The Intimidating Prospect of Simultaneous Turns

[Mr. Mask]

I was thinking of using simultaneous turns in a forum game, to make things easier. It got me wondering if there were any systems that use simultaneous turns which I could base my approach off.

This in turn got me wondering how it could work... For a forum, that'd likely balance out well enough with a good GM. But at a table... that seems a bit complex for the GM and players.

[Bulhakov]

I assume the players simultaneously declare their actions for the turn, but there are still initiative rolls afterwards?

The players then perform their actions in order from highest initiative, but get a penalty to their rolls depending on how much they needed to alter their actions if the circumstances changed due to actions of previous players.

This might encourage players to describe their turns algorithmically - "I bash the nearest orc, but if there isn't one in range I run up to one fighting the most damaged ally".

[Mastikator]

It's not a RPG but Diplomacy works like this.

Each person writes what they do on a piece of paper, everyone turn their paper in at the same time, the actions are read out loud and all things unfold simultaneously. You have to have rules for every outcome (player X attacks player Y, but is also attacked by player Z so the attack on player Y is null, player Y's attack on player S is therefore not null, etc).

I think exalted use a kind of simultaneous combat system where each action take a certain amount of moments and whomever finished their action last, his turn is up, but everyone begins at the same time.

[Actana]

The Riddle of Steel uses simultaneous turns in combat. In a 1v1 situation, both sides pick up either a red or a white dice, signifying offense or defense, respectively. They don't show it to the other side when they pick it, and then both reveal it at the same time. If both have defense, nothing happens (the combatants circle around each other warily). If one side has defense and the other offense, one attacks and the other has the chance to defend (which if successful leads to a counterattack or other maneuver). If both sides have offense, you better be sure you're the one who gets the attack first, otherwise you're as good as dead - no defense means you're extremely easy to hit.


Keep in mind that this approach does not really work for forum games.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Just have the characters describe their intentions and not their actions (make sure you inform them of this beforehand) and then you tell them what happens every round according to the initiative rolls you make in secret. This can all be done in the OOC thread with the DM just giving the results in the IC thread.

Quite simple. Personally I'm surprised people muck about with a conventional initiative order in PbP games.

[Grinner]

There's also the option of foregoing initiative entirely. The system Wushu allows each player to make a number of descriptions each round. Versus Mooks, the order of the descriptions doesn't matter at all, since the dice pools generated by each description are all rolled simultaneously at the end of the round.

[Eldan]

Just have the characters describe their intentions and not their actions (make sure you inform them of this beforehand) and then you tell them what happens every round according to the initiative rolls you make in secret. This can all be done in the OOC thread with the DM just giving the results in the IC thread.

Quite simple. Personally I'm surprised people muck about with a conventional initiative order in PbP games.

I'm not quite sure that's a good idea, really. I mean, the main draw of a PbP game over a forum game is the chance to write lengthy descriptions of what your character does. This way, you are basically taking away not only their chance to write description of their character being cool in combat, but also their ability to decide tactics in detail. Prepare for some extremely pissed off players when someone gets hit by a nasty effect and replies with a lengthy tirade of "I wanted to move to square B5, not B4 and then cast the spell at square X6! You made me cast the spell in the completely wrong way and the not take cover in the right way!"

[CowardlyPaladin]

Didn't Second Edition D&D do something like this?

[Saph]

Just so happens that I wrote a guide on this very topic.

A Faster Way of Running PbP Combat

Short version: you use group initiative, rather than individual initiative. In my experience it speeds combats up by a factor of 2x or 3x.

[Friv]

The Exalted subgame Burn Legend also works on simultaneous actions - everyone has a set of index cards with their various actions written on them, and each person chooses one and places it face-down in front of them. Then everyone reveals at once. Since a lot of attacks work on a rock-paper-scissors system, outguessing your opponent is a big part of the tactical system.

[Tengu_temp]

I assume the players simultaneously declare their actions for the turn, but there are still initiative rolls afterwards?

The players then perform their actions in order from highest initiative, but get a penalty to their rolls depending on how much they needed to alter their actions if the circumstances changed due to actions of previous players.

This might encourage players to describe their turns algorithmically - "I bash the nearest orc, but if there isn't one in range I run up to one fighting the most damaged ally".

Bad idea. Overly complicated for no reason.

Just have the characters describe their intentions and not their actions (make sure you inform them of this beforehand) and then you tell them what happens every round according to the initiative rolls you make in secret. This can all be done in the OOC thread with the DM just giving the results in the IC thread.

Quite simple. Personally I'm surprised people muck about with a conventional initiative order in PbP games.

Also bad idea, for reasons Eldan already explained.

Just so happens that I wrote a guide on this very topic.

A Faster Way of Running PbP Combat

Short version: you use group initiative, rather than individual initiative. In my experience it speeds combats up by a factor of 2x or 3x.

Very good idea, and really easy to implement in almost all games. Hell, I've been running most of my PbP games like that for years, even before that guide was written.

[Knaight]

Look at REIGN (or Nemesis, which is free), Burning Wheel, and Fudge. All three have systems which are essentially simultaneous, and all three have different ways of handling it - REIGN/Nemesis have emergent initiative, Burning Wheel has interacting scripts that everyone makes at once, and Fudge has the relatively simple prospect of the winner of the roll getting to actually do something that the loser defends against with their lower roll (the gap between them is very important, and there is no need for second rolls).

[Glimbur]

Street Fighter: The RPG has an interesting initiative system. Every move has a Speed rating, which comes from both your character (Dex, usually) and what kind of move it is (Fierce punch is slower than Jab). Lower numbers are worse. At the start of every turn, everyone picks an action card and lays it face down. The Referee counts up from zero and when your card's speed comes up you act. The turn ends when everyone has acted, and you pick new cards for next turn.

The trick is, you can interrupt a slower action (lower number) with a faster one. If the wrestler is trying to Suplex me (at speed 5, for example), I can interrupt with my Backflip kick (at speed 7) and not only hit him but also move out of range. If someone tries to fierce punch you, you can use your Block to reduce the damage.

The system seems designed for 1v1 fights, and it gets a little unwieldy with more than about 4 combatants, but it is interesting.

[Rhynn]

Burning Wheel.

Can't really think of anything else, but basically you'd just need a way to resolve conflicting simultaneous actions. That can't be too hard, because the principle is already in action in many, many RPGs! "I want to hit him" vs. "I want to hit him and not get hit by him." You roll dice. Check out BW, definitely, since it has some organized approach to this. (I guess Mouse Guard may, too.)

"Blind declaring" is definitely one way, but there's the problem of having to adapt to changes.

The Riddle of Steel isn't actually all that simultaneous. Someone always goes first, and initiative is all about whose attacks resolve first. It'd also be horrible to try to run as PBP, I think.

Didn't Second Edition D&D do something like this?

In AD&D 2E (I assume you meant AD&D, and not, like, Holmes Basic D&D, which was the second edition of D&D ), there's three methods:
1. First the DM determines monster/NPC actions, then the players announce PC actions, then both or all sides roll 1d10, and lower rolls go first.
2. As above, but you add modifiers (for being hasted, slowed, on higher ground, etc.) to individual combatants' initiative.
3. As above, but you add more modifiers (for weapon speed, creature size, etc.) to individual combatants' initiative.

So, no.

[Alex12]

I'm in a game right now where I get simultaneous turns. Since I'm playing a Dvati twin pair, this is reasonable.

[Mr. Mask]

Would anyone mind telling me a little more about how Burning Wheel's system of turn resolution works? It sounds quite interesting.


Something about the Street Fighter game's system also sounds very fun to me... Any idea if it works well over PbP?