E2: Workable?

[Flickerdart]

Hitting someone in the neck is a critical hit, not a regular hit by any stretch of the imagination. And even then, not every blow to the neck will be lethal, and of the lethal blows, not every one will be immediately lethal.

[Logic]

If you want to rework the E6 scenario for lower level play, E4 is a much better place to stop than level 2.

My reasons are:
Full BAB=4, Medium BAB=3, Poor BAB=2
Ability score bonus at level 4,
Good saving throws are probably at +4, others are +1 (Barring any multiclassing shenanigans)
Primary casters have access to second level spells.

Plus look at the monsters in the range for the E4 party to fight that happen to be DEATHTRAPS to a 2nd level party:
Aboleth CR7
Bulette CR7
Chaos Beast CR7
Dire Cat CR8
Efrreti CR8
Hill Giant CR7
Mummy CR5 (low end, but Mummy Rot is DEVASTATING)
Succubus CR7
T-Rex CR8


EDIT:

The thing which appears to be missing from E2 is that the variance of "what it takes to knock someone out" is a lot bigger in real life than it is in-game. Yes, hitting someone on the head with a hammer could knock them unconscious. It won't always do it, though. On the other hand, it might give them a long-term issue, which it won't do in-game.

The problem with this line of thinking is that if you translate the rules of D&D to a literal interpretation of the events happening, we all just take turns clubbing each other over the head until someone can no longer do it.

The rules are an approximation of a swordfight*, and hit points are an abstract way of depicting that you dodge, and parry, and set up your opponent for a lethal strike. HP represent some level of knowing to dodge, to roll with a hit, and show that fatigue is just as much a problem in a swordfight as the pointy end of your foe's sword.


*Or shooting contest, or whatever else you can think of.

[137beth]

Hitting someone in the neck is a critical hit, not a regular hit by any stretch of the imagination.

Well what do you know, an orc can only one-hit-kill someone on a critical hit!

And even then, not every blow to the neck will be lethal, and of the lethal blows, not every one will be immediately lethal.

And not every critical hit is an instant kill in E2, either.

[Flickerdart]

Well what do you know, an orc can only one-hit-kill someone on a critical hit!

Wrong. An average commoner has 2 HP, so an orc kills them on max damage without a crit.

[Gavinfoxx]

I was not counting critical hits. This was intentional, just like you were intentionally not counting the possibility of a miss, or the possibility of dealing less than max damage.

Uh, I was asking how much damage a MM Orc can do on a crit.. There is only one answer to that question, which you seem to ignore as if that never happens. The thing is, before level 3, crits that take you from full to -10 or beyond... which is a problem if you are supposed to invest much any energy into these characters!

[137beth]

Uh, I was asking how much damage a MM Orc can do on a crit.. There is only one answer to that question, which you seem to ignore as if that never happens. The thing is, before level 3, crits that take you from full to -10 or beyond... which is a problem if you are supposed to invest much any energy into these characters!

Yea, and I somehow missed the word "crit" in your post, so I responded as if you hadn't written it
But yes, crits can have the possibility of doing instant-kills (not garenteed, even after you confirm your crit, it depends on the damage roll). Oddly enough, "crits" (hitting on the neck or other weak-point) can still kill someone quickly in real life, or in any "realistic" fiction, and I can still get invested in the characters. It just means people are more hesitant about charging into battle if they know that a lucky attack roll (natural 20) plus a lucky confirmation roll plus a lucky damage roll could kill them right away. That's sorta the point.

[Augmental]

and I can still get invested in the characters.

But would you still write out a long backstory, go into detail on their appearance, etc. for every character, knowing that there's a decent chance that all that work could be undone by one unlucky roll?

[Raineh Daze]

1/20 of attacks, minimum, will threaten crits. At this level, confirming it is kind of likely, especially if you don't have plate yet. So the damage gets multiplied. Even with maximum health and con, you're not going to survive many fights before sheer bad luck ends you.

[ArcturusV]

I suppose it comes down to a bit of Game Theory, and how typical people get out of situations.

Say there is a situation where a Fighter is the last man standing, and needs to win a battle for whatever reason, plot relevance, etc.

Anyway, point being, you can look at the outcomes in various ways, and with most people, can figure out the correct results.

Say it's a level 2 Fighter against a band of 8 Kobolds (Which if I remember off the top of my head should, by CR calc, be an even fight). Now, if the Fighter's Player is a smart player, he realizes the odds are fairly stacked against him. Action Economy, the fact that Critical Hits favor the side with more attackers, etc.

Versus another situation where said level 2 Fighter is against two Orcs.

Now... If the Fighter is going to go down to the Kobolds, it's likely to be the result of lucky dice rolls and critical hits. But the player kind of expects that. When you're getting 8-1 attacks against you, it's a lot more likely someone in the 8 is going to roll good than you are. If the Fighter dies? Well, he's bummed. But he kinda expected it. Might think about how he would have done that differently, found choke points, ran away. It's a lesson for next time, his next character will be better.

If the Fighter wins against the Kobolds? He knows it was a hard fight, he had a serious chance of losing it. Luck was on his side, but it had to be coupled with good planning. Feels amazing about it, and is pumped to continue on the adventures of Fighter McBadass.

Now the Orc fighting fighter? The odds aren't against him. It's only 2-1. He's probably going to lose still, it's a serious threat. But Luck is a much better factor. If he goes down because some lucky Crit inflicts 90% (Or more) of his HP in a single strike, how's that player feeling? Like the whole thing was BS. He lost BECAUSE of random luck that he had no way of planning for or preventing. It's a much bigger nerd rage enducer than the Kobold fight, and worst yet, he blames the Luck for the entire loss, overlooking things he might have done differently to win, learns nothing, and will make the same mistake later.

Orcs fighting the Fighter and he wins? He often feels like he didn't learn anything either. The battle didn't feel "Tactical". He wasn't a badass. He just stood there, traded shots, and lucked out and dropped the Orcs before they lucked out and carved him like a thanksgiving turkey. He'll have complaints about "Rocket Tag" and such, and about how the fight more or less boiled down to whoever landed a solid hit first and lucked out on the D20 roll and/or Initiative Check.

So it's just a bit of game theory. It's why I tend to try to avoid fights like that where, at low levels, it feels like it boiled down to just whoever wins Initiative or gets a lucky 20. Hard to do. But not impossible. E2 however would be entirely like that. Not counting possible cheese, every fight you have to worry about how "Random Luck" might ruin someone's day or how fights always feel like "Rocket Tag". Since you'll never get stronger than that, the tricks you use to avoid those things will end up feeling old, played, and no longer pose an interest after a while. You're also preventing players from fulfilling concepts they might otherwise like. Sometimes the guy playing the Fighter really does want to just Hulk Out, wade into battle, and smash mooks to pieces, feeling like a Badass warrior without having to worry about some random 1/2 CR critter instagibbing him. You're robbing him of the chance to ever do that.

E3? E4? Least you get a little extra padding so that a Lucky Crit doesn't automatically drop you into bleeding out. It can still have those problems, but not as much. E6? I can't imagine that's a problem at all.

[Fyermind]

Most RPGs have some sort of plot armor. Plot armor dictates that bad things will happen, but you won't die unless you do something really stupid or literally ask for it OOC.

D&D doesn't. Instead D&D makes adventurers fairly hard to kill in concept and makes bringing dead ones back an eventuality rather than a possibility. The thing is, in e2 this won't happen. Without some sort of plot armor, you wouldn't be stars of your own story.

Sure you might be, but you also would be quite likely to die inconsequentially right at the beginning if you ever fight anyone. Attacks aren't accurate enough for it to really even be rocket tag. I'd suggest playing a d20 variant like Thieves World if you are looking for the gritty feel.

[137beth]

1/20 of attacks, minimum, will threaten crits. At this level, confirming it is kind of likely, especially if you don't have plate yet. So the damage gets multiplied. Even with maximum health and con, you're not going to survive many fights before sheer bad luck ends you.

Well then, I guess people in an E2 world wouldn't hastily rush into a bunch of combats without thinking about it

[Just to Browse]

Well then, I guess people in an E2 world wouldn't hastily rush into a bunch of combats without thinking about it

You mean people in an E2 world would never fight ever. Because dying randomly to 1/20 rolls from equivalent-CR opponent means you don't want to even leave your house to attack the wolves raiding your sheep.

I think it's a scenario that isn't useful for modeling anything remotely cool and it makes your initial ability score roll more important than ever (ew), and makes plate armor and touch attacks overpowered as crap, but if you can think of cool things for a setting like that and you're fine with the problems it brings up, then go ahead. Ain't nobody going to stop you.

At least fewer builds get borked with it. And toughness becomes remotely worthwhile.

[Tavar]

I'd point out that picking someone up and carrying them away is pretty much impossible, assuming medium sized creatures. Oh, you can do it, but it's going to destroy your movement speed, which is, you know, what you're going to be using in order to get away.

[Bakkan]

You mean people in an E2 world would never fight ever. Because dying randomly to 1/20 rolls from equivalent-CR opponent means you don't want to even leave your house to attack the wolves raiding your sheep.

But to not deal with the wolf means not eating come slaughtering season. Which is why people hunt wolves in groups. Because if there are 15 guys facing a single wolf, it's probable that at least 3 or 4 of them will beat the wolf's initiative and will be able to chuck their spears at him before he gets a chance to rip someone's throat out.

An E2 game would necessitate planning, strategy, and tactics, as well as (probably) hirelings, guard animals, and so forth. If every attack has a 1/20 chance of killing you outright, your best bet is to stack the odds so far in your favor that they never get a chance to attack in the first place.

I would be interested in playing a game like this, and I think it's a good idea.

[awa]

I would say that some people like massive lethality in there games and well it's not my thing it's not anyone's place to say it's wrong.

That said while an orc is gonna drop people left and right its also an outlier
goblins, kobolds, dire rats are all going to do d6 dam or less on an average hit.

edit in the real world combat is pretty lethal but it has not stopped us from fighting. So i disagree with the idea that no one would ever fight in an e2 world.

[Flickerdart]

I would say that some people like massive lethality in there games and well it's not my thing it's not anyone's place to say it's wrong.

That said while an orc is gonna drop people left and right its also an outlier
goblins, kobolds, dire rats are all going to do d6 dam or less on an average hit.

Goblins and dire rats are CR 1/3 creatures. Kobolds are CR 1/4 creatures. That means you're supposed to fight more of them at a time than CR 1/2 Orcs. And more enemies means the action economy is not on your side, and you never want the action economy not to be on your side because it means the goblins can gang up on one PC at a time and take them down pretty reliably and there's not much you can do about it.

[Silva Stormrage]

Easy Metamgiced Fel drained Cold Snap becomes a LOT more dangerous.

I would say that its not a great idea but I like mid levels XD.

[tiercel]

People worry about the orc's offense vs low level characters, but the bog-standard orc is not exactly representative of low-CR critters.

Consider, at CR 1/2:
Orc: +4 to hit, 2d4+4(18-20/x2).

Let's compare some Core CR 1 critters:
Small air elemental: +5, 1d4, whirlwind
Small animated object: +1, 1d4
Camel: +0, 1d4+2
Darkmantle: +5, 1d4+4+improved grab+constrict
Lemure devil: +2, 1d4
Riding dog: +3, 1d6+3+trip
Duergar (warrior): +2, 1d8+1(/x3), enlarge/invis self
Small earth elemental: +5, d6+4 (+6, d6+5 vs earthbound opponent)
Drow elf (warrior): +3, d6+1(18-20/x2) // +2 ranged, 1d4+drow poison, (Sp)
Small fire elemental: +3, d4+d4fire+burn

Offensively, the orc compares favorably or at least comparably to many CR 1 creatures (I've just grabbed the first 10 CR 1 critters from the SRD). The main difference is that the CR 1s are generally harder to kill (high movement, hardness, higher hp, stealth, DR, etc).

That doesn't mean orcs aren't a problem for low-level campaigns or even an E(low-number) campaign, but they aren't representative of offense for their CR. (Why the heck do orcs have falchions, anyway?)

[ArcturusV]

Well, it also suggests they may be using Great Axes instead.

And I guess mostly to fit some "barbarian" type of feel. Though not Barbaric by being less advanced, no, by choice of embracing savagery in their culture. Also note by MM, these 1/2 CR monsters have +1 magic weapons (Javelins), which is probably the odder bit of equipment to focus on.

[Flickerdart]

Orcs might be at the high-end, but there are a whole bunch of critters with 1d10 weapons (dwarves, anything that uses heavy crossbows), and even 3d6 (half-giants) in that CR range.

[JusticeZero]

Those can be changed.. Drop the variance on weapons as a whole if outliers are too scary.

[awa]

Goblins and dire rats are CR 1/3 creatures. Kobolds are CR 1/4 creatures. That means you're supposed to fight more of them at a time than CR 1/2 Orcs. And more enemies means the action economy is not on your side, and you never want the action economy not to be on your side because it means the goblins can gang up on one PC at a time and take them down pretty reliably and there's not much you can do about it.

The math does not support that statement all

4 kobolds grants 75 xp
3 goblins/ dire rats grant 75 xp
2 orcs grant 75xp

orcs are more accurate but we are gonna ignore that right now 2 hits from an orc deals 4d4+8 for an average of 18 damge a guaranteed knock out

3 hits from a goblin deal 3d6 10.5 damge the dire rats deal 3d4 for an average of 7.5

4 hits from a kobold do 4d6-4 an average of 10

so even ignoring the fact that goblins and kobolds are less accurate then orcs and its harder to get 4 guys all attacking the same target when he has allies then it is to get 2 the goblins and kobolds are still less instantly deadly then the orcs.

xp calculations done with http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/

[Kudaku]

I think you're getting a little bit too caught up in the orc warrior. Let's break him down a bit:

He's a 1st level warrior with 17 strength, meaning his to hit bonus is +4, and his damage with a falchion is 2d4+4. For some reason his feat is Alertness according to the SRD.

Since warriors are fairly common, let's consider another race - the human.

A 1st level human warrior (think mercenary or bandit) with 15 strength will have a to hit bonus of +4 (+1 from Weapon Focus, his other feat involves basket weaving for tradition's sake). Let's say he has a greatsword. That means he's doing 2d6+3 damage.
This (not counting crits) averages out to:
5+4 = 9 damage per swing for the orc. He has a max damage of 12, and a crit damage of 24.
7+3 = 10 damage per swing for the human. He has a max damage of 15, and a crit damage of 30.

The human fighter is on average doing more damage, though the orc will crit more often due to the 18-20 crit range.

Now let's consider a second level rogue. He's an unusually healthy rogue and has 14 con, giving him +4 hit points. At first level he gained 6 hit points, and at second level he rolled a 4. He has 14 hit points total.

What both of these have in common is that orcs and humans normally feature prominently in a fantasy campaign, and they both have the potential to kill a typical 2nd level character in a single (un)lucky blow.

[awa]

the default human warrior has 12-13 str so does 2d6+1 not 2d6+3

so the actual average damge for a basic human warrior is 8
and has a hit bonus of +3 (1 bab, 1 weapon focus, 1 str) also less then the orc

(also orcs actually have an attack bonus of +4 not +5

[Kudaku]

the default human warrior has 12-13 str so does 2d6+1 not 2d6+3

so the actual average damge for a basic human warrior is 8

Which was why I specified 15 strength instead of 13, 15 is the highest number of the NPC elite array

[awa]

"The elite array is most appropriate for monsters who add levels in a player character class."
if you put that on a warrior you should increase the cr.

Yes there are some monster that can one shot a low level pc making combat extremely dangerous we all knew that just don't use them/build them like that and your fine.

The fact that you can build a custom monster capable of killing a low level pc means nothing.

edit whats the point of comparing an average orc warrior with an exceptional human one.

[Raineh Daze]

edit in the real world combat is pretty lethal but it has not stopped us from fighting. So i disagree with the idea that no one would ever fight in an e2 world.

Real-world math also caps out at level 5. That's +1 to an attribute, another feat, extra skill with wielding a weapon, maybe a handy trick or two, and extra durability. The world's historical elite warriors aren't the sort of things to die like flies.

[Just to Browse]

But to not deal with the wolf means not eating come slaughtering season. Which is why people hunt wolves in groups. Because if there are 15 guys facing a single wolf, it's probable that at least 3 or 4 of them will beat the wolf's initiative and will be able to chuck their spears at him before he gets a chance to rip someone's throat out.

An E2 game would necessitate planning, strategy, and tactics, as well as (probably) hirelings, guard animals, and so forth. If every attack has a 1/20 chance of killing you outright, your best bet is to stack the odds so far in your favor that they never get a chance to attack in the first place.

I would be interested in playing a game like this, and I think it's a good idea.

"I would like to make a request to the strongest adeventurers in the kingdom!"
"What is it?"
"There are wolves attacking my sheep and we need to drive them off."
"Sorry, there are only four of us. We can't hope to fight a pack of wolves. You'll have more luck rounding 10 random commoners and chucking spears at them. Actually we're almost entirely indistinguishable from commoners so we'll help you."

I don't know about you, but that just sounds kind of boring. For players to succeed regularly they need to optimize like hell or write up 1-3 characters per session. Those things can totally be OK by you, but it really really kills the hero dynamic.

[Kudaku]

"The elite array is most appropriate for monsters who add levels in a player character class."
if you put that on a warrior you should increase the cr.

Yes there are some monster that can one shot a low level pc making combat extremely dangerous we all knew that just don't use them/build them like that and your fine.

The fact that you can build a custom monster capable of killing a low level pc means nothing.

edit whats the point of comparing an average orc warrior with an exceptional human one.

Did I at any point mention CR? Or for that matter, do you really consider a 1st level human warrior with the elite stats "a custom monster"? We're not exactly talking beholder mage level of optimization here...

I said that people were getting caught up on the orc for a reason -my point was to illustrate that E2 is a short-sighted place to put the level cap, since level 2 characters are fragile in general, not just against an outlier like the THF orc - low level D&D is frequently referred to as "rocket tag" for a reason.

I used a 1st level warrior with the elite stats because I see that as A: One of the most common classes you'll encounter in a EL2 world and B: I personally consider Elite stats is appropriate for a henchman or a foil - someone above a mook but not an actual nemesis or boss.

Said henchman would indeed be CR 1, not 1/2. Which means two of them would be an appropriate encounter for a ECL 2 party. See what I'm getting at...?

Edit: Oh, good catch on the orc attack bonus- didn't see your edit till now. Said typo has been fixed.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Whatever levels you choose, I'd recommend the shapeshift druid over the vanilla one.

To me, at least, a wild shape-like ability is more iconic to druids than an animal companion anyways. Maybe a feat chain to gain access to the flight form?