D&D: Roleplaying Wisdom

[DASLAYARGH]

Hello. In the campaign I'm in, my wisdom score got drained all the way to 1. I have an intelligence score of 17. I'm curious as to how I should roleplay this. Any interesting ideas? Also, I have a charisma score of 15, so how do these three more social ability scores interact with each other?

[JusticeZero]

All but autistic inattentive oblivious vagueness. Smart and articulate, but your ability to perceive the world is almost gone and it is a miracle if you are even aware enough of yourself to know that you haven't eaten without help. If you do notice things, they are overwhelming.

[Barsoom]

Recite differential equations while being completely oblivious to the dangers of the dungeons you're slogging through

[Seharvepernfan]

Your character probably can't tell when he's dreaming and when he's not, and he's probably hallucinating a lot by this stage.

[Ulysses WkAmil]

Incredibly Photogenic Rainman. Nuff said.

[Stake A Vamp]

if you watch firefly, think about river, brilliant, but utterly unaware of the situation.

[prufock]

All but autistic inattentive oblivious vagueness.

Autism is identified with impaired social skills and inability to effectively communicate. His high charisma and intelligence I think are opposite to that.

I prefer to think of this guy as the mad scientist. He can do amazing things with magic, inventions, and so on, without ever stopping to think if he should. He likely has some hallucinations and delusions, could be schizophrenic, or have other psychological disorders. To keep with the "mad scientist" theme, maybe his delusions are grandiose.

Or perhaps he believes he is a character in a tabletop roleplaying game.

[Razanir]

Or perhaps he believes he is a character in a tabletop roleplaying game.

Go with this. I'd play him as still a very brilliant mind, but he's lost track of what's a dream and what's reality... And he's having strange delusions of titans sitting around a table controlling their actions by rolling massive stone structures with mysterious symbols engraved on them. (Who says Common is necessarily English? )

[imaloony]

The way I generally role play low Wisdom is a sort of unintentionally rude and forward character who generally doesn't get wit.
I once played a fighter with 12 Int and 8 Wis, and I played him that way. He was very loud, obnoxious, and direct. If someone threw sarcasm his way he completely dropped the ball and assumed they were being serious. Essentially, he was quite rusty on social norms.
Actually, you know what would be an excellent example of high Int, low Wis? Sheldon Cooper, from Big Bang Theory.

[Raineh Daze]

The way I generally role play low Wisdom is a sort of unintentionally rude and forward character who generally doesn't get wit.
I once played a fighter with 12 Int and 8 Wis, and I played him that way. He was very loud, obnoxious, and direct. If someone threw sarcasm his way he completely dropped the ball and assumed they were being serious. Essentially, he was quite rusty on social norms.
Actually, you know what would be an excellent example of high Int, low Wis? Sheldon Cooper, from Big Bang Theory.

You've gotten Wisdom and Charisma confused.

I always tend to roleplay low Wisdom as reckless, unobservant, and extremely enthusiastic. Essentially, the lower a character's Wisdom gets, the more gung-ho they get.

Though extremely low wisdom... yeah, that'd be when you start having trouble telling fact from fiction. Low will save and all.

[TuggyNE]

The way I generally role play low Wisdom is a sort of unintentionally rude and forward character who generally doesn't get wit.
I once played a fighter with 12 Int and 8 Wis, and I played him that way. He was very loud, obnoxious, and direct. If someone threw sarcasm his way he completely dropped the ball and assumed they were being serious. Essentially, he was quite rusty on social norms.

For what it's worth, that's more fitting of a 6 Wis 6 Cha character, or even worse. 8 Wis/Cha is less likely to completely fail in all respects, and Wis has nothing to do with how well or poorly you express yourself.

[imaloony]

You've gotten Wisdom and Charisma confused.

I always tend to roleplay low Wisdom as reckless, unobservant, and extremely enthusiastic. Essentially, the lower a character's Wisdom gets, the more gung-ho they get.

Though extremely low wisdom... yeah, that'd be when you start having trouble telling fact from fiction. Low will save and all.

No, I haven't. Remember, Charisma dictates two things primarily: How physically and socially attractive you are. Now, you can be unfamiliar with social norms and still be handsome and charismatic, otherwise monks would very commonly have bad Charisma, which isn't often the case, Monk being a class that generally grabs medium to decent scores in all abilities.
To me, Wisdom dictates how level-headed and calculating you are. Take a look at Belkar; he's always angry and aloof, but when V cast Owl's Wisdom on him, he became far more sociable and level-headed.
Wisdom and Charisma are actually quite tightly knit together, in my opinion, but there is a fine line between them, and it often needs to be traced back to the character's surroundings. You see a Barbarian are socially awkward and conspicuous, but that's because that's how they would act in a Barbarian's village. My character was a member of the circus, and he was among the more popular acts, and among the other circus members, he was generally liked.

Honestly, if I would ever DM, I would take the AD&D initiative to bring back comeliness, which locks in your physical appearance. Your Charisma would remain locked for purpose of spells and bonus' and stuff, but depending on your setting, you would take a bonus or penalty to that Charisma for purpose of interaction with the people living there.

[jaybird]

Low Wis, high Int/Cha? This. Alternatively, and for a darker take, this.

[JusticeZero]

No, I haven't. Remember, Charisma dictates two things primarily: How physically and socially attractive you are.

Charisma is primarily your self-identity. As it goes down, you become less confident and less able to communicate anything in a clear and inspiring way. Zero Charisma doesn't result in you being ugly; it results in you being unable to recognize the difference between you and the outside world. Charisma has absolutely zero to do with physical appearance, except in that someone with high Charisma is probably better at presenting themself. Or are you saying that rats (Animal handling) and magic wands (UMD) care whether you have wrinkles or bad hair?

Honestly, if I would ever DM, I would take the AD&D initiative to bring back comeliness, which locks in your physical appearance.

What happens when your waifish character with high Comelyness crosses the border into the next country, where there has never been a beauty queen weighing less than 300 pounds? Everyone shies away from her because she looks sickly and, well.. eew. Or vice versa. You're putting a subjective quality onto an objective line there. Plus, I don't see that Gibbering Mouther (Cha 13) bringing all the girls to its yard, let alone the Ghast (Cha 16) or Ogre Mage (Cha 17).

[imaloony]

Charisma has absolutely zero to do with physical appearance, except in that someone with high Charisma is probably better at presenting themself.

Sigh, do I really need to quote wizards on this one?

"The ability that measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness"
Source: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...sma&alpha=

Yes, Charisma has to do with physical appearance, otherwise everyone would be able to say "My character is the most beautiful looking human in the last six generations." and would proceed to fascinate every human in within four square miles because they would be able to pass it off as "Character fluff" since no stat, according to you, affects attractiveness.

Or are you saying that rats (Animal handling) and magic wands (UMD) care whether you have wrinkles or bad hair?What happens when your waifish character with high Comelyness crosses the border into the next country, where there has never been a beauty queen weighing less than 300 pounds? Everyone shies away from her because she looks sickly and, well.. eew. Or vice versa. You're putting a subjective quality onto an objective line there. Plus, I don't see that Gibbering Mouther (Cha 13) bringing all the girls to its yard, let alone the Ghast (Cha 16) or Ogre Mage (Cha 17).

And that is exactly the reason why Charisma and Comeliness should be separate. I didn't write the rules, but as quoted above, Charisma DOES affect attractiveness (Unless you would like the disagree with the folks who wrote the rules to this game) in 3.0/3.5 ect. So reinstating the Com stat from AD&D is the preferred method.

However, like I said previously, according to the Wizards definition, no, Charisma has nothing to do with your "Self-Identity". Charisma is purely looks and how others perceive you socially. Honestly, since Wisdom affects your willpower and how you resist mind-altering effects that could make you perceive yourself and the world around you otherwise, Wisdom would have far more to do with "Self-Identity"

[TuggyNE]

However, like I said previously, according to the Wizards definition, no, Charisma has nothing to do with your "Self-Identity". Charisma is purely looks and how others perceive you socially. Honestly, since Wisdom affects your willpower and how you resist mind-altering effects that could make you perceive yourself and the world around you otherwise, Wisdom would have far more to do with "Self-Identity"

Both of you are wrong, technically; attractiveness is only a fairly small part of the WotC definition, but it is part (however foolish this inclusion was). However, JusticeZero is correct that it is primarily about sense of self and force of personality.

Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma.

This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

Edit: oh yeah, another couple examples:
42 Cha, baby! Oh yeah.
Cha 24.
And for a change of pace, Cha 20.

[imaloony]

Both of you are wrong, technically; attractiveness is only a fairly small part of the WotC definition, but it is part (however foolish this inclusion was). However, JusticeZero is correct that it is primarily about sense of self and force of personality.

I fail to see how I am wrong when I pointed at the creators and said "What they said." You can quote the SRD as much as you want, and call the inclusion foolish, but it's there in black and white. It's a stupid rule, as is anything having to do with Charisma (See Diplomacy), but it's there.

[JusticeZero]

Yes, Charisma has to do with physical appearance, otherwise everyone would be able to say "My character is the most beautiful looking human in the last six generations." and would proceed to fascinate every human in within four square miles because they would be able to pass it off as "Character fluff" since no stat, according to you, affects attractiveness.

You can *say* that all you want. It isn't going to DO anything besides making everyone at the table roll their eyes and conclude that you're a pathetic teenage marysue, though. Attractiveness isn't mind control like some people seem to act like it is.

That idea itself is troubling and insulting, by the way. Sounds a lot like "I couldn't help myself, she had skimpy clothes." I've never had any problem ignoring and dismissing people of a wide range of physical appearance, and neither has anyone else I know who doesn't reside permanently in a prison or institution.

If you want to be exceptionally cute, spend skill points in Diplomacy, since that's the only place it'd be likely to do anything. Maybe get a feat.

[imaloony]

You can *say* that all you want. It isn't going to DO anything besides making everyone at the table roll their eyes and conclude that you're a pathetic teenage marysue, though. Attractiveness isn't mind control like some people seem to act like it is.

Oh, it isn't? Well, I've got a great little novel sitting in my lap that says otherwise. It's called the "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Unearthed Arcana"
Now, let's take a look under the Comeliness section, shall we?
"+18 to +21: The beauty of the character will cause heads to tun and hearts to race. Reaction for initial contact is at a percentage equal to 150% of the comeliness score. Individuals of the opposite sex will be affected as if under a fascinate spell unless their wisdom exceeds two-thirds of the character's comeliness total. Individuals of the same sex will do likewise unless wisdom totals at least 50% of the other character's comeliness score."

Straight from the book. Beauty causes a fascinate-like ability. You can't discuss your way out of that one. If you state that Charisma does not dictate your looks and that the players get to determine their looks, it does not become an "Eye rolling" affair, it becomes that you end up with half of a town following you around drooling, and for all intensive purposes, probably willing to do most whatever you say.

[TuggyNE]

I fail to see how I am wrong when I pointed at the creators and said "What they said." You can quote the SRD as much as you want, and call the inclusion foolish, but it's there in black and white. It's a stupid rule, as is anything having to do with Charisma (See Diplomacy), but it's there.

Your assertion was that Cha represented nothing but physical attractiveness and social perceptions (in that order); the quote you provided put physical attractiveness at the very end, and the quotes I provided (which are official rules on at least the same level as the glossary) leave it out entirely. This is fitting, since Cha is a mental ability score. Chew on that a bit.

As such, and especially given the examples posted, I don't feel out of line considering physical attractiveness the least significant portion of Cha, with mental characteristics like social adeptness, force of personality, and sense of self being far more important.

So yes, you were wrong; not only are there other components to Cha, those other components are arguably the most important, especially for things like spells and special abilities. You were also partly right in that physical attractiveness is in indeed a component of Cha.

Oh, it isn't? Well, I've got a great little novel sitting in my lap that says otherwise. It's called the "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Unearthed Arcana"

So, 2e? And Comeliness only? This doesn't really apply very closely.

[imaloony]

Your assertion was that Cha represented nothing but physical attractiveness and social perceptions (in that order); the quote you provided put physical attractiveness at the very end, and the quotes I provided (which are official rules on at least the same level as the glossary) leave it out entirely. This is fitting, since Cha is a mental ability score. Chew on that a bit.
So yes, you were wrong; not only are there other components to Cha, those other components are arguably the most important, especially for things like spells and special abilities. You were also partly right in that physical attractiveness is in indeed a component of Cha.

Well, someone's in a cocky mood.
You see, when you have a conversation with someone, it's pretty rude to use the phrase "You are wrong" in the same sense that it would be rude to do a victory dance on the head of someone you beat at chess.
I hate Charisma as a stat anyways. It's never made a lick of sense, and I constantly see people bend its meaning. Even your explaination hardly makes any sense. So what, it describes all of that but only kind of and you also have Wisdom and Intelligence mixed in there to determine how you character acts according to you?
Besides, all of this is a moot point anyways; you can role play your character however you see fit. If you play your character that Charisma determines their social sense and their Wisdom determines their overall clarity of mind, who's going to argue with you over how your character acts?

So, 2e? And Comeliness only? This doesn't really apply very closely.

Last I checked this was the General Gaming board. 2E is just a relevant here as 3.5

[Ulysses WkAmil]

Can't we all agree that Charisma is just force of personality, and that it usually dictates physical attraction but doesn't always? Lets not cook this into an argument.

By the way, doesn't a wisdom score below a certain point cause something to lose sentience/self awareness?

[Barsoom]

Guys, all of you, in the "what the heck is Charisma" argument - you are all correct, each in his own way. Because Wizards' description of Charisma is illogical and highly contradictory. So relax and shake hands. It's not your fault. It's Wizards'.

[TuggyNE]

By the way, doesn't a wisdom score below a certain point cause something to lose sentience/self awareness?

Any of the mental stats hitting 0 causes a coma of one sort or another. Con 0 is death, Dex 0 and Str 0 are paralysis.

Guys, all of you, in the "what the heck is Charisma" argument - you are all correct, each in his own way. Because Wizards' description of Charisma is illogical and highly contradictory. So relax and shake hands. It's not your fault. It's Wizards'.

Basically, yes.

[SiuiS]

The way I generally role play low Wisdom is a sort of unintentionally rude and forward character who generally doesn't get wit.
I once played a fighter with 12 Int and 8 Wis, and I played him that way. He was very loud, obnoxious, and direct. If someone threw sarcasm his way he completely dropped the ball and assumed they were being serious. Essentially, he was quite rusty on social norms.
Actually, you know what would be an excellent example of high Int, low Wis? Sheldon Cooper, from Big Bang Theory.

Wisdom of 1 is slow human minimum, though. He's not going to act like anyone found in humanity. Wisdom that low is solipsism, delirium and being fey-struck. Those genius inventors and artists in Lovecraftian horror who are still smart but Dufy through life babbling because they cannot differentiate their thoughts from their words? Those are the wisdom 1 guys. The ones who aren't sure if maybe they are having an episode, or maybe contessa the has maid really is stretching her mouth to the size of a door with her four arms while centipedes with human faces crawl from her mouth and whisper secrets he doesn't want anyone to know.

Wanna play Wisdom 1? Occasionally, scream at the top i your lungs and either run, or assault something. Not always when appropriate, but for just reverse combat and noncombat. Maybe carry the goblin's corpse with you until it promises not to tell.

[prufock]

And that is exactly the reason why Charisma and Comeliness should be separate. I didn't write the rules, but as quoted above, Charisma DOES affect attractiveness (Unless you would like the disagree with the folks who wrote the rules to this game) in 3.0/3.5 ect. So reinstating the Com stat from AD&D is the preferred method.

However, like I said previously, according to the Wizards definition, no, Charisma has nothing to do with your "Self-Identity". Charisma is purely looks and how others perceive you socially.

You quoted text, but not the whole thing.

This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

Now, whether this reflects "self-identity" is questionable, as that isn't even a defined term as far as D&D goes. Attractiveness is built in because people find attractive people more persuasive in general.

The important thing is not what charisma IS, but what it DOES, as far as the game goes. Charisma applies primarily to the social skill set, which is making people think the way you want them to think. I think your description of someone who is unintentionally rude and forward might be perceived as counter to that by the people who are objecting. At the same time, however, maybe he simply has high ranks in intimidate, no ranks in other cha skills, and his rudeness is a form of browbeating people into doing what he wants. Characters can be modeled in lots of different ways.

As far as personal opinion, I don't think Comeliness should be a stat at all. It's just character description, and it should be separated from Charisma. If we want to model particularly attractive characters, make it a feat or trait or whatever that grants a bonus to social skills in appropriate contexts (similar to how the optional reputation rules work).

[Man on Fire]

Hello. In the campaign I'm in, my wisdom score got drained all the way to 1. I have an intelligence score of 17. I'm curious as to how I should roleplay this. Any interesting ideas? Also, I have a charisma score of 15, so how do these three more social ability scores interact with each other?

I though that draining any mental stat below 3 makes you comatose.

[Ashtagon]

Incredibly Photogenic Rainman. Nuff said.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Razanir]

I though that draining any mental stat below 3 makes you comatose.

No, you need to hit Cha 0 for that to happen

[Raineh Daze]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Of course it does! Wisdom makes you look bad in pictures, you always know how to avoid getting your image captured perfectly to prevent loss of secrecy.