Help me fluff some crunch! Cleric who dosen't use wisdom for anything...

[Giegue]

As the title says, in a recent thread I made an interesting discussion came up As it is, I refuse to play clerics because I cannot RP high wisdom due to having a RL wisdom score of around 8 at best. My DM however has let me use the Lost Traditions feat from the third party supplement bastards and bloodlines to swap my casting stat to int or cha. However, the issue becomes this; fluff wise it makes no sense for a cleric to cast off of any stat other then wisdom, and it just feels wrong to me to have an int or cha-based cleric. I don't know how to rectify this without making up some really odd, contrives concept that just, well, seems lame, and thus I am turning to you. How, at all, could a cleric who casts off of int or cha make sense fluff wise? If anybody has any ideas on this I would greatly appreciate it...

[zimmerwald1915]

As the title says, in a recent thread I made an interesting discussion came up As it is, I refuse to play clerics because I cannot RP high wisdom due to having a RL wisdom score of around 8 at best. My DM however has let me use the Lost Traditions feat from the third party supplement bastards and bloodlines to swap my casting stat to int or cha. However, the issue becomes this; fluff wise it makes no sense for a cleric to cast off of any stat other then wisdom, and it just feels wrong to me to have an int or cha-based cleric. I don't know how to rectify this without making up some really odd, contrives concept that just, well, seems lame, and thus I am turning to you. How, at all, could a cleric who casts off of int or cha make sense fluff wise? If anybody has any ideas on this I would greatly appreciate it...

For int-based you might try appropriating some of the fluff of the Archivist, and looking up some info on Aquinas, Loyola, and other theological logicians.

[Giegue]

Yeah, but that doesn't explain why his/her divine magic is coming from their intellect(Int) rather then their strength of faith(wis). That is where I am having an issue with the fluff. Not so much the personality aspects of a high int or high cha cleric, but rather the reason why their magic is coming from their smarts(Int) or force of personality(cha) instead of strength of faith(wis).

[Lemmy]

Maybe his God sends him dreams of texts, speechs or riddles in an otherworldly language such as Celestial, but one which you can't learn through Linguistics.

So by deciphering these texts/speeches, he gains access to their power. Kinda lika the Words of Power mechanics form PF, except your character has to decipher his spells.

He prays and his good sends his a small fraction of the words of the divine. These words are powerful enough to affect reality but they are hard to near impossible to decipher.

Luckily, your character is really smart and well-trained in this particular form of channeling divine energy.

Is that a good fluff?

[Giegue]

Wouldn't that require it's own mechanics/sub-system, though? Also, I may or may not be forced to take the Kobald domain to get trapfinding, meaning if I'd be forced to take that I'd pretty much have to be a Kobald worshping some kind of evil god(planned to go netural evil either way) and thus I'm not quite sure that fits with an evil kobald cleric or just an evil cultist in general.

[Jay R]

Think about a old-style revival preacher. All his clerical gifts come from his charisma.

Now consider a Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine. These were brilliant scholars whose theology is still read today.

The gods give their gifts according to a person's ability to receive. Assume that the gods have chosen to work through your cleric's greatest gifts, for their own inscrutable purposes.

[Lemmy]

Wouldn't that require it's own mechanics/sub-system, though? Also, I may or may not be forced to take the Kobald domain to get trapfinding, meaning if I'd be forced to take that I'd pretty much have to be a Kobald worshping some kind of evil god(planned to go netural evil either way) and thus I'm not quite sure that fits with an evil kobald cleric or just an evil cultist in general.

Only if you want one.

Mechanically, it's just the same... Your God sends you what favor you ask of him.

The only difference is that instead of sending you a spell-in-a-can, he sends you a divine word, and you translate its meaning into magic. Instead of Flame Strike, he reveals to you the heavenly word for "Flame", and as you translate, you make it happen... It's a mystical otherworldly language, after all.

Add some mystic mambo-jumbo about you needing magic (i.e.: caster levels) to correctly interpret and translate these words, and you have spells. Maybe it's prepared spell-casting because divine language too complex for mortals to fully comprehend, so they fade from memory after a while.

IRL, if you speak a second language but rarely uses it, you tend to forget many of its words, but you remember their meaning when you hear someone speaking them, and this is just human language...

Divine language would be infinitely more complex, so it fades much faster, but you "remember" the meanings of its words when you hear your god speak them to you every day (i.e.: when you're preparing your spells).

[Giegue]

But isn't that basically what a favored soul or oracle is, as appose to a cleric? I thought being blessed by the gods with power rather then receiving power via worship was the schtick of the favored soul and oracle, not the cleric?

EDIT: Ninja'ed....but yeah, I can see that working maybe. Still seems really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really odd and somehow "wrong" to me. Don't know why, though....

[Lemmy]

But isn't that basically what a favored soul or oracle is, as appose to a cleric? I thought being blessed by the gods with power rather then reviving power via worship was the schtick of the favored soul and oracle, not the cleric?

Yeah, but it's not your power, it comes form your God. Like I said, the only difference is that instead of giving you a canned-spell, your god gives you instructions in a heavenly language.

You follow these instructions and you get magic, but to understand what these instructions say, you gotta understand what your god is saying in "divine language", therefore, you need Int.

EDIT: It's like every time you prepare a spell, you have passed on a very difficult Linguistics skill check. One so difficult, in fact, that it's impossible to do without divine enlightenment (i.e.: a Cleric's caster levels).

[Giegue]

You do realize that the comment you quoted was aimed at the poster before you, right? Your post ninja'ed mine, so you can safely ignore everything before the EDIT part of the post.

[Lemmy]

You do realize that the comment you quoted was aimed at the poster before you, right? Your post ninja'ed mine, so you can safely ignore everything before the EDIT part of the post.

Haha. Actually, I didn't realize that... My bad ^^

[Giegue]

Yeah, as I said, your idea is not bad, just quite.....odd. It's the only one I've gotten that at least half way explains why a cleric's magic would come from their smarts rather then strength of faith...but the main issue with it is the factor that, along with the other suggestions I have gotten thus far, it borders far too close on the territory of the favored soul and oracle for my comfort. The whole thing is clerics get magic from worship. Favored Souls(and Oracles in PF) are given their powers by the gods as a blessing, no mandatory worship attached. Clerics cast off of wisdom because it represents their strength of faith I.E piety. If a cleric has low wisdom, and uses another stat for casting, then they thus have less strength of faith/peity and as a result are not getting their magic from worship. This in turn means that their divine magic is a blessing from the gods rather then the result of worship, which then means they really should be a favored soul(Or Oracle in PF) instead of a cleric. That's the stumbling block I've been having fluff-wise with this, and have been looking for a way out as a result.

[holywhippet]

It may be difficult and/or annoying to play as one, but what about playing a cleric who isn't so much thinking that their God is their ally in whatever they do, but instead has memorized every single religious book of their faith and lets their knowledge guide them. Like if gnolls have been raiding a village he recalls the tales of St Whatever who managed to convince them to work in exchange for food (or wiped them out, whatever your preference is).

That way your cleric isn't so much focused on raw belief as following the doctrine of their religion.

[erikun]

Wisdom has no relation to piety beyond the fact that clerics cast spells based on wisdom. Other classes that rely on wisdom are free to have any piety that they want, or even lack of piety.


An INT-Cleric can easily be described as a worshipper who follows a deity and who receives from the deity complex formulas or spells in the divine tongue, and thus need their intelligence to puzzle them out and produce something usable. The song of the divine language is constantly in their heads, so to speak, and they receive such a blessing from their deity because the deity has faith that their follower (the character) will be capable of putting it to use to forward their cause.

A CHA-Cleric can be one who receives a deity's blessing based entirely on their devotion, and as such, they put all their personality and energy towards the goals of their following.

In both cases, the spells are being granted directly from the deity. In both cases, the deity can take away spells if the character stops following the deity's followings. A cleric who disrespects the knowledge they receive will find themselves not hearing the divine song anymore, or a cleric who uses their position for greedy purposes will find their charisma or force of will suddenly without the divine blessing behind it.


You seem quite focused on Oracles and Favored Souls in comparison to Clerics. I am not sure why this is, as both the mechanics and background for such classes is different enough to distinguish them. For Favored Souls, at least, they have been given part of their deity's essence and so are casting spells from that internal piece of divine magic (from what I remember). A Cleric, even one focused on and casting spells from CHA, is going to lack that internal divine essence and wouldn't be tapping into it for their magic.

[eepop]

Use charisma.

BE THE GOD


Its not your strength of faith that gives you power, its the strength of others' faith in you.


You can be just ascending, you can have fallen in some way, you may just be delusional but incredibly convincing, etc.

[Giegue]

Yeah, but that's not what the cleric is fluff wise, at all. That would require a whole new class entirely.

[Devils_Advocate]

fluff wise it makes no sense for a cleric to cast off of any stat other then wisdom

No, Wisdom makes the least sense as the primary Ability score for Clerics. Wisdom represents, roughly speaking, a character's ability to perceive the truth. But the Cleric class is meant to cover priests of all gods, including gods who are diametrically opposed to each other and have directly contradictory, mutually exclusive teachings which can't both be true. If one god says that you shouldn't hurt anyone and another says that you should slaughter everyone, then Wisdom can't allow different people to perceive the truth of the teachings of both gods because that makes no bloody sense.

Charisma is the mental Ability score that actually makes sense for Clerics: Your god's dogma may or may not make any sense, but you're very passionate about it.

The Heal skill is another thing that makes no sense being based on Wisdom (unless you seriously think that the average untrained monkey is better at first aid than the average untrained human).

[endoperez]

I'll post some descriptions from the SRD:


WISDOM:

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Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. Every creature has a Wisdom score.

You apply your character’s Wisdom modifier to:

• Will saving throws (for negating the effect of charm person and other spells).
• Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks. These are the skills that have Wisdom as their key ability.

Wisdom seems to be about perception and intuition, most of all. It'd take a perceptive and intuitive person to understand what his or her deity wants, but it isn't about faith.
Think of the Paladin ability Divine Grace - that is based off of Charisma, and fluff-wise, wouldn't that be the ultimate "shield of faith"? How can it be that faith could be a part of Charisma, a stat that's beneficial but not critical to a Cleric? In fact, how come Charisma is more important to paladins than Wisdom, if Wisdom is supposed to represent their faith?

Any way, let's look at
CHARISMA

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Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.

You apply your character’s Charisma modifier to:

• Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks. These are the skills that have Charisma as their key ability.
• Checks that represent attempts to influence others.

Charisma is about affecting others, but it's also the actual strength of personality. A person with a strong personality should have high charisma, even if others react to him negatively, or try to ignore him or her.

A faith, a strong personal conviction, could be represented by Charisma, couldn't it?

Going straight by stats would indicate that clerics with low charisma would have more doubts about their faith, but of course mechanics and role-acting are kept separate from each other.

A person with a strong Charisma could be played as having an unwavering faith on a deity, but with low Wisdom, he or she might have trouble understanding what the deity wants in a specific situation.


Since you're afraid you're stepping on Favoured Soul's toes, I'm trying to think of why an extremely pious person would want to be a cleric, even though he knows that he can't hear his deity's voice as clearly as some others.
Maybe he knows he received a call, in one way or another? Ooh, maybe he thought he was supposed to be a paladin, but something happened that prevents him from doing that. Here's one possibility:


When the character was young he believed he'd become a paladin/holy warrior, as his body was as strong and unwavering as his faith. Then something bad happened. Maybe a magical sickness, maybe the curse of an evil spellcaster, or a monster's poison. His body is now wrecked, and he feels he can't be the paladin he thinks he was supposed to be. He becomes a cleric since that is the closest he can ever be to a paladin. He knows he can't hear "the voice" as clearly as other clerics, but his faith is strong...

There's many things you can do with it. Maybe he thinks his original destiny was that of a warrior, so this physically weak cleric keeps on suggesting all kinds of dangerous and risky plans.

Maybe the feat represents teachings that are meant for a paladin who multiclasses as a cleric. I mean, a paladin has enough stats to worry about, he'd likely have low Wisdom. If a paladin wanted to pursue clerichood, some exceptions would be allowed. Charisma as the casting stat sounds like a reasonable one.

[Sylian]

For Int, play a cleric of knowledge, such as Gilean from Dragonlance. For Cha, play a cleric of music, freedom, inspiration, trickery, or passion.

[ClockShock]

There are some good ideas on this thread already, and they work, you just have to want them to work.

Use a little imagination, cut down the strict archetype you have in your mind. Of course an Int or Cha based Cleric won't feel right if you refuse to accept the possibility. Let go. Embrace something different. Find love for all kinds of Clerical casting. Find love for everyone.