OOTS #887 - The Discussion Thread

[Snails]

I think if Belkar is seeing all of this, he's going to feel very betrayed when he comes out of it. He spent all this time and effort trying to be a team member - saving Haley and Celia's lives in the process - and no rez for Belkar, and no sadness at his grave, which they only bothered to dig after they 'saved' Azure City.

I'm guessing that if he saw this, he's going to revert to his prior nature, hard.

It is a potentially interesting test of Belkar's character development, isn't it?

[peejaybee]

This comic just makes me more anxious of what is going on outside the illusion. I wonder how much time has passed. The Linear Guild is getting closer and the Order are sitting ducks. How will the Order free themselves from the illusion?

I wouldn't fret too much. Similar fantasies have taken fractions of a second.

[Icewraith]

I'm pretty sure that is Roy's skin tone in the upper right-hand corner?

What I find interesting is if this is indeed only Roy's perspective, the party has been shockingly lax in detailing some of their opponent's key abilities, while incredibly detailed in other areas, like the members of the resistance. That's probably the only thing stopping me from saying "only Roy is seeing this." Or rather "Roy, and only Roy, is seeing this."

Edit: Nevermind, I forgot that Roy remembers anything he saw "while floating around here", so presumably he attempted to yell at all or most of the resistance members in the hopes that one would be psychic or similar.

Everyone in the party should be expecting Redcloak to be packing a disintegrate, so forcecage won't be shutting him down for more than one round.

I was thinking maybe the spell wouldn't target Mister Scruffy, who would snap Belkar out of it or allow him a new save (it's high time he passed a Will save, natural 20 time perhaps?) but I don't see Girard leaving a hole like that in his defenses. However at this point the party's best hope is V, who might be able to destroy the runes with an evocation or similar even if s?he's out of dispels and end the effect..

[Ebon_Drake]

The shot of Roy and Eugene happily waving to each other broke my heart a little bit.

[RyanKoopa]

Is anyone else expecting the mother of all time skips to occur when they wake up?

[Sunken Valley]

Does anyone else feel sick the more they look at the purple. Can the book have a more pleasant shade Rich?

[Sir_Leorik]

Well, technically, it appears to be an enchantment effect rather than an illusion. Otherwise they wouldn't have the swirly eyes.

It is an illusion, specifically a phantasm. All phantasms are mind affecting effects, and in the OotS comic, characters affected bymind affecting effects, have swirly eyes.

So to recap, in the OotS comic, if you have swirly eyes you may be charmed, dominated, under a suggestion, confused or affected by a phantasm, because all of these are mind affecting effects.

[Mikhailangelo]

Doesn't look like they've got a very good plan for destroying Xykon's phylactery...

[Porthos]

I'm pretty sure that is Roy's skin tone in the upper right-hand corner?

It's nowhere near Roy's skin color. It is far closer to the color of the celling/walls.

[Millennium]

Belkar still is, by his own admittance, still a spiteful, evil little bastard, who is only pretending to be less evil lately because people will give him stuff for it.
There's nothing to revert because nothing has really changed.


I'm constantly surprised by how far people will go to sympathize with the villains or excuse their misbehavior, while at the same time condeming the good guys for any minor slight.

The thing is, Belkar does seem to genuinely want to be seen as a more valuable member of the group. He's been making allusions to that recently within the group, and he stated it outright when in private (and thus with no one to impress, except Mr. Scruffy). This doesn't necessarily make him nonevil: even bad guys like to feel appreciated.

It does mean he's not as much of a psychopath as one might otherwise be led to believe: he cares about at least some people's opinions of him, at least a little bit. That opens the door to making him scarier, though: what if this "betrayal" pushes him over the edge, and then we get a taste of what Belkar is really capable of? That kind of plot twist crosses into territory that isn't funny anymore, and for that reason, I don't think the strip will actually go there. But even dancing this close to the line is one heck of a way to build suspense.

[Porthos]

After catching up with the hundreds of posts made overnight and reading post after post after post saying "OMG! Iz this Elan's Happy Ending?!?"/"It'd be cool/a neat twist if it was!", I just have one thing to say:

George RR Martin (In the grim dark future of fantasy literature there will only be grim darkness) and JJ Abrams/Damon Lindelof (Twist! There must ALWAYS be a mindbending twist at some point) have a LOT to answer for.

...

I feel better already after getting that off my chest.

[ChristianSt]

Hmm..

1) This is clearly a happy ending for Elan, its even Elan focused. Elan gets 3 whole panels where he is the only PC we see and is doing things like riding dinosaurs, finding a mate for Banjo, and making up with his brother before his father. What more is necessary for a happy ending? A ball pit? (Wouldn't that huge room full of gold suffice?)

2) What's odd about Belkar's death from Elan's imagination, nor Belkar's imagination for that matter? Also Roy's statue seems quite ok with most of the orders' dreams (who wouldn't wish for Roy to get the hero treatment?). It could be a shared illusion based on the order's hopes, dreams, fears whatever, but if we are seeing a particular PC's illusion we would be seeing Elan's. The number of Elan-focused strips, and the sheer optimistic euphoria suits his imagination (I can only picture Elan daring to dream of Malack resurrecting Durkon quietly).

3) Belkar has himself suggested he isn't good for anything other than hurting people and in that panel he didn't sound like he still had the zest for it; would Belkar even respond to a raise in the unlikely event it was given?

4) As for the passage of time, probably not even hours, as we have the LG hunting for them and they have significantly more illusion-resistant (even immune) members.

1) Because this illusion is a happy ending for Elan, it could be the one the Oracle is pointing at with his prophecy. So it could be possible that the real ending might not be happy for Elan (I'm not really thinking that, but it is possible)

2) While I think both events could easily happen in Elan's mind, I think the background doesn't quite fit. (Panel 7: Roy/V not caring about the death of a fellow team member. Panel 9: Julia doesn't seem happy about Roy's achievement, I would think Elan would imagine a happy family reunion.)

3) Panel 7 I would credit to Belkar, but why does he get only 1 panel, when all other get much more? (Sure, it could be that he wishes to be gone, but I don't think so, even more so: He knows that Durkon got vamped, so he shouldn't believe a illusion with a living Durkon without a really good explanation)
To responding to a raise: why should he even need one in the first place? (If he wanted himself dead, then at least he should imagine some fancy afterlife for himself)

4) While the LG could show up any minute, we only now for sure when they actually show up there - which could certainly take some amount of time, we don't know how complicated the pyramid is, and they have no one to track the Order. (And I could totally imagine that if Nale/Z get trapped inside the illusion, Malack simple doesn't care about them and honors Durkons wish and leave [and I don't know about D&D rules, but when this effect is set up by Girard, I wouldn't bet any money on anyone being immune to it])

[Porthos]

1) Because this illusion is a happy ending for Elan, it could be the one the Oracle is pointing at with his prophecy. So it could be possible that the real ending might not be happy for Elan (I'm not really thinking that, but it is possible)

The story of The Order of the Stick hasn't finished, ergo it isn't Elan's Happy Ending.

Is Rich playing with readers expectations? Sure. But that's all he's doing here, IMO.

===

ETA::::: :Let's not forget, Elan asks "Will this story have a happy ending". Not "Will I have a happy ending."

The story of the Order of the Stick isn't over yet. As far as I know at least.

[R. Malcovitch]

The Giant probably won't read this, but if you do:

That was a masterpiece. That must have taken so hard to make...


In any case, the implication that the Order is experiencing all of this is a bit disturbing... a LOT of time is being covered here. Are they standing there, motionless, for days and weeks and months on end?

[Giggling Ghast]

Shared hallucination, guys. Seriously.

[Icewraith]

Ceiling maybe, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's wrong for the walls, and Roy's skin tone changes when the runes glow in the last panel of the previous comic. Flipping back and forth between the two, probably not enough though. If this is a close up of an eye, it's closer to Roy's skin tone than any of the others' though.

Edit: no, it's probably not an eye, because that is the ceiling tone exactly and the line of the wall is curving and following the runes. So while being in the swirly effect is neat, it's not taking place within someone's eye. While the layout is still cool, I think that would have been cooler. So much for that theory...

[konradknox]

Will this story have a happy ending?
Yes, at least for you.


WELL TROLLED.

[Deepbluediver]

The thing is, Belkar does seem to genuinely want to be seen as a more valuable member of the group. He's been making allusions to that recently within the group, and he stated it outright when in private (and thus with no one to impress, except Mr. Scruffy). This doesn't necessarily make him nonevil: even bad guys like to feel appreciated.

It does mean he's not as much of a psychopath as one might otherwise be led to believe: he cares about at least some people's opinions of him, at least a little bit. That opens the door to making him scarier, though: what if this "betrayal" pushes him over the edge, and then we get a taste of what Belkar is really capable of? That kind of plot twist crosses into territory that isn't funny anymore, and for that reason, I don't think the strip will actually go there. But even dancing this close to the line is one heck of a way to build suspense.

You had it right in the first paragraph, then veered off course in the second. Thus far, I have not seen any evidence that Belkar actually wants to change or improve his image beyond making other people not want to actively kill him. He's (probably) undergoing some sort of character development, same as the rest of the order, but he still finds it amusing that the rest of the team barely tolerates his presence.

I've also yet to see any evidence that Belkar has any kind of hiden depths. His idea of evil is strictly: theft, murder, maybe some physical torture. Basically just things that make his life a little easier without too much effort. He doesn't go in for any of the psycological or emotional or overly complicated (Nale) stuff because he's just not that complex.

[goodyarn]

On behalf of the Reformed Church of Banjo, we think it's sweet that our great puppet deity has taken for himself a divine puppet consort. And what a hottie she is!

[Porthos]

BTW, the ONLY (and I do mean only) way that this could be the prophesied Happy Ending is if The Oracle was being an extreme Literal Jackass Genie. If you want to stretch things (a lot) he could be saying that the story did have a scene that showed a "Happy Ending". Thus the Oracle could say the story contained a happy ending while not ending on a happy ending for Elan.

But that's so far out the scale of Jackass Genie-ess as to create a whole nudder catagory.

Besides, as has been mentioned on more than one occasion on this thread, this interpetation runs directly counter to Rich's own commentary.

Now if people want to hold onto the illusion (heh ) that this update means that Elan might possibly have a Downer/Bittersweet Ending, knock yourselves out.

Just don't be surprised when your expectations for that don't occur.

[David Argall]

The pictures are a puzzle. There are a number of elements that seem unlikely for each of the 3 survivors, to say nothing of a lack of Belker elements, but there are elements that any one of the three might reject. We apparently see peace with the LG, an Elan element, but why the frown on Nale's face? That seems unlikely for Elan dreaming.
Possibly we are seeing a dream where the results are somewhat reasonable, [Belkar would find it reasonable that he not survive in such a weak condition, and that his cat dies tying to get revenge.] but then we have Elan on the dinosaur.
Of course, dreams are often a logical mess and that may be enough here. And it would seem the entire page is just decoration.

[EmperorSarda]

It does look like padding, at a time when the book i overlong. It does confirm that this is a delusion, and it's not bad of itself, but as said, it doesn't seem to advance the plot.

Cause getting caught in a trap and seeing how deep they are trapped doesn't advance the plot in any way whatsoever. Right.

[J0ebot]

Because of Rich's commentary on Elan's prophecy, I think it's safe to say that this isn't really the fulfillment of the prophecy and that Elan will still get a happy ending at the very end of the comic.

That being said, I think that after waking up from this hallucination Elan will think that maybe this is what the Oracle meant, and will start to worry about the future of the Order. I think this could be an interesting little twist in Elan's personality, as his optimism is hurt and he begins to wonder if things will really turn out well.

A few comics ago I made a post about how most of the Order has faced their greatest fears in this temple (Vaarsuvius seeing the full effects of true power, Durkon being turned away from Thor, Roy losing his best friend, Belkar dealing with guilt, and maybe even Mr. Scruffy's fear of the Hell Hound). This could be Elan's greatest fear: realizing that in the end, things might not be as great for everyone as he hopes.

[Porthos]

Cause getting caught in a trap and seeing how deep they are trapped doesn't advance the plot in any way whatsoever. Right.

Well you could just have a couple of panels of them mumbling.

But then that runs counter to the Show, Don't Tell philosophy.

[Rodrigo]

I sure hope it doesn't end here

[Deepbluediver]

Just don't be surprised when your expectations for that don't occur.

What?!? This is the internet!
My first interpretation is always right because I could never be wrong, and despite mounting evidence to the contrary I will defend my chosen stance to the death, even against the works original author.

/sarcasm

[ChristianSt]

BTW, the ONLY (and I do mean only) way that this could be the prophesied Happy Ending is if The Oracle was being an extreme Literal Jackass Genie. If you want to stretch things (a lot) he could be saying that the story did have a scene that showed a "Happy Ending". Thus the Oracle could say the story contained a happy ending while not ending on a happy ending for Elan.

But that's so far out the scale of Jackass Genie-ess as to create a whole nudder catagory.

Besides, as has been mentioned on more than one occasion on this thread, this interpetation runs directly counter to Rich's own commentary.

Now if people want to hold onto the illusion (heh ) that this update means that Elan might possibly have a Downer/Bittersweet Ending, knock yourselves out.

Just don't be surprised when your expectations for that don't occur.

mh, the Oracle being a Literal Jackass Genie is quite a possibility (at least considering all interaction he had with the Order), so I don't now how this arguments strengthens the point

But yeah, I know that Rich's said there will be a happy ending and I don't think he will not deliver it (and including Elan). But I like it that it could be a valid interpretation of the prophecy.

[mfgrady]

This is definitely all in Roy's head.

I think many people forget that while Roy wasn't around physically for a lot of the events being wrapped up, Roy was scrying on the party. We as readers have the same amount of knowledge that Roy has as we spent the whole 3 month skip following his celestial exploits.

The things he Didn't scry on, such as Thanh and Tsukiko being alive, are obviously incorrect.

All of the events are relevant to knowledge Roy has as well as his feelings toward the other characters (Haley being money hungry and Elan being childish etc).

[Lamech]

The oracle is the ultimate literal jackass genie. I don't see how anyone could think of anything else. How many of his answers have been utterly useless? He answers "yes" to X, Y, or Z questions. He leaves out details like "as a vampire". He is a *******. When asked where Xykon is, he says "in his throne room". He's an *******.

[Chainer-]

I don't normally post here but feel compelled to as not many people have raised how potentially messed up this is... I'm assuming time passes at a much faster rate within the illusion (Though Warmachine's theory is interesting (and horrific) - even if they had their biological needs looked after, the LG would have found them by now (and I assume the illusion/enchantment can't affect their undead members)).

The OOTS have potentially spent weeks? months? (longer?) in subjective time with every thing working out (more or less) perfectly, I assume they are in for a rather rude awakening which has got to be devastating to their already low morale. Interesting if Belkar has been imagining himself in some hell dimension for this time, quite possibly this will be the last straw and he will genuinely attempt to become good (which will of course tragically fail in something of a heel face door slam).

I'm leaning toward the it's all happening in one shared illusion though admittedly Kish does raise some valid counter evidence against it.