Monk and Vow of Poverty. Double dipping?

[Mike_G]

We have a monk in our game (a campaing I'm not DMing) who has taken the Vow of poverty, and seems to be freaking bulletproof.

I read the specs for the Vow and he's not cheating or adding things that don't stack, but he's way out of the league ofm the rest of the party.

Now, I think it's just too much synergy for a Monk.

A Monk gets and AC bonus and Wis to AC to make up for not wearing armor, higher damage from Unarmed Attack to make up for not using weapons, ki strike to compensate for magic weapons.

The VoP gives him an AC bonus, exalted strike, stat boosts and save boosts to make up for his lack of items.

This combines to make a character who has no real disadvantage from the Vow, and effectively double all his bonuses anyway.

A Paladin who took VoP would get the AC bouns which would compensate for his lack of armor, but not the class AC bouns from the monk. He'd also do probably 1d6 with his simple, non magical melee weapon, instead of the monks increasing damage, like 1d10 by mid levels. No mount, no magic sword, etc.

Anyone else have thoughts?

[Yuki Akuma]

Pit him against a creature with a fly speed.

Actual content: Vow of Poverty is not overpowered. In fact, it's quite underpowered; the bonuses are fixed, and the character never gets really useful abilities even a fighter with enough equipment can get, such as flight.

A properly equipped monk will outshine a VoP monk every time.

Monks are generally bulletproof; that's their thing. They can't do anything else worth a damn, however, such as, say, hurting things; 2d6 isn't that much when the fighter has a +4 flaming burst shocking scythe of dancing and a +5 keen flaming burst geatsword.

[Thomas]

The Vow is slightly weaker (and amazingly lacking in versatility) than having magic items according to your level. A monk with +10 bracers of armor, a +5 ring of protection, +6 gloves of dexterity, a +6 pearl of wisdom, and so on is going to be tougher and better than the VoP monk. (If you add stuff from other books, the monk with equipment can be ridiculously powerful.)

Meanwhile, the VoP monk can only run around and jump. No flight, no nothing. He may be fast, but his mobility is poor.

Every character class needs gold - monks for an array of boosting items - and every character class suffers pretty much the same for VoP. (Except for druids; wildshaping makes up for lack of mobility, and you retain the VoP bonuses when wildshaped. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that you don't get the benefits of magical items while in another shape/form.)

Also, good luck getting through DR X/silver or X/cold iron with that monk?

Is the rest of the party getting exactly (or more than) the WBL gold from the DMG? If they're getting less, the monk is going to be more powerful.

The Vow is supposed precisely make up for the lost benefits of magic items. You get an AC bonus to replace the AC items you're not using (which would give you a much, much higher bonus; up to +20, easy, vs. VoPs +15 by 20th level), you get some stat bonuses to replace those for items (+8, +6, +4, and +2 for the VoP; +11 to Dex and Wis, and smaller bonuses to others for a monk with items), etc.

It's just not that powerful, compared to a character of the same level with the appropriate items.

Again, in a campaign where the party don't get their WBL "allocation" (or where they get stupid or useless items), the VoP is going to look "too powerful"; becuase the VoP character is getting his full share of bonuses.

[Mike_G]

I'm not saying VoP is overpowered. I'm saying that it benefits a Monk much, much more than it would benefit say, a fighter, and the monk gives up less.

At 9th level (the level we're at) the VoP AC bouns is +7. Equal to a +3 chain shirt, with no armor check penalties. Not overpowered at that level.

A VoP fighter would have an AC of 17 + Dex mod.

The Monk has an AC of 17 + (Dex mond) +1 (Monk AC bouns) + (Wis Bouns)

The fighter's damage is 1d6 (simple weapon. They almost all do 1d6) +Str bonus. Nothing to defeat DR.

The Monk's damage is 1d10 unarmed. Ki strike:magic to overcome resistance.

So, VoP for a fighter, greatly underpowered. Much better to gte some magic plate and a +3 Flaming Burst sword. VoP for a Monk, not so bad.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes, yes, everyone knows fighters suck. What else is new? Are you going to point out that a wizard without a spellbook is weaker, too?

[Thomas]

Well, yes. VoP makes any fighter, paladin, or wizard pretty useless. Those classes are totally dependent on gold and equipment, after all. Who's surprised?

But you're contradictory now...

We have a monk in our game (a campaing I'm not DMing) who has taken the Vow of poverty, and seems to be freaking butletproof.

... he's way out of the league ofm the rest of the party.

I'm not saying VoP is overpowered.

...

So, VoP for a fighter, greatly underpowered.

Which is it? Is the monk too good, or is he just better than a useless VoP fighter would be?

Does everyone in the party have VoP or something?

[Mike_G]

Well, yes. VoP makes any fighter, paladin, or wizard pretty useless. Those classes are totally dependent on gold and equipment, after all. Who's surprised?

But you're contradictory now...





Which is it? Is the monk too good, or is he just better than a useless VoP fighter would be?

Does everyone in the party have VoP or something?

Ah. I just reread my post.

AC wise, he's way beyond the rest of us. With the stat boosts, plus dumping a high stat in Wis, his AC is 30 ish, compared to low 20s for the rest of us. This means that either he never gets hit, or the baddies with high ennough bonuses to hit him always hit us. His damgae is low but other than that, his nigh invulnerability makes me question it.

I may DM for this group and I want to be prepared.

And I never said Fighter was weak, so I have no freaking clue where that came from. I did say a VoP Monk will kick a VoP fighter's ass, since the dependance on gear is different.

I'm just saying I think the Vow, not being a class ability but something for everybody, benefits monks disproportionately.

[Thomas]

What levels?

Looking at my own builds (with the 15-14-13-12-10-8 array and WBL by the book), I've got a 10th-level monk with AC 26 easy, a 10th-level duskblade with AC 27 without spells, a 7th-level dwarf fighter/barbarian with AC 24, and an 11th-level swashbuckler/fighter/duelist with AC 27 prior to fighting defensively. Compared to those, an AC of 30 for an AC specialist ( = monk) doesn't seem that odd.

[Mike_G]

What levels?

Looking at my own builds (with the 15-14-13-12-10-8 array and WBL by the book), I've got a 10th-level monk with AC 26 easy, a 10th-level duskblade with AC 27 without spells, a 7th-level dwarf fighter/barbarian with AC 24, and an 11th-level swashbuckler/fighter/duelist with AC 27 prior to fighting defensively. Compared to those, an AC of 30 for an AC specialist ( = monk) doesn't seem that odd.

7-9th level party. Maybe low on the magic items, couldn't tell you average wealth. None of these were deliberate "builds." They've been played and have what they have. Not sure how WBL equals out.

I'm playing a Beguiler, and since I fight much less, it doesn't really affect me, but the chain shirt barabarian has an AC around 22, the dex based fighter has about a 24. They only have armor +dex+maybe a weak ring of Protection or amulet of Nat Armor. He's got Monk AC + VopP Armor +VoP Nat armor(or maybe some other exalted thing)+Dex+Wis. It all seems to stack and be 6-10 points higher than everyone else.

I'm not feeling neglected, I just don't want to be screwed when it's my turn to DM and I can have the bad guys attack bonus cranked up to possibly hit the Monk, or low to maybe not hit the barabarian on a roll of 5.

[Thomas]

Sounds like the rest of you are underpowered. Like I said, the VoP is balanced on the assumption that the other characters are getting gold as per table 5-1 (page 135) in the DMG. See page 54 for some elaboration.

If the PCs don't get precisely that much gold, the VoP will NOT be balanced, and should NOT be used or allowed. If the PCs get more, VoP will be too weak; if they get less, VoP will be too powerful. It's as simple - and as absolute - as that. (Note, also, that the VoP character has to get a share of treasure, all of which he/she must donate to charity, and none of which he/she or the other PCs can use.)

[The Valiant Turtle]

I believe the VoP was designed to allow characters who might choose to go without equipment for role-playing reasons to still be mechanically viable. Classes who a equipment dependent would be mostly out of thier mind to use the VoP.

One thing to keep in mind is that for what the goal of the VoP is (make a decent melee fighter) it is reasonably well optimized. If the rest of the party is clueless regarding character optimization, then the VoP Monk will be much better off. Even a normally strong class can suck if the player doesn't at least do some minimal char-oping. And the VoP is very dependent on the Wealth by Level guidelines (which has been beaten to death already).

It takes a pretty good DM to make sure that a VoP character stays reasonably in balance with the rest of the group and watch that they don't end up claiming the VoPs share of the treasure. I've decided to ban the VoP in my games simply because I know I'm not a good enough DM to manage it.

[Bears With Lasers]

Yeah, from the sounds of it, the problem isn't VoP--it's that the other characters don't have enough wealth for their level. A 10th level character's items and gold should add up to 49,000 gp. AC 22 and 24 are rather low for level 9 characters, too, for the most part, although it sounds about right for the barbarian.

What's more, monks are good at staying alive. That's what monks do. On the other hand, they're not so good at contributing to anything in combat.

In my tabletop game, my wizard puts a Luminous Armor (BoED) on the monk, making him nigh-unhittable by most baddies... who don't even try, focusing on the melee rogue or the swashbuckler or me (presuming I haven't disabled them yet). Meanwhile, the monk zips around taking out the groups of weak, low-CR critters the module we're playing has, or providing flanking for the rogue.

[StGlebidiah]

I think we've all lost track of the main point Mike_G is making at this point, which is that VoP is better for Monks than, say, Fighters.

Well, yes and no.

On the face of it, it does look that way, because the Monk isn't supposed to wear armour anyways, and therefore has class features to make up for it. Give him VoP, and suddenly he has these class features, IN ADDITION TO VoP features that are intended to MAKE UP FOR a lack of ARMOUR (which he wasn't wearing anyways, but with VoP he "is"). The Fighter taking VoP gives up his armour and gets the VoP features which replace it, essentially coming out "even". I think this is essentially one of Mike's arguments (please correct me if I'm wrong here!).

However, in actuality, it doesn't really work out like that, simply because there ARE ITEMS Monks can BUY and WEAR that are NOT ARMOUR which increase the Monk's AC. Bracers of Natural Armour, Rings of Protection, hell, Animated Sheilds (correct me if Monks can't use these, but I mean, you just let it Animate for you and lack of prof shouldn't even matter), stat-increase items (an admittedly weaker argument, because VoP also provides stat bonuses to precisely make up for these, but a non-VoP Monk could buy MORE stat bonuses than VoP provides), Monk's Belts, or any other number of handy items which Monks with Money (MwM!) can buy to make up for the lack of armour, and meet or surpass the AC bonuses from VoP.

[Mike_G]

Yes. That was precisely my argument.

It seems like the monk is being compensated for stuff he wouldn't use anyway.

[Bears With Lasers]

Except that, of course, the monk's Wisdom-to-AC isn't nearly as much as enchanted armor provides. The VoP monk gets a few points a fighter wouldn't get... but then, that's part of what the monk's abilities are. The monk also has Evasion; the VoP fighter doesn't.

VoP druids are scary; the monk's pretty much where he's supposed to be. Not Dying is the what the monk does in combat.
Well, unless he goes up against a good fighter.

[Thomas]

Yes. That was precisely my argument.

It seems like the monk is being compensated for stuff he wouldn't use anyway.

No. Again, he's being (insufficiently) compensated for things he would wear: a ring of protection, bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor, etc. A 20th-level monk will have a far, far better AC without Vow of Poverty than with it. (The same may not go for all levels, but on the high end it's going to be very true.)

[Mike_G]

Except that, of course, the monk's Wisdom-to-AC isn't nearly as much as enchanted armor provides. The VoP monk gets a few points a fighter wouldn't get... but then, that's part of what the monk's abilities are. The monk also has Evasion; the VoP fighter doesn't.

VoP druids are scary; the monk's pretty much where he's supposed to be. Not Dying is the what the monk does in combat.
Well, unless he goes up against a good fighter.

Well, VoP cotributes 8 points to AC at his level. That's replacing heavy armor, or light armor with a decent enchantment. That's logical. I don't know if a 9th level non-VoP monk would have +8 to his armor form just items. (+8 bacers are expensive. Bracers + a ring and amulet maybe, but I think that's still a bit high)

His Monkeyness adds 6 (+1 just 'cause he's a 9th level Monk and +5 from Wis, since he dumped his stats boosts there.)


These form an evil synergy, and I wonder if they were intended to stack like that.

[Bears With Lasers]

He'd have the Wisdom bonus whether he has VoP or not. At level 9, by the WBL guidelines, he should have 49,000 gp. That'll buy him Bracers of Armor +3 (9k), an Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8k), a Ring of Protection +2 (8k) for starers, besides stat boosters. And how about either a lot of Potions of Shield (+4 when he needs it) or a Ring of Force Shield (+2)? WIth the ring, that's +9 AC, if he's interested in pumping AC, with enough money left over for a stat-booster. Compare to VoP's 8 points. The monk bonus, he gets either way.

[Mike_G]

He'd have the Wisdom bonus whether he has VoP or not. At level 9, by the WBL guidelines, he should have 49,000 gp. That'll buy him Bracers of Armor +3 (9k), an Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8k), a Ring of Protection +2 (8k) for starers, besides stat boosters. And how about either a lot of Potions of Shield (+4 when he needs it) or a Ring of Force Shield (+2)? WIth the ring, that's +9 AC, if he's interested in pumping AC, with enough money left over for a stat-booster. Compare to VoP's 8 points. The monk bonus, he gets either way.

Well, the stat boosts are not relly relevant, since he can't have items, but he does get the extra boosts from the Vow. I assume these are compatible.

I just think "Hey. Monk's run around in their pyjamas. They need AC boots." combined with "Hey. these guys eschew posessions, like armor. They need an AC boost." is kinda redundant.

Your above example, 25,000 worth of items gets him within spitting disatnce of the VoP, and that's half his WBL, so I guess that's reasonable.

Maybe we're just po'.

[Bears With Lasers]

Well, the stat boosts are not relly relevant, since he can't have items, but he does get the extra boosts from the Vow. I assume these are compatible.

I just think "Hey. Monk's run around in their pyjamas. They need AC boots." combined with "Hey. these guys eschew posessions, like armor. They need an AC boost." is kinda redundant.

Your above example, 25,000 worth of items gets him within spitting disatnce of the VoP, and that's half his WBL, so I guess that's reasonable.

Maybe we're just po'.

Within spitting distance? +9>+8. Money, following the WBL guidelines, makes him come out to approximately the same AC as the Vow. That's exactly how it should be.

You guys are just poor. Of course, if the DM is intentionally running a low-wealth campaign, he probably shouldn't have allowed Vow of Poverty. If everyone else's gear adds up to, oh, 25k each, then of course the monk's better off, his Vow is roughly equivalent to 49k.

But, no. VoP + monk is not cheesy in any way. It's all "supposed" to stack.

[Noneoyabizzness]

bah to the monk vop

psionic vop will kill you evil do'ers ten times before you hit the ground. who needs books, material components or expensive foci? and the soulknife will rock as you use the enhancements from the class to get powers on your weapon and the feat to do the rest for the enhancement bonus.

[The_Last_Night]

... Yeah, a psion without power stones and dorjes sounds real nice. Not. And Soulknife? Are you kidding me? Soulknife is already weak, and the VoP's enhancement of its mind blade would overlap with the Soulknife's +4 at 20th level (but not with the +5 in properties). You'd basically be giving up half of the Soulknife's main feature. All for a set of bonuses less than what magic items can get you, and far less diverse (for example, how are you going to fight high-level enemies without, oh, flight?).

[Noneoyabizzness]

... Yeah, a psion without power stones and dorjes sounds real nice. Not. And Soulknife? Are you kidding me? Soulknife is already weak, and the VoP's enhancement of its mind blade would overlap with the Soulknife's +4 at 20th level (but not with the +5 in properties). You'd basically be giving up half of the Soulknife's main feature. All for a set of bonuses less than what magic items can get you, and far less diverse (for example, how are you going to fight high-level enemies without, oh, flight?).

reverse that, but still +4 adjustible properties, maliable enhancements, ranged capacity with throw mind blade, (or soulbow class+5 arrows huzzah) far from useless.

[The_Last_Night]

So it's better than a commoner, great. Throw Mind Blade doesn't give you much range. Soulbow is a much better class than Soul*knife*, and Soulknife 2 as a lead-in is likely all one should take with Soulbow. VoP is fairly significantly worse than equivalent gear at level 20, and is about the same but with fewer options at lower levels. Soulknife's already bad. VoP makes it worse, not better.

[Jade_Tarem]

VoP is balanced on the assumption that you're playing some kind of base class, you need to kneel down right now and pray that he doesn't start on some monk/cleric/sacred fist thing - then you'll see what bulletproof really means.

I don't have the exact stats, but for one level fifteen in one of my games, combining that combo with with VoP pretty much filled in any weakness.

He could fly, fast, while being immune to, oh, pretty much everything interesting, and a lot of boring stuff too, like damage. I think all that he really had to worry about were really-high DC'd will save things.

To be more specific:

He could not be grappled, tripped, or slowed in any way.
He could not be diseased, poisoned, cursed... just about any seriously debilitating effect was out.
He could heal himself rapidly and use delay death to make sure that he would have time to heal.
He could outrun a horse. Actually, he could outrun a horse with the +30 speed horseshoes, too.
Most things requiring a fort save were of no consequence.
Almost anything requiring a will save was out, save for a high DC one.
Reflex save? Yeah - he had that and evasion too.
AC? - You don't want to know.
He could airwalk.
He could channel such small, harmless spells as flamestrike and harm through his fists, feet, spleen, whatever.
Oh yes - no eating, drinking, breathing, or sleeping.

Did he die? Yes - it was a comical mishap involving four krackens and a very strong lightning attack, and a seriously bad miscalc. on the Delay death timer... but I digress. You can see from the setup that he was approaching total twinkage already, but the VoP really filled in the gaps in his armor. That's really misusing it.

[Tola]

...Sounds like your average 'Ancient master' type, really.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Is Vow of Poverty too good for monks? I'll try and think what other core classes are like with it.

Wizard - Gets armour class bonuses like he needs but gets tons of weapon enhancements he doesn't and eschew materials limits you, especially since you need 2 feats to get Vow of Poverty in the first place. Unless you're able to get into that prestige class that Tatoos their spell book onto them you're pretty screwed. That only works if you use cheap ink as well.

Sorcerer - Same as wizard but slightly better.

Fighter - Bonus feats make up for wasting 2 feats of Vow of Poverty, bonus exalted feats from Vow of Poverty can help. Still won't save him though.

Barbarian - Spending 2 feats to take Vow of Poverty will hurt you if you want to get power attack and his other staple feats. Can help him since he doesn't want to run around in full plate.

Paladin - Depends on whether or no you want barding for that warhorse. Vow of Poverty and Paladin mesh well on characterisation but just doesn't cut like a Holy Avenger.

Cleric - Can lose out on armour, stat bonuses can help with spell casting and turning, bonus exalted feats usually help clerics. There are still some magic items that suit them better though.

Druid - Wouldn't wear much armour anyway. In wildshape he becomes too powerful.


Rogue - Can't even carry lockpicks

Vow of Poverty works well for monks, but that's because it gives tons of combat bonuses and monks are a combat class. Sacred fist and you get a monster but I always hated that class. I mean, you combine two classes that get 3/4 base attack and they get a full base attack Prc?

The main problem I have with vow of poverty is the problem I have with Dungeons and Dragons. Too much reliance on items. The great hero who's just a cookie cutter two-weapon power attacker who just happens to have a +5 flaming burst Thundering Greatsword and a +5 animated shield doesn't sound very 'epic' to me. Especially the way defense is entirely item based. Two 20th level fighters sparing without equipment will hit each other with all four attacks all the time. That's one of the reason's I've been playing d20 Modern more recently. Give them just a Masterwork Machine Pistol or Katana with a +3 bonus to attack by 15th level and they don't need anything else.

[Ikkitosen]

I have to say that I have no problem with VoP being better for some classes (druid, monk) than others (fighter, rogue). I mean, Power Attack is better for some classes (full BAB) than others, but we aren't complaining about it, are we? In fact, Power Attack probably has more effect on game balance than VoP too!

[Whamme]

Honestly, VoP is balanced for a monk and underpowered for anything else ('cept Druid, but Druids are broken out of the box).

I mean, if VoP compensated for not wearing armour AND for the armour not being enchanted, it would be overpowered, perhaps.

Seriously. What level is the monky in question? How much extra AC from VoP is he getting?

How many GP would you have to spend on Bracers/Rings/etc to match it?

How many GP is appropriate for that level?


Do the math. Just Do It.


Yes. He's better than a Fighter or Paladin would be - but do you honestly think they didn't consider the balance issue of a CORE CLASS FAMED FOR VOWS OF POVERTY IN THE FLAVOUR TEXT taking it?

[Khantalas]

My DM got rid of "no nifty magical items" thing using a most weird solution that certainly made Vow of Poverty overpowered. And fit in with the concept of a monk.

Tattoo-ed items.

You want a cloak of flying? Someone would inscribe a tattoo of a dragon (or crane or hippogriff or any other flying thing) on the guy's back and he would fly. Shields on the forearms and, voila, Bracers of Armor.

Sure, you couldn't get into Tattooed Monk or Red Wizard, but my DM was a bit crazy.