OOTS #888 - The Discussion Thread

[Xelbiuj]

I agree with people. Lack of Belkar is very suspicious. This seems to all-Elan illusion, not at all tied to anything else. And he has the old adversary Linear Guild being a happy part of process, including the members who left a while ago.

And yet he has no place for Belkar?! Sure, Roy might be fed up with Belkar and has no problems with Belkar being dead; but what is Belkar doing not being there in Elan's happy vision?

Belkar died during the fight with Xykon, why would he come back? Raise dead?
In Belkar's own paraphrased words, if the afterlife is better why accept the revive when they're just going to punish you anyways?

Several of the panels on the previous comic were almost certainly not Elan's.
Who is to say other events haven't transpired? Rich is only showing us this* wedding but they could have all lived a lifetime in . . .hours?

[LordRahl6]

I'll have to agree that this strip belongs to Elan, (if not the entire illusion/enchantment?) because its full wish fullfilment along Elan's character atributes and story. That being said it will never happen. The two diametrically opposed parents reuniting, yeah right.

[Doctor Awkward]

Just wanted to pop by and talk about the last few strips. I personally am really enjoying them because I love getting character insight, but I could totally understand why some people aren't.
It's frustrating to see the characters totally at the mercy of their own desires. And given that we, the audience, know that none of it is real, we know that nothing that happens actually matters. I can all but guarantee that had this illusion mini-arc been released in a huge burst of strips that shows us the resolution, every single person would probably say it was one of their favorite moments of the entire comic. But the nature of the sparse update schedule makes it difficult to stay emotionally invested.
So moving on...

I know Rich really doesn't like rules speculation when it comes to the comic... but I do:
We know that Girard is a very high level illusionist, and in Lord Shojo's own words (panel 7) relies upon them entirely to protect his gate.
A lot of people speculated that it was some sort of enchantment (due to the swirly eyes). To that I would like to point out two things:
1) Each and every time a person has been enchanted the eyes have been yellow. Here they are purple. except here, thanks for blowing up my theory Giant My explanation for this is that since Yukyuk's skin and natural eye color is yellow, the Giant needed to make it distinctive to be clear that he is enchanted. Anyway...
2) One of the subsets of the illusion school is phantasms, which manifest only in the minds of the victims, and this effect is perfectly and completely valid within the rules. So this trap was a pretty impessive display of system knowledge to me.

While this could easily be a homebrewed epic spell, there is actually a 9th level spell, Solipism, in the Spell Compendium which is a phantasm and causes the victim to believe that everything the entire world is an illusion, and could easily be refluffed to function exactly like what is happening.
I'm curious as to the Giant's inspiration for this trap, because I think it would be a neat effect to subject a real party too.

There is also a lot of speculation as to whether or not this is a shared illusion or what each person individually perceives. A lot of things that happen have left me scratching my head in that regard too, and I was left wondering simply: why?

If Rich wanted to, he could easily show us which character is visualizing which scenario by having a single close-up panel of that person in the beginning of each strip. It would spoil nothing since the audience already knows this is an illusion. For the moment I'm assuming there is a good reason he doesn't do this, but it still has me wondering.
The point of this mini-arc is to provide insight to character motivation, so what do you gain from a narrative standpoint by not making it clear who is imagining what? The only conclusion I can reach is that nothing would be gained, and the reason he doesn't make it clear that these are individual scenarios is because it is one big group illusion.

[Liliet]

I agree with people. Lack of Belkar is very suspicious. This seems to all-Elan illusion, not at all tied to anything else. And he has the old adversary Linear Guild being a happy part of process, including the members who left a while ago.

And yet he has no place for Belkar?! Sure, Roy might be fed up with Belkar and has no problems with Belkar being dead; but what is Belkar doing not being there in Elan's happy vision?

If it`s all-Elan illusion why are there little children who want to be fighters as they grow up? Why would Elan have thought of that? Even if his worldview included children dreaming to become adventurers as something desirable, wouldn`t they want to become bards just like him? It`s clearly Roy`s bit of wish fulfillment.

1) Each and every time a person has been enchanted the eyes have been yellow. Here they are purple. except here, thanks for blowing up my theory Giant My explanation for this is that since Yukyuk's skin and natural eye color is yellow, the Giant needed to make it distinctive to be clear that he is enchanted.

No, it`s just the individual magic color of each magic user. Both times you showed yellow eyes were Nale doing the enchantment, and his magic is yellow. V`s magic is pink, and Girard`s magic is purple.

While this could easily be a homebrewed epic spell, there is actually a 9th level spell, Solipism, in the Spell Compendium which is a phantasm and causes the victim to believe that everything the entire world is an illusion, and could easily be refluffed to function exactly like what is happening.

I don`t think illusion spells can be refluffed just like that. Making a person believe that everything around is just Matrix is one thing, and completely taking them our of real world is another. These effects can`t be of the same level, if I understand D&D magic rules correctly.

I'm curious as to the Giant's inspiration for this trap, because I think it would be a neat effect to subject a real party too.

This effect is nothing new, see here. And I`m not sure about that. It could be neat, or it could cause a lot of frustration. You`d need a lot of talent and luck (or skill and experience, choose whichever you like) to pull if off correctly.

There is also a lot of speculation as to whether or not this is a shared illusion or what each person individually perceives. A lot of things that happen have left me scratching my head in that regard too, and I was left wondering simply: why?

If Rich wanted to, he could easily show us which character is visualizing which scenario by having a single close-up panel of that person in the beginning of each strip. It would spoil nothing since the audience already knows this is an illusion. For the moment I'm assuming there is a good reason he doesn't do this, but it still has me wondering.
The point of this mini-arc is to provide insight to character motivation, so what do you gain from a narrative standpoint by not making it clear who is imagining what? The only conclusion I can reach is that nothing would be gained, and the reason he doesn't make it clear that these are individual scenarios is because it is one big group illusion.

I think Rich has given enough in-comic hints that this is a group illusion. Especially in this one, where Roy gets fighter fanboys and fangirls and Elan gets his parents` wedding in one continuity.

[SaintRidley]

I don`t think illusion spells can be refluffed just like that. Making a person believe that everything around is just Matrix is one thing, and completely taking them our of real world is another. These effects can`t be of the same level, if I understand D&D magic rules correctly.

Solipsism makes you think that your reality is the Matrix and you need to get out. Microcosm puts you in the Matrix without a clue you're in the Matrix (which matches up pretty well to what we see here, and is an effect of the same level.

What we're seeing here is probably an Epic and improved version of Microcosm.

But, yeah, this is all very clearly a shared illusion going on. And it is awesome.

[Holy_Knight]

My two takeaway thoughts -

1. Who in the group of four that is presently hallucinating actually knows Inkyrius enough to have a semi-accurate mental image of her to insert her into this scene?

While it was necessary given the strip layout anyway, keep in mind that we're seeing Inkyrius only from behind. You know how in a dream you sometimes "see" a person, but their face is not distinct? It's possible that's what's going on here. They have enough information about V's mate to imagine "Inkyrius" being there, even without knowing eactly what he or she looks like.

2. V looks pretty feminine here. Granted, that's only showing us what at least one person in the hallucinating group thinks about V's gender, but the group does include Haley, the one member of the order who we have any reason to suspect may know V's gender.

Actually, it's most likely that that's Roy's perception of Vaarsuvius, since he's the one encountering V in that scene.

I love that this post has comprised roughly 30% of the last two discussion threads on the comic. I mean, it obviously needs saying.

Also, I can barely even begin to wrap my head around complaining that all we're getting is deep insights into the psychology of the characters, as though that somehow doesn't matter in and of itself. Yes, we're not sure who is dreaming what exactly (though the 'shared illusion' hypothesis is becoming more likely) but we're clearly getting to see thoughts that would be nigh impossible to express in any other fashion to this degree of depth.

The characters matter. Their thoughts matter. Who they are as people matters. In point of fact, it's practically the only thing that matters, because if you don't have characters with some depth and believability, with real hopes and dreams and a rich inner world that is usually only hinted at in the periphery, then nothing else matters.

I don't think it would rankle me so much if it weren't for the serialization. We're seeing each page of a story as it gets cranked out, and we're in the middle of a scene. Anyone who thinks they know how much value these scenes have to both the short-term and long-term arcs are either The Giant or deluded.

Well said.

So Elan would rather that his parents get back together than marry Haley? Huh.

I don't think it's a matter of preference, but rather a matter of timing. Part of Elan's character has always been desire for a real and stable family--he grew up without a father, had been abandoned by several people throughout his life, and latched onto Roy as a surrogate big brother/older male figure that he looks up to, all before falling in love with Haley. So, that desire gets "fulfilled" first, because that has been one of his defining features for longer. He probably has every intention and expectation that he and Haley will get married, but his parental issues just come first in the order of events.

To add some other thoughts, like many have said, I absolutely love the Empress of Blood as a bridesmaid! I laugh every time I see her there, especially since she has that smile on her face! Mr. and Mrs. Banjo are a nice touch as well. One thing I wonder is what was actually supposed to be contained in the pre-nuptial agreement, and whether that might actually be relevant to the plot or to breaking out of the illusion somehow. It's interesting to think about what Elan would imagine his father wanting/needing to sign before getting married--especially since I wouldn't normally expect him to think about a pre-nup at all.

[Morgath]

[QUOTE=Reddish Mage;15254010]1. Regarding whether its individual threads or a gestalt, we have yet to conclude. My opinion is it is a gestalt as individual fantasies take more strips, dragging things a bit, and other people's fantasies are not necessarily as fun as this illusion thread.

2. It's been discussed in many threads and numerous posters have made these points regarding Belkar are: 1. Belkar has shown some regret and recognition of his immorality in several strips recently, while the Order still sees him as a menace 2. Belkar is unlikely to be raised by the party, especially post-final battle, and likely doesn't see a place for himself after the battle. 3. Consequently, being dead and written out of the happy ending is consistent with the entire parties view of things, including Belkar's.

3. The strips as written are consistent with a gestalt view, and your explanation here shows how complicated the individual fantasy view would be in telling the story (Elan's version of the Xykon battle should be different or even non-existent, why doesn't Xykon regret his evil ways and go get ice cream? Why don't the Azurites and Goblins create a bination-state?)/QUOTE]

It's nice to hear a decent summery that is easy for me to work with. I guessed that it was hard to tell if it's a combined dream or illusion. I find it a little hard to tell the truth of a combined illusion without seeing Belkars viewpoint however. Maybe other comics will fill the gaps.

4. Elan's question to the oracle is "will this story have a happy ending" and the answer is "for you-at least." The illusion is not the story referred to.

This is probably the only reason I stick to the idea that each fantasy is individual. It fulfils Elans prophecy without conflicting with others prophecies, which is well in the line of the way the Oracle works. Why should he(it/her) stick to the actual truth and not a vision) Each prophecy has been twisted to the extreme, Conciser Durkon's Why not fulfil a fantasy if it serves its purpose and is true (for a given value of)

In the end it is a matter for interpretation, and your word is a good as mine. Am interested in the possibilities however, and you make some good points.

[LuPuWei]

Didn't see the last panel coming But having seen it, Awwwww...

[Shale]

This is probably the only reason I stick to the idea that each fantasy is individual. It fulfils Elans prophecy without conflicting with others prophecies, which is well in the line of the way the Oracle works. Why should he(it/her) stick to the actual truth and not a vision) Each prophecy has been twisted to the extreme, Conciser Durkon's Why not fulfil a fantasy if it serves its purpose and is true (for a given value of)

We have the Giant's word, in the "War and XPs" commentary, that the "ending" the Oracle was talking about is the end of the comic. Which this is (hopefully!) not.

[The Troubadour]

Aw, man. An entire strip just to show that Eland DID have his happy ending and now none of the protagonists are safe.
Friggin' overly-literal-Oracle.

[Kish]

To that I would like to point out two things:
1) Each and every time a person has been enchanted the eyes have been yellow. Here they are purple. except here, thanks for blowing up my theory Giant My explanation for this is that since Yukyuk's skin and natural eye color is yellow, the Giant needed to make it distinctive to be clear that he is enchanted. Anyway...

Try, "Yellow is Nale's magic color, when someone is enchanted by him their eyes are yellow; purple is Vaarsuvius' magic color, and if you'd linked Vaarsuvius hypnotizing the young black dragon and Yukyuk you could make as good, or as bad, a case that enchanted people always have purple eyes."

[Morgath]

We have the Giant's word, in the "War and XPs" commentary, that the "ending" the Oracle was talking about is the end of the comic. Which this is (hopefully!) not.

I think that I will have to read that again to get it in some kind of context. I have an interpretation that something in a vision from the Oracle mgiht not be completely kosher and yet completely true with the way Rich has presented the truth so far. It is hard to tell how to see things, and he has shown a way of telling the truth and still misleading the audience, so am not saying I disbelieve the word of god, just I know it doesn't always go to plan as it were.

[Kish]

I do not remember Rich spelling out that by "ending" he meant the ending.

However, I wonder how many times he'd have to use the word "ending" for it to be valid. "By ending, I mean the ending, by which I mean the ending, by which I mean the ending, but not the ending of this sentence because this is the sentence that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends..."

[Sunken Valley]

Purple is Girard's Colour

Here he hides the gate.

Here he trolls Soon

Purple is his colour.

[Shale]

I do not remember Rich spelling out that by "ending" he meant the ending.

The direct quote is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending."

[JackRackham]

So, this strip is OBVIOUSLY Elan's illusion. Good God. But that really just means it was pulled from Elan's empty, pretty little head. Just like the first strip seems to have been pulled from Roy's head. What I'm wondering is if they can all see these same hallucinations. If so, I wonder if Elan's ludicrous imaginings might be WTF enough to clue the rest of them in that something's wrong? Or if someone else's might not be dramatically appropriate, cluing Elan in to what's going on?

One way or another, they've got to get out of this somehow, right?

[Morgath]

The direct quote is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending."

That is more definite. So am probably wrong. Maybe Elan will cling on to his happy illusionary fantasy despite the evidence. Who knows in his mind?

[otakuryoga]

Damn You!
Damn you all, you really did it!
.
.
.
you threw up a curve i wasn't expecting

[JackRackham]

The direct quote is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending."

Unless THIS is the end of the entire shebang

EDIT: I know Rich has said there would be X more books. I know this is not the ending. I just wanted to be dramatic...or did I? Dun Dun DUN! No, really.

[Kish]

The direct quote is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending."

While I remain mystified by the necessity, under the circumstances, I am grateful for the existence.

[rgrekejin]

Actually, it's most likely that that's Roy's perception of Vaarsuvius, since he's the one encountering V in that scene.

Yeah, I know. I don't really think we're actually getting any sort of useful information about V's gender here. However, since I personally have always read V as female, I do enjoy the fact that for at least one panel, she gets to appear slightly more feminine.

[sam79]

"Several people dreaming about the end of the story" does not equal "the end of the story."

Just as "several people dreaming about a psychotic halfling dying" is not the same as "a psychotic halfling dying."

[Shale]

While I remain mystified by the necessity, under the circumstances, I am grateful for the existence.

That describes so, so much of this forum.

[Bron Baraz]

I have no idea where all the angst about A) the pacing and B) the idea that the comic is ending is coming from.

There's an old Scots saying my grandma always used when we didn't like the look of something she was cooking: "fools and bairns shouldn't see things half done". So it is with webcomics

[jukehero461]

This is complete and utter speculation on my part, but I think Roy may be catching on...

[RolyPoly]

For all the people wondering why different characters show up (V, the linear guild, the empress of blood)
I'm guessing that this is evidence of a shared vision, where the spell-trap is doing it's best to accomadate everyone.

Also, it could be having an enchanting (the spell type) influence on those caught in it's grasp, which is why everyone is "happy" with this version of events, even if it makes little sense with regards to their normal personality or history. That's why even though this is an Elan-centric fantasy, we still get the intro with it focused on Roy.

Which makes me think that at some point, the spell will start to fail because it can't juggle everyone's desires all at once.


Edit: And yes, the Empress of Blood is frelling adorable.

Yeah, I think that's the weak point of the trap. It's already filtered out Belkar's contribution (too bloody?), and now Roy is starting to look a bit doubtful at this turn of events in the last panel. Also, "Elan's Mum" lacks a certain authenticity as a phrase in a wedding ceremony.

It would be a triumph for Elan's inner idiot if it's the impossibility of reconciling his sweet but inane world view with the more realistic dreams of the rest of the Order that wrecks the illusion.

[Snails]

My guess is

Spoiler

Show

we'll see a few more illusions, with increasingly evident cracks in the fake reality (along the lines of Elan's mother not being referenced by name), until one of them (probably Roy or Haley) realizes what's happening.

I hope so!

The Dream Trap is a wonderful story telling device that allows the author to show the same characters from a really different point of view, showing funny where we normally see serious and vice versa.

There is a reason both the Trouble With Tribbles and Mirror, Mirror are beloved by hard core Trekkies. A sparingly used different way to advance the characters, a seemingly very offbeat approach has the potential for greatness.

[Octopusapult]

I no longer believe each member of the order is experiencing a different illusion.

Roy is being a celebrated fighter in this one, while in my opinion if it were Elan's specific Illusion, he'd be seen more as "Elan's best friend."

Also, I doubt that Elan would dream for Belkar to be dead, Roy I don't doubt for a moment would have Belkars death a happy moment, but it doesn't strike me for Elan.

This has got to be a shared illusion.

[David Argall]

OK. It's a nice strip, but it is still just a waste of space.

It's a dream. We can neither say something has happened, or will happen. Nor can we say it didn't or won't. Is there character development? Maybe, maybe not. Any such point will have to be confirmed in future strips, which means they do not need to be mentioned here at all. We get maybe a scene in the future where Elan maybe says he saw his parents remarried and now considers that a goal to cause/prevent. But we will need to have that scene anyway and the wedding scene is just not needed.
In the middle of a book, the meaningless strip is no big thing, but the current book is already the longest yet, and needs ending, not padding. This is the sort of page that belongs in the printed & expanded version.

[eyeprofet]

By the time I get around to reading the forums, someone has usually already posted what I would have contributed making a reply from me unnecessary.

In this instance I feel most are forgetting a very important fact in regards to the current strips, which is: this part of the arc (and future book) must come to an end eventually. While others have been conscious of how long the Order's adventures on the Western Continent have been taking, I think most have assumed it would end with the destruction of Girard's gate.

While each book has bonus material and extra strips included, if we compare the number of online strips in each book we see that this current arc is already longer than any of the previous ones.

Books:______________________Strips:____(Total):
Dungeon Crawlin' Fools..............#001 - 121 (120)
No Cure for the Paladin Blues......#121 - 301 (180)
War and XPs...........................#302 - 484 (182)
Don't Split the Party.................#485 - 672 (187)
Time on Western Continent........#673 - 887 (214)

I believe that strip #887 (Happy Ending) is most likely the end of the current arc/book. It provides a great stopping point, and allows for a change in the story's tempo starting with #888 (Dream Wedding). The story can slow back down while in this illusionary world and provide us with insight into the Order that we normally would not have time to stop for given the previous strips' pacing. It also reminds me a great deal of Roy's time in afterlife.

Now I of course could have it all wrong and The Giant may very well be planning on having a massive book that does in fact end with resolution of Girard's gate. I do know that I will enjoy finding out either way.