OOTS #887 - The Discussion Thread

[thereaper]

... they honestly cannot tell that this is an illusion?

Well, technically, it appears to be an enchantment effect rather than an illusion. Otherwise they wouldn't have the swirly eyes.

At first I thought it was Elan's. It's obvious right?

But then I realised that it shows a lot of Haley doing kick-butt things, and a lot of her getting the things she wants (killing Tsukiko, bathing in gold, Belkar is dead, etc.) and the more I looked at it, the more I want to say that this is Haley's dream, which happens to include Elan being happy because Haley loves him.

Or it could be a shared dream.

Or I'm thinking too hard, and it really is Elan's.

What's this? A wild cheesegear outside of the 40k threads? I've never had LOS to one of those before!

[Red.Tide]

To everyone who is puzzled by the reunion of the MitD and O-Chul, keep this in mind:

1. Haley and Belkar have encountered MitD (thus they would be able to imagine him appearing as he does). Additionally, they realized themselves that he was childlike and not particularly evil.

2. If you were O-Chul, after reuniting with the OOTS having spent so long influencing and bonding with the MitD, wouldn't telling Roy/Haley, "Hey, the MitD isn't evil; he's just naive and manipulated by Xykon and Redcloak. Do not kill him; rather, appeal to his better nature" be pretty high on your to-do list?

[Porthos]

I don't think so. War and XPs says Elan's prophecy refers to the end of the entire story and it's a word from the Giant to the audience not to worry too much when things get scary because it will all work out in the end. A prophecy twist wouldn't fit with that.

OTOH, I think it is pretty obvious that Rich is alluding to the title. I've noted in the past that the title has a voice of its own. Almost a character in its own right as it sarcastically/sardonically refers to/comments on the events of the comic.

In this case it is referencing the Happy Ending prophecy without fulfilling it.

[Francis Davey]

Man. Look at all the custom art that went into this piece. Many comics use mainly the basic character models. Nearly every panel here had to be drawn new, and it is done amazingly. Nice art, Rich. Very nice.

+1

I can barely imagine the amount of work that must have gone into this. In theory this is just one panel (with panels inside) but it represents the work that must normally go into several comics. Each scene has lots of detail that is important (eg Julia's frown that I referred to, Roy waving off Belkar's funeral) as well as being visually very different from other scenes.

[ti'esar]

So, after examining the center of the spiral, I can make out two, maybe three more actual panels in there after the one with O-Chul and the MitD: Elan with a lollipop, a panel with Roy and V-colored blurs, and one more that I can't identify anything about but does seem to have something happening. The last 4-5 are probably blank.

I'm also interested to note that Roy does remember the significance of the phylactery after all (and find the LOTR reference hilarious ). I'd assumed after 886 that he just forgot about it.

[SaintRidley]

Well, technically, it appears to be an enchantment effect rather than an illusion. Otherwise they wouldn't have the swirly eyes.

More likely, given Girard's predilections, a [Mind-Affecting] Illusion, probably a phantasm. Like an enchantment, but fooling the senses very completely.

[Codyage]

I don't think so. War and XPs says Elan's prophecy refers to the end of the entire story and it's a word from the Giant to the audience not to worry too much when things get scary because it will all work out in the end. A prophecy twist wouldn't fit with that.

However, the oracle says in response to Elan's question. "Yes, for you at least."

Which means when the entire story is over, Elan will have a happy ending. That can be interpreted to here, with Elan being happy in an illusion, and dying during it. He would have died in happiness.

[davidbofinger]

How did the Giant persuade Stanley Kubrick to do a guest strip? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/image...llconfused.gif

It might be interesting to line up the panels with the facial expressions.

• Roy is celebrating victory. The panels seem to line up pretty well.
  
  • One: Victory!
  • Two: Victory!
  • Three: Victory!
  • Six: Success!
  • Nine: Recognition
  • Fourteen: Friendship
• Elan is drooling, what does it mean? I thought maybe gorgeous women, but no evidence of that here. Maybe he's just a drooler.
  
  • Four: Fraternal and Filial love
  • Thirteen: Romantic love
  • Fifteen: Simple Hedonism
  • Eighteen: Simple Hedonism
• Haley doesn't look entirely happy. Her panels suggest she should be. On the other hand the first two are combat so maybe she's concentrating.
  
  • Five: Victory!
  • Eight: Victory!
  • Twelve: Treasure!
• Belkar looks distinctly unhappy.
  
  • Seven (Is this Belkar's?): I'm dead, Mr. Scruffy's dead, nobody cared to raise me, and Roy and V don't care. On the plus side, Durkon is alive.
• Hard to assign:
  
  • Ten: Focus is on V and Durkon. I guess Roy is the closest to the centre.
  • Eleven: Could be Roy, Haley or Elan.
  • Sixteen: Who cares about meeting the paladins again? Not obviously anyone. Not that O'Chul isn't an awesome guy.
  • Seventeen: O'Chul and the Monster in the Darkness resume their friendship. This really looks like the Monster's fantasy. I don't suppose he wandered in and got trapped by the runes? That seems unlikely. And would be weird. I suppose Elan is the next most likely to want it.

I think the match-up works best if we just look at the largest, outer panels.

[oppyu]

So... is this a joint illusion from all four, or parts of each member's illusion interspersed into one coherent narrative? I don't think all of this could be from one member; too many strips seem specific to one or two people. Roy and Haley probably wouldn't approve of Elan reuniting with his decidedly Evil family members, Haley and Elan probably don't care about Roy lording over his sister, Elan and Roy don't know the Azure City Resistance or the Thieves Guild well enough to picture Bozzok, Hank, the resistance leaders and Thanh, etc.

Also, I'm guessing that the next strip will be the paladins having infiltrated the temple, working together with the Linear Guild to try and unseat Xykon who's taken over the gate and inflicted significant casualties on both sides in the process. It's been a couple of weeks, and they're resurrecting the Order to try and launch a final assault to destroy the gate before Redcloak can give The Dark One the power to unmake reality.

[factotum]

I actually found the panel where Haley is fighting Tsukiko alongside Thanh and the others a little bit heartbreaking--they obviously don't know the Resistance are all dead.

[B. Dandelion]

However, the oracle says in response to Elan's question. "Yes, for you at least."

Which means when the entire story is over, Elan will have a happy ending. That can be interpreted to here, with Elan being happy in an illusion, and dying during it. He would have died in happiness.

I don't want to quote the whole passage at you because it's kind of lengthy and it's what people pay for when they get the compilations, but suffice it to say I highly doubt the author was trying to pull some kind of literal-wording-gotcha in the commentary that underlined the rationale behind putting reader's fears to rest with Elan's prophecy.

[JavaScribe]

The bardic principle of "plans only work if you keep them a secret first"? I'm pretty sure it applies here. It's kinda sad, Roy was so excited about his new sword technique, but useful though I'm sure it'll be, it's pretty unlikely to deal the finishing blow now.

[Porthos]

You know, I just realized something. This comic shows that deep down, Roy still wants to make amends/have a decent relationship with his father. It wasn't even a rub-it-in-his-face type thing.

Given everything they've been through, that's actually kinda sweet.

<NOTE: Please don't suggest the possibility to me that's Elan's happy happy worldview overriding things. I'm engaging in willful blindness on that point. >

[Chess Tyrant]

I don't want to quote the whole passage at you because it's kind of lengthy and it's what people pay for when they get the compilations, but suffice it to say I highly doubt the author was trying to pull some kind of literal-wording-gotcha in the commentary that underlined the rationale behind putting reader's fears to rest with Elan's prophecy.

Although you gotta admit, it'd be brilliantly evil if Elan died while imagining a happy future, and that counted as a happy ending.

[ti'esar]

I actually found the panel where Haley is fighting Tsukiko alongside Thanh and the others a little bit heartbreaking--they obviously don't know the Resistance are all dead.

Funnily enough, that panel actually struck me as one of the examples of how this isn't actually as happy an ending as it could be in reality, but that the Order doesn't realize. After everything we've seen up to this point, I'm inclined to think some kind of permanent peace between the Azurites and the goblins would be a much happier ending than just retaking the city by force.

[Porthos]

Although you gotta admit, it'd be brilliantly evil if Elan died while imagining a happy future, and that counted as a happy ending.

No. No it would not be.

IMNSHO, that is.

[Dracon1us]

Hi everybody
a new addict is in town

I just want to congratulate the author for how beautiful your art has become...the last strip is awesome , with an insane attention to the detail

your visuals are matching your storytelling...and that's saying something

thanks 4 everything

ps
to me Belkar will be the first to awake

[Blaknic]

The bardic principle of "plans only work if you keep them a secret first"? I'm pretty sure it applies here. It's kinda sad, Roy was so excited about his new sword technique, but useful though I'm sure it'll be, it's pretty unlikely to deal the finishing blow now.

Oh, of course. Having the actual final fight with Xykon be a fundamental repeat of this one would be a tad...anticlimatic. So, either there will be a twist during the fight, changing the plan, or Xykon won't be the BBEG and get the climatic battle after all.

Also, I am going to back up Dandelion on this one- Mr. Giant showed a "prophesy twist" with Belkar, and it didn't fly then. I don't think that a prophesy that basically states "The plucky bard will have a happy story" will be twisted, and besides- the prophesy states that his story will be happy. Elan doesn't have to be happy or unhappy at his death, as his emotional condition has no effect on the happiness of his story. Dying in a mind controlled haze in the basement of some ziggurat isn't a happy ending to a story, no matter how happy Elan is at the time. This is not the end.


EDIT: Also, I think that the order is under the effect of an epic Illusion (phantasm) homebrewed to be the opposite of Weird, sort of.

[zql]

Excellent, brilliant, outstanding strip. The mixed emotions are killing me. It's so bitter to see this (im)possible happy ending, but yet it is so touching to see like this the dreams and hopes of these characters.

I loved the panels with Durkon and V rebuilding the Gate and Belkar's funeral. Very OoTScrible style.

[nonamearisto]

Well, unlike the Superman story I've mentioned twice, they don't seem to be in any actual danger due to the illusion. At least not yet. It isn't feeding off of their life force or anything. Although if they are there for a long time, they could die of thirst or something. I doubt it will come to that.

[NeeL]

I believe this is all Elan's imagination.

Some of these things where mentioned by others, but I'm to lazy search back for them to quote them, sorry.

Elan wants a happy and story-worth theatrical ending. A death in the group for a good cause always works to make it a good dramatic story.
I think, he imagines for everybody how they would want to their lives to continue, in stead of everybody having their own illusions.

For example: Roy already met his father in the afterlife. Why would Roy suddenly think his father has wings and sits on a single cloud? Roy's been there and knows how his father and the afterlife looks like, Elan doesn't.
(EDIT: Nevermind, Roy saw the coexistent demiplane his father was waiting in because of the Blood Oath.
EDIT2:No, I was right in some way, Roy has been in the actual afterlife and saw how people live there without wings.)
Also, Roy would want to make sure the phylactery is destroyed in a controlled way, knowing it's definitely destroyed. Not by throwing it in a volcano lava which has theatrical movie ending written all over it.

[Morquard]

Uh oh...

My first thought:
Title "Happy Ending" ...
"How will this end?" - "For you? With a Happy Ending"

Could Elan die before the Illusion is broken, thinking all is well and happy?

My second thought:
Naw... that wouldn't happen, would it? There's an afterlife and at the latest at that point Elan would realize and be less than happy. Unless... Banjo fools him into thinking all is well and happy still, to not ruin his afterlife.

Third thought:
Damn it could happen, but I really really hope it doesn't.

[Mike Havran]

Just...wow. This strip is so amazing on many levels, but so ominous and sad on others, as maybe half of panels are beyond reasonable possibility of happenning "in reality".

Also, I wonder why Belkar has no dream there. None would be very nice I guess It can be seen which are Roy's, Haley's, Elan's (or some could be "shared"), but clearly, no one belongs to Belkar. Could that mean HE will be the one that breaks from the illusion first?

Also, hats off to Girard. That is a brilliant defense. If your foes are so determined that they assault the pyramid, they are bound to have a big goal. So why not fulfill it for them? Give them dream of all they desire, and they will not even want to leave it and return to the bleak, depressing and uncertain reality. And after a few days, a couple of defenders will put on Girard's Dreamworld Ward and collect the dead bodies from the corridor.

[Bret_Hawkeye]

Stop messing with my head, Mr. Burlew.

Can't wait to see the reality again.

[Scowling Dragon]

You know what I realized? That this is the standard D&D adventure progression.

This is how OOTs would play out in an Ordinary adventure.

[Bulldog Psion]

Excellent, brilliant, outstanding strip. The mixed emotions are killing me. It's so bitter to see this (im)possible happy ending, but yet it is so touching to see like this the dreams and hopes of these characters.

Yes, it's actually pretty dark that most of their happy endings can happen only in an illusion. Hits a little too close to real life, in a way. Which, of course, makes it genius, too.

Roy defeats Xykon with the might of his good right arm -- highly unlikely.
Elan, Nale, and Tarquin reconcile -- impossible.
Haley fights alongside the resistance -- impossible.
Durkon is alive and well, shares their victory, goes drinking happily with them -- "never, til the sun fails and the moon is dead."
Various reconciliations with parents -- maaaybe.

Pretty sad, really, how many of their hopes are totally impossible.

[Morquard]

Also, I wonder why Belkar has no dream there. None would be very nice I guess It can be seen which are Roy's, Haley's, Elan's (or some could be "shared"), but clearly, no one belongs to Belkar. Could that mean HE will be the one that breaks from the illousion first?

Honestly I think last strip was Roy's illusion. Straight up fight, wacking Xykon.

This is Elan's. An epic story with wrapping up all the loose ends and everyone's happy at the end. The panels not about Elan are him imagining what would be "best" for everyone.

I think we'll be seeing Belkar's soon, maybe where he kills everyone. Or where he realizes that killing everyone is not actually what would make him most happy. And then he dies for real.

[Lorcan]

Dear Giant,

Thank you.

Fantastic art. Fantastic writing. Love #887.

[Bulldog Psion]

This is Elan's. An epic story with wrapping up all the loose ends and everyone's happy at the end. The panels not about Elan are him imagining what would be "best" for everyone.

Much as I like your theory, panel 5 includes people Elan never met (Thanh and Niu), and panel 9 involves rubbing Julia's nose in Roy's success (a pure Roy fantasy, and again, I don't think Elan ever met her, he had been replaced by Nale by then).

[jidasfire]

Beautifully done comic. To address the concern that this comic might be burning daylight in an already long arc with several loose ends still hanging, I would say it is necessary, just to show the power and scope of the illusion in question. We might have assumed that this was an epic spell that holds on and doesn't let go, but now we're sure of it, and we see that it is giving the victims exactly what they want, spiraling out into infinity. I believe it was Alan Moore who said that happiness is the most insidious prison of all, and it seems Girard agrees.

On a sad note, the ending beats are pretty much how optimistic readers had been expecting the comic to end. What's painful about that is, even if we ignore the contradictory to reality bits, it seems like this could be interpreted as a message from the author, as to say, "See all that stuff? Yeah, none of that's going to happen." I do hope I'm wrong about that, and I know we're promised a happy ending from at least one perspective, but I suspect that it won't in any way resemble the one we're now seeing.