch with each other all the time in college. My point being, you can't say that there are "set ways" in dealing with people because there are so many different people with different attitudes and different ways of looking at the world. It is impossible to put everyone in a nice, little box with a little sheet of instructions on how to deal with them all, because the world isn't black and white. There are too many shades of grey.

Not sure if it's been mentioned here already, but Minnesota passed gay marriage as well yesterday~

YYYYYYYEEEEEEHHHHHHHHAAAAAAWWWW!!!!!!!
*Does his happy dance*

~Matthew~

[noparlpf]

I, personally, have never been too much of a Jealous person...unless things are going too far....so a buddy of mine chatting with a girl I am dating has never bothered me. My best friend and my now wife used to have lunch with each other all the time in college. My point being, you can't say that there are "set ways" in dealing with people because there are so many different people with different attitudes and different ways of looking at the world. It is impossible to put everyone in a nice, little box with a little sheet of instructions on how to deal with them all, because the world isn't black and white. There are too many shades of grey.

~Matthew~

So that's not something everyone gets jealous over. I didn't think so. Anyway, shouldn't it be "shades of rainbow"?

[Lorsa]

Be very cute.
What do you mean that doesn't help?

I am not sure! What do I do to be "cute"?

Any guys want to follow up with a guide telling women what clothes they should wear too?

See, girls don't wear makeup exclusively for other people, they wear it for themselves or their friends.

Technically friends are other peo.... errr sorry that was unnecessary.

Ok so what cloathes to wear? Generally I would say wear whatever you feel comfortable in, what you feel best describes your personality and whatever makes you feel confident. I don't become interested in people because of what cloathes they wear.

But if you want to attract attention I've always thought that tight, moderately revealing cloathes to be the best!

Also, I figured I'd put up why I was crappy and vanished for a bit last week. Warning, heartbreak following:

Spoiler

Show

So. Quite a while ago now one of my friends asked me out, it was only the second ever relationship for each of us, and we went into it with a 'lets have some fun while it lasts' attitude.

We broke up a bit over four years later. I won't go into all the details but suffice to say things got kinda unbalanced between us, and rather than sit down and talk about it I broke up with her.

Since we're part of the same social group we managed to scrape a sort of friendship back together, but it wasn't a very strong one. Enough to not make things awkward I guess.

Eight odd months after the breakup I kinda realised how much I missed her, and we ended up sitting down and actually *talking* about what went wrong. There were a lot of tears on either side. Over the next week we figured out what had gone wrong with the relationship and how we'd both screwed up.
I thought we should give things another try but she said that'd be a bad idea, things were still way too raw for each of us and we needed to get past that otherwise we'd never get anywhere.
We agreed to spend the following year getting to know each other as friends again, rebuild a close friendship, and then one year from that night we'd sit down and talk about things again.
Which we did, it took a lot of doing but we became quite close friends again.

That 'one year in' was last Tuesday. I wanted to get back together, since I considered her the most important thing in my life and loved her to bits. I wasn't sure it'd work out, but thought we at least should try. I wasn't totally sure going into the conversation, but at one point I just looked at her and some bit in my mind melted and went "She's all I want".
I was prepared for all kinds of thoughts/issues from her on why it might not work out, putting off the decision, all that kind of thing.
I just wasn't prepared to find out that she doesn't love me anymore.
When I said "I"ll miss you" when we said goodbye, I got an "I'll remember you" in return.

So.. innocent part of me that believed in second chances and that love was most important died, heart broke, and I fell to pieces (that night involved crying until my face hurt, painkillers and a cup of vodka. Didn't care how **** it tasted, just wanted to pass out).

I'm getting better, in a 'don't look at the issue and it can't see you' kind of way.
I met up with a close friend the day after and she kept me company for eight odd hours with games and movies. I had a 'girly wallowing day' at the instruction of another friend (chick flick, comedies, icecream, cute PJs, doona cocoon, scented candles, toenail painting, etc) which actually made me feel a lot closer to coping.
Even had a 'clean the crap out of the house' day.

I haven't spoken to her since then, I plan to write a letter with the stuff that I wasn't capable of articulating at the time and pass it to a friend to give to her.

It didn't help that I had that week off work with the flu (third bout in six weeks), and the anitbiotics I was on gave me diarrhea. ****ing fantastic week.

The heart is a sensitive thing and when it breaks it is awful. You seem to be feeling a bit better now but if you need people to talk to you know where to find them yes?

[Eldest]

Also, I figured I'd put up why I was crappy and vanished for a bit last week. Warning, heartbreak following:

Spoiler

Show

So. Quite a while ago now one of my friends asked me out, it was only the second ever relationship for each of us, and we went into it with a 'lets have some fun while it lasts' attitude.

We broke up a bit over four years later. I won't go into all the details but suffice to say things got kinda unbalanced between us, and rather than sit down and talk about it I broke up with her.

Since we're part of the same social group we managed to scrape a sort of friendship back together, but it wasn't a very strong one. Enough to not make things awkward I guess.

Eight odd months after the breakup I kinda realised how much I missed her, and we ended up sitting down and actually *talking* about what went wrong. There were a lot of tears on either side. Over the next week we figured out what had gone wrong with the relationship and how we'd both screwed up.
I thought we should give things another try but she said that'd be a bad idea, things were still way too raw for each of us and we needed to get past that otherwise we'd never get anywhere.
We agreed to spend the following year getting to know each other as friends again, rebuild a close friendship, and then one year from that night we'd sit down and talk about things again.
Which we did, it took a lot of doing but we became quite close friends again.

That 'one year in' was last Tuesday. I wanted to get back together, since I considered her the most important thing in my life and loved her to bits. I wasn't sure it'd work out, but thought we at least should try. I wasn't totally sure going into the conversation, but at one point I just looked at her and some bit in my mind melted and went "She's all I want".
I was prepared for all kinds of thoughts/issues from her on why it might not work out, putting off the decision, all that kind of thing.
I just wasn't prepared to find out that she doesn't love me anymore.
When I said "I"ll miss you" when we said goodbye, I got an "I'll remember you" in return.

So.. innocent part of me that believed in second chances and that love was most important died, heart broke, and I fell to pieces (that night involved crying until my face hurt, painkillers and a cup of vodka. Didn't care how **** it tasted, just wanted to pass out).

I'm getting better, in a 'don't look at the issue and it can't see you' kind of way.
I met up with a close friend the day after and she kept me company for eight odd hours with games and movies. I had a 'girly wallowing day' at the instruction of another friend (chick flick, comedies, icecream, cute PJs, doona cocoon, scented candles, toenail painting, etc) which actually made me feel a lot closer to coping.
Even had a 'clean the crap out of the house' day.

I haven't spoken to her since then, I plan to write a letter with the stuff that I wasn't capable of articulating at the time and pass it to a friend to give to her.

It didn't help that I had that week off work with the flu (third bout in six weeks), and the anitbiotics I was on gave me diarrhea. ****ing fantastic week.

Oh, wow, jeez. *hugs*

I am not sure! What do I do to be "cute"?

Heck if I know. Still hasn't really worked for me.

Technically friends are other peo.... errr sorry that was unnecessary.

Ok so what cloathes to wear? Generally I would say wear whatever you feel comfortable in, what you feel best describes your personality and whatever makes you feel confident. I don't become interested in people because of what cloathes they wear.

But if you want to attract attention I've always thought that tight, moderately revealing cloathes to be the best!

I think that was actually sarcasm on Zorg's part. But could be wrong, I've had a bad time of reading stuff into what people post that they didn't fully intend.

[Irish Musician]

So that's not something everyone gets jealous over. I didn't think so. Anyway, shouldn't it be "shades of rainbow"?

Not at all. There are some thing I do get jealous over, but not many things. There are many reasons for this: I trust the people my SO is with, I trust my SO completely, I know she wouldn't ever put herself in a situation like that without me there anyway.

I like rainbowed.....but shades of the rainbow works nicely as well

~Matthew~

[SaintRidley]

Regarding the "how does one get a date" line of discussion - I'm married. Still have no idea how I managed to wind up in a relationship at all, let alone get to the getting married part.

Not sure if it's been mentioned here already, but Minnesota passed gay marriage as well yesterday~

Brought this to the thread yesterday. Still good to have it mentioned again.

[Wormwood74]

In addition, many members are willing to give private advice one on one, either through email or PM. The best way to do this is asking for PM help in thread, or else to PM one of the following people:

Name: Especially familiar with the topic(s) of
KenderWizard: General/basics, gender and feminism, bisexuality
Musashi: General/basics, asexuality/demisexuality, depression
noparlpf: General/basics, asexuality, greysexuality, biology
Lea Plath: Genderfluidity
Lycunadari: Genderqueer and agendered
Eldest: General/basics, bisexuality
Karen Lynn: General/basics, pansexuality, polyamory
HMS Sophia: Trans stuff (esp hormones)
Lix Lorn: General/basics
Tanail: Trans stuff (esp emotional issues)
Absol197: Gender identity issues
Warkitty: Academic/technical discussions
Lentrax: General/basics, depression, bullying
Asta Kask: Biochemistry/neurobiology

Some people are also willing to talk off-board, through Skype or email or other means, this is especially useful if your question involves board-forbidden topics such as religion or politics. Also, we can't (and ethically shouldn't!) give medical advice. If you need medical advice, please see a professional!

Please feel free to contact me via message, and add my name to the list. I am actually someone who is VERY well known nationally in the transgender community, and can talk about the politics and law surrounding transgender issues.

It is because I am involved with the very nitty gritty real life and political stuff, that I do not discuss it here. However, I am one of those people in the community whom if I don't know the answer, I know exactly who out there can help you based on my extensive network of contacts within leadership of the LGBT community.

[ScionoftheVoid]

-snip- Makeup DOES make a difference (I have to sadly admit as I generally think people should use less). -snip-

Apparently I need to acquire and learn to use makeup. ...after my exam and moving (I should probably be studying right now <.< >.>).

Yay for more marriage equality~

Hugs are available for those who need/want them. And then I'll be disappearing because I really do need to study (for once).

[SiuiS]

Yes, because all science and scientists are horrible bogeymen united in the cause of evil.
Respect for humanity is not mutually exclusive with scientific inquiry.

Sorry sport. You lose the moral high ground when you ignore an example right in front of you about scientists being problematic in order to say scientists aren't problematic.

Lorsa it's not discussing tables and not being sure of couch or chair. Attractiveness is subjective, no one agrees on it, it's still discussable.

Neon_Leviathan I'm sorry.

[Asta Kask]

Siuis, you twisted my words to say something I was deliberately trying not to say. You put up a straw man that is both insulting and hurtful. I do not think that it is fruitful to continue our discussion any longer.

[Astrella]

The problem that I have found in reading your answers to questions, (and I am in no way hostile in saying this, merely as an outside observer) is that there are a lot of assumptions about how roles work for people and lots of generalizations on those roles. I, myself, have been quite open-minded about roles in society and who is what because of whatever reason. But having been a part of/read this thread for a while now, my eyes have definitely opened up to what our world is actually full of....people. Just, people. Black, white, polka-dotted, rainbowed, men, women, both, neither.....our world is so full of so many different people, there is no way you can say "here is the way you interact with everyone." It is impossible to generalize like that.

In fact, given your examples, I have women drinking buddies, my boss is a friend, and I know quite a few police officers form my work and treat them/joke around with them as I would my friends. I, personally, have never been too much of a Jealous person...unless things are going too far....so a buddy of mine chatting with a girl I am dating has never bothered me. My best friend and my now wife used to have lunch with each other all the time in college. My point being, you can't say that there are "set ways" in dealing with people because there are so many different people with different attitudes and different ways of looking at the world. It is impossible to put everyone in a nice, little box with a little sheet of instructions on how to deal with them all, because the world isn't black and white. There are too many shades of grey.~Matthew~

Very true.

Apparently I need to acquire and learn to use makeup. ...after my exam and moving (I should probably be studying right now <.< >.>).

*hugs*

Now go study and hope your exam goes well!

[B]Name: Especially familiar with the topic(s) of

I guess you can add me to this as well? Uhm, let's see: GSRM rights, feminism and trans stuff? Though I'm always willing to lend an ear and try and help out with anything, honestly.

[Philemonite]

I guess you can add my name to the list too.
I'm actually very good at giving advice about relationships and dealing with depression when it's not about me. When it comes to my life all judgment and reasoning is off.

[Irish Musician]

I guess you can add me to this as well? Uhm, let's see: GSRM rights, feminism and trans stuff? Though I'm always willing to lend an ear and try and help out with anything, honestly.

Me as well, what little comfort I might be able to provide with what little knowledge I have. I can't really help, per say, in the information area of stuff. But I am very good at letting people get out whatever devils they have in them by ranting/yelling/talking to me to make them feel better. Listening has always been my thing, with some advice here and there dealt out. It has never bothered me for people to get all their negative emotions out around me, and never has seems to effect me in any way (other than me wanting to wrap them up in a blanket). So that is something I guess.

So I guess: Rant Listener/Punching Bag/blanket wrapper

It isn't much, but its all I have to give.

~Matthew~

[Mono Vertigo]

How to get a date?
... beats me.
The only advice I can give is to not attempt to be too subtle and communicate as clearly as possible what's on your mind. Subtlety stops being cute when the other is too oblivious to catch the hints. (I should know, I was the oblivious one. And the hints were obvious like whoa.)

[Lentrax]

@Neo: I am so sorry to hear that. Need to talk more? Send me a PM.

Unrelated: I figured you all should see who it is you are talking to.

Warning: I do not photograph well. I am not a very happy person usually.

Spoiler

Show

Seriously. I look frumpy.

Spoiler

Show

Smiling fels so unnatural to me I don't even do it for pictures. And when you do get a picture of me smiling it looks creepy or weird.

Spoiler

Show

You were warned...

[Irish Musician]

How to get a date?
... beats me.
The only advice I can give is to not attempt to be too subtle and communicate as clearly as possible what's on your mind. Subtlety stops being cute when the other is too oblivious to catch the hints. (I should know, I was the oblivious one. And the hints were obvious like whoa.)

I remember telling my wife at one point that I don't take hints well. If she wanted something, she just had to come out and ask it, or just do it. I tend to be a little thick in that regard

[noparlpf]

I keep asking why it is that neurotypical people are so dense when they're the ones who came up with things like language and communication and empathy in the first place and I've only learned bits of those from them. Turns out, they just don't use those skills very often. Subsequent questions like, "Well why invent language if you won't bother to use it?" or, "Why get upset with somebody for not being able to read your mind? That's what communication is for," have yet to be answered.
So yeah, try using words and being clear about things. That solves like, 90% of the issues you read about over in Relationships Woes and Advice.

[Castaras]

"Talk to them" is the "Clear your cache", only for dealing with people instead of dealing with browsers.