OOTS #896 - The Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

All we have says V was way above X in power. The promises of the fiends for unmatched power are going to be possibly technically flawed, but to have a valid deal, which they very much wanted, V has to be top gun, and indisputably so.

V only has to be "top gun" with all three splices at V's command.

From Don't Split The Party:

I invented the Soul Splice as a means to give Vaarsuvius everything he/she ever wished for, but not have it be as useful as he/she assumed it to be. The Oracle pulled the same verbal trick on both V and the readers: replying positively to a phrase that connoted one thing, but only actually denoted a lesser thing.

Once V accepted the splices, he/she did have complete and total arcane power - insofar as he/she contained all three possible Soul Splices (and thus had a complete set), could use all of their spells at the same time (accessing the sum total of their magic), and had more total spell levels available than any other spell caster (giving him/her the ultimate selection of arcane powers).

Of course, more spells than anyone else does not necessarily mean every spell, and it certainly does not mean infinite power. Vaarsuvius may have assumed that it did - but then, this entire story is predicated on Vaarsuvius making careless assumptions.

And concerning V's power relative to Xykon:

In a strict roleplaying game by-the-numbers sense, the expectation was that V would mop the floor with Xykon. He/she did possess "ultimate arcane power" after all. Except, of course, that he/she didn't, not anymore. V was already flying into this battle with one engine down, so there was no telling how his/her power would stack up against the lich.

This battle needed to happen, and not just because readers would always wonder who would win in a fight, Xykon or soul-spliced Vaarsuvius? It needed to happen because V needed to be knocked off his/her perch and humbled if he/she was ever to rejoin the Order of the Stick. And that humbling could only happen at the hands of someone capable of physically beating him/her, because power is the only thing V understands.

[ShadowRudolph]

So the Snarl might never have existed? Could everything we've been told be a lie? May it be that the eastern gods are alive and well and have their own world inside the rift? Then what is the Dark One's real plan? Or maybe the Snarl eventually calmed down and created its own world? So many questions!

[ChristianSt]

So the Snarl might never have existed? Could everything we've been told be a lie? May it be that the eastern gods are alive and well and have their own world inside the rift? Then what is the Dark One's real plan? Or maybe the Snarl eventually calmed down and created its own world? So many questions!

If the world-within-the-world is the eastern god's world, I put my vote on the Dark One's plan on: He wants a world-within-the-world-within-the-world for his goblins

But then the question is, why is he lying to Redcloak? But I don't have the feeling that he does that (and I see no reason for that, nor for Redcloak lying about the plan). So I think we know the Dark One's real plan, but it could be possible that his plan might work as he thinks it does.

But yeah, something sneaky/mysterious is going on with the Snarl/gates/rift/world-within-the-world, but I think we need some more bunch of exposition before we can figure it out (presumable only after getting some more info about the Order of the Scribble).

[goldendragon]

Several speculations here.
1) The art image of V while possessed will be a red eyed ominous clothed V except with a ghost of the character developed Vaarsuvius floating above in chains (like with the other soul splices). Also, maybe the possesed V can change to look like the ordinary one.

2)As he/she feels herself beginning to change, he/she calls out to Blackwing, telling him to escape while he can and tell the order the truth about the gate. However, then she/he is possessed and either kills or almost kills Blackwing.

3)A perfect way to help the Order would be if Eugene saw the V in chains and came down to tell the Order, having already expressed a liking of he/she.

4)At the time the Snarl killed everybody on the planet, (which, for the purpose of this theory, I am assuming to be the world within the world) there was no such thing as an afterlife. So, the Snarl found a way to deal with all of these souls floating around the place. It turned the world into a 'hive' sort of deal. All the souls inhabit bodies and industrialize the world. They have limited free will, but the Snarl controls them all, like a puppetmaster.

5) The Gates were created, not only to keep any denizens from getting out, but also to allow transport in by a denizen of this world. Maybe they actually teleport a denizen of the OOTS'S world to a safe spot on the Snarl's world. However, when they are broken, it becomes a viewing portal.

I know these theories are all wildly improbable, but I'm just venting my ideas.
Nick

[Forikroder]

So the Snarl might never have existed? Could everything we've been told be a lie? May it be that the eastern gods are alive and well and have their own world inside the rift? Then what is the Dark One's real plan? Or maybe the Snarl eventually calmed down and created its own world? So many questions!

impossible because that means that Soon lied

then Snarl must ahve at one point existed (or something lived in the rifts and played the part)

4)At the time the Snarl killed everybody on the planet, (which, for the purpose of this theory, I am assuming to be the world within the world) there was no such thing as an afterlife. So, the Snarl found a way to deal with all of these souls floating around the place. It turned the world into a 'hive' sort of deal. All the souls inhabit bodies and industrialize the world. They have limited free will, but the Snarl controls them all, like a puppetmaster.

all known lore of the Snarl contradicts this because A) the souls were completely reduced to nothingness and B) the Snarl isnt supposed to be smart enough to pull of something like this

[Thrillhouse]

Hmm...I was thinking. It's just possible that the IIFC isn't about to collect their soul debt. Presumably Qarr is still there, so they might simply be telling him to execute some previously discussed plan. MAYBE.

[Forikroder]

Hmm...I was thinking. It's just possible that the IIFC isn't about to collect their soul debt. Presumably Qarr is still there, so they might simply be telling him to execute some previously discussed plan. MAYBE.

or maybe were seeing the end of the countdown like "Xykons going to arrive at the gate in 3... 2... 1... now"

or maybe Vs punding is about to cause a collapse killing him

[Kish]

or maybe were seeing the end of the countdown like "Xykons going to arrive at the gate in 3... 2... 1... now"

It seems, Forikroder, that the next strip will see you either collecting or paying off some bets.

[Gift Jeraff]

It seems, Forikroder, that the next strip will see you either collecting or paying off some bets.

Judging by the recent Passwall debate, Forikroder is allergic to crow.

[Tock Zipporah]

633: “The amount of raw energy from your four combined souls would dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane caster who has ever lived.”

634: “...your effective level would be so high that it’s pretty unlikely [you could gain XP].”

You can try to quibble about wording if you wish. But the obvious meaning would be that you are way above X, or anybody else.


This is not disputed. What is disputed is why. X was far superior in skill while V had all sorts of raw power.


This is not disputed. What is disputed is why. X was far superior in skill while V had all sorts of raw power.


Because I can almost do that myself [if the cops and other spoilsports didn't get in the way.] Cut the electric and phone lines and it is pretty much done. Even if everybody co-operated, I would still not be able to start to physically move all those people & property. X was also aided by a magic item, while V simply cast.


V is obviously using a much higher caster level than his normal, even after getting some negative levels. The idea that he is somehow lower than X really needs proving.
And X's comments, like...
“How you can have 10th level spell slots and still blow a concentration check that easy...”

“Here’s a pro tip for you"
Again show no disagreement that V is the stronger. X is saying he is the skilled one, not the powerful one.

"The amount of raw power you have combined" could easily be referring only to total number of spell slots. It says nothing whatsoever about CASTER level.

"Effective level" being high is not the same as CASTER level being high. If you have a level adjustment, or you multiclass, your "effective level" is much higher than your caster level for determining spell effects.

As for proof he is lower caster level than Xykon:
1. Xykon uses a 12th level spell in the fight. V never uses anything above 10th. Any arguments about using metamagic rods or sudden-metamagic feats are invalid since they could apply to both people equally.
2. Xykon's superb dispelling knocked out all of V's buffs without trouble. If V was an uber level 50+ caster (his base level 14 + Ganonron 21 or higher + Jephton 21 or higher = 55) Then even Superb Dispelling would have had trouble working.
3. V being "higher than his normal caster level" is explained by simply using Ganonron's caster level (21+), which is a lot higher than normal V but not shown to be higher than Xykon.

And your argument about cutting the phone lines is preposterous and invalid as it would not block magical scrying or teleportation effects. Seriously, come on.

[Tragak]

"Power = Caster Level"

Personally, I read Xykon's "Power = Power" speech as meaning that neither caster level nor spell slots matter when the other guy is more creative and well-rounded. Xykon's losing a magic duel? He makes it a melee fight.

[Sir_Leorik]

As the joke goes: "Who do you think has all the lawyers?"

No, the joke's punchline is "they had the better lawyers".

[Sir_Leorik]

The fiends did not go to the trouble and risk of the
Splice just to make V do nothing. In particular they did not want to take him over when there is nothing he can do. They have some positive goal for him. While this can be about anything major, it is most likely that there is some way, with their help, to reach the gate, take control of it, and pass that control to the fiends.

We don't know what the IFCC really want from the Gates. If they want them destroyed, then the best use of the banked time right now is to call in the marker for one Director, have that director possess V's body and then use a Full-Round Action to dismiss Blackwing from V's service. Then the rest of the banked time is used having V's body flee to the exit of the Pyramid.

If they want to use the Gates for some purpose, then their best bet is to do the exact same thing. Kraagor's Gate will still be standing, and all the sides will be heading there next. The IFCC have deliberately stated that they want conflict, and the best way to ensure conflict is to let Roy destroy Girard's Gate.

Also, by dismissing Blackwing the IFCC will remove the best source of counsel that V has been listening to since the end of DStP. A dismissed familiar can't be recalled until a year and a day have passed.

[Amphiox]

V put up a really good fight with only 2 of the 3 splices so id say it doesnt matter if they excluded Xykon since he unarguably had more power then Xykon before he lost Haerta

then she failed a will save and lost her best shot

I agree.

In fact, I think it possible that if V had lost the other two and just kept Haerta, she might have beaten Xykon. She pops in and before Xykon energy drains Haerta's epic spells (assuming he could, as Haerta was probably significantly higher level than the other two), launches a epic necromantic liche controlling or destroying spell.

Plus, Haerta probably knows LOTS about Liches and how they work, what they can do, and what their weaknesses are, and could be advising V on combat strategy during the fight.

Of course, without Ganonron, he probably could not have teleported to the location through the Cloister in the first place....

[Forikroder]

We don't know what the IFCC really want from the Gates. If they want them destroyed, then the best use of the banked time right now is to call in the marker for one Director, have that director possess V's body and then use a Full-Round Action to dismiss Blackwing from V's service. Then the rest of the banked time is used having V's body flee to the exit of the Pyramid.

If they want to use the Gates for some purpose, then their best bet is to do the exact same thing. Kraagor's Gate will still be standing, and all the sides will be heading there next. The IFCC have deliberately stated that they want conflict, and the best way to ensure conflict is to let Roy destroy Girard's Gate.

Also, by dismissing Blackwing the IFCC will remove the best source of counsel that V has been listening to since the end of DStP. A dismissed familiar can't be recalled until a year and a day have passed.

couldnt they have Q be invisible in the gate room and just blast the gate? he can teleport in easily enough and has disintagrate to blow it up

[Amphiox]

Because it would say: "DO NOT DESTROY THE GATE..." "...now."
Instead it says: "DO NOT DESTROY THE-" "Now."

Despite what most of the Internet may think, punctuation and capital letters do matter. Also, words.
Nice thinking outside the box, though.

The assumption behind that WMG is that "gate" is muffled out in between panels to give the author plausible deniability in hiding the plot twist....

It is, after all, a WILD mass guess....

[Sir_Leorik]

Perfect
Of course, it is, since if he had helped Right-Eye kill Xykon in SoD, then none of this would have happened.

If Eugene had written down the correct spelling of "Xykon" for Keeno in SoD, then none of this would have happened.

Xyklon: "Sigh. GUARDS! Fetch the "Ben & Jerry's"!"

[Sir_Leorik]

All we have says V was way above X in power. The promises of the fiends for unmatched power are going to be possibly technically flawed, but to have a valid deal, which they very much wanted, V has to be top gun, and indisputably so.

You are making a ton of assumptions about what the IFCC directors offered V. They offered her "Magical power beyond your wildest imaginings!*" "*Based on typical wildest imaginings of previous customers matching your demographic profile. Additional terms and restrictions may apply."

They did not offer V unmatched power. They offered her "magical power beyond [her] wildest imaginings". They did not quantify how powerful that was, merely making a standard legal disclaimer joke as a punchline.

Furthermore, in the author commentary to DStP, the Giant explains how the spell splice both fulfilled The Oracle's prophecy to V, and how V misunderstood what it was she was seeking. Only when the Soul-Splice wore off did V begin to use intelligent tactics rather than blasting everything in sight. And as a result she was able to pull out her two best running gags: Blackwing and the explosive runes.

In any event, if V wants to argue that what she got was not what the IFCC directors offered, their response in a nutshell would probably be: "So sue us."

That's logical fallacy. Nothing about the fiends' deal promises V will be the "most powerful wizard with the highest caster level." Everything about the battle against Xykon indicates they are, at best, about an even match.

The IFCC directors did not raise the issue of caster levels. They offered V access to her two barred schools (necromancy and conjuration) and spontaneous casting of any spell in Gononron, Haerta and V's spellbooks via Jephton's Sorcerous blood. And V got to keep access to the soul-splice so long as she could maintain control of Gononron, Haerta and Jephton. After Inkyrious yelled at V to keep away from their family, V lost control of Haerta. She later went into battle with Xykon with only two out of three engines still working. Plus, Xykon was getting help from Redcloak, Jirix and Tsukiko during their fight, V did not have access to Gononron or Jephton's Concentration skill, and V's tactics will to use her spells as blunt instruments. And no one uses spells like blunt instruments better than Xykon.

The only chance V had was when she teamed up with O-Chul and Blackwing to keep Xykon's phylactery away from him. At that point she used clever tactics and teamwork. (A little MitDeus Ex Machina didn't hurt. )

[Sir_Leorik]

couldnt they have Q be invisible in the gate room and just blast the gate? he can teleport in easily enough and has disintagrate to blow it up

Based on Qarr's recent track record, I think that would be a bad idea. Besides, if Roy's willing to destroy the Gate for them anyway...

[Cynric]

Nonononononono! Vaarsuvius was making such progress!

I don't know how many more OotS bitch-slap moments I can handle at this point!

[Sir_Leorik]

This is not disputed. What is disputed is why. X was far superior in skill while V had all sorts of raw power.

Xykon was more powerful than V was with Gononron and Jephton. Here's why:

1) Xykon is a Lich. That provides him with a shopping list of immunities and special attacks that he never needs to burn a spell slot to have. Chain lightning will never affect Xykon, and he never need to cast protection from energy to get that immunity. Xykon can paralyze a humanoid with a touch attack, without ever needing to cast hold person. Xykon has better hearing, eyesight and insight than V does, and he can sneak about with more grace while invisible too. As Xykon said, all this is a form of power that V doesn't have.

2) Gononron and Jephton may have high level spell slots, but V's Concentration skill is awful. A single trap cost V her time stop spell, which was one of the keys to the Black Dragon's defeat.

3) Xykon is better at using spells as blunt instruments. He did it to Dorukan and he did it to Gononron and Jephton, all using a single spell: energy drain. Go and read Xykon's speeches to Dorukan and Redcloak at the climax to SoD to understand why V was in over her head.

4) Xykon had help from his flunkies; V was for all intents and purposes coming in solo. Gononron and Jephton don't count; they were glorified buffs that the IFCC gave to V. Redcloak's true seeing spell discovered the soul-splice and Tsukiko's mind fog harmed V's Will save, once Xykon dispelled V's buffs.

5) Xykon used better tactics. He listened to Redcloak for a change, cast superb dispelling and then hit V with a rock. Paper may beat rock, but a rock will bash in an Elf Wizard's brains any day of the week.

Yes V had more spell slots during the splice. But having more spell slots aren't the most important thing in the game if you cast the wrong spells (or your spells don't have the desired effect). Xykon used four spells, a pre-existing trap and a large piece of masonry to knock Gononron and Jephton out of V. V used two spells and Blackwing to toss Xykon's phylactery into the sewers of Azure City. In the short term, Xykon used less power than spliced-V to beat her. Then non-spliced V, teaming up with O-Chul, used even less power to land a long term set-back to Xykon. The answer is that non-spliced V is more power than both Xykon and spliced-V, because she uses her head.

[Kish]

Nonononononono! Vaarsuvius was making such progress!

I don't know how many more OotS bitch-slap moments I can handle at this point!

If I was positively inclined toward Vaarsuvius at this point, I'd be glad to see the Sword of Damocles start to fall, since there's absolutely no way it was ever going to remain firmly attached to the ceiling for the duration of the comic.

The sooner it drops, the sooner Vaarsuvius can start to recover from it dropping.

[Gusion]

This covers a few different things. I've been catching up.

Haley is a PC. Comic #581.

I can totally see Belkar becoming a vampire himself. They don't breathe.

The IFCC's "Now" does not automatically mean they're taking over V. It could also be signaling Xykon's arrival, "now." Or one of several other options. They have been watching on their blood plasma HD television after all.

In fact, as far as I'm aware all talk of what happens when the IFCC takes over V's soul is speculation. I think it is fair to assume that V's soul will not be able to cast spells if it is ripped out of his body... if Haerta couldn't I doubt V could. But if we're going to speculate it makes the most sense that V's soul would stay in his body. But all this aside, what are the IFCC's goal?

If we believe #668, they want conflict. We know Sabine (in theory) reports to them. What we don't know is their exact plan with the gate. I guess that they want this gate destroyed and everyone to survive.

It would make sense to let them all escape and go get reinforcements. That's what is missing here - there are what... three adventuring parties here? That's not conflict. But only one gate remaining... nation states will get involved. Tarquin controls armies. The Elves. The Goblins. Epic murder on a massive scale... with the IFCC ending up in control of the gate.

The downside of all this? Nale probably lives. Sabine returns after her banishment wears off. Ug, I hate Nale. What a worthless character.

[zimmerwald1915]

The sooner it drops, the sooner Vaarsuvius can start to recover from it dropping.

Eh, a few hours, days, or weeks one way or another won't make any difference. She won't have time to recover from it before Xykon is destroyed.

[Forikroder]

Based on Qarr's recent track record, I think that would be a bad idea. Besides, if Roy's willing to destroy the Gate for them anyway...

why are people taking "Q was unable to trick the smartest person in OoTS" as "Q is hopeless incompetent"

V was smart enough tounderstand his predicament so he was unable to be bluffed, Q did however get V on the move which is something im sure the Directers wanted

as for why it could be there on a timetable and with Vs interference not willing to wait any longer

[137beth]

why are people taking "Q was unable to trick the smartest person in OoTS" as "Q is hopeless incompetent"

V was smart enough tounderstand his predicament so he was unable to be bluffed, Q did however get V on the move which is something im sure the Directers wanted

as for why it could be there on a timetable and with Vs interference not willing to wait any longer

Qarr is also too stupid to outsmart Blackwing...

[Forikroder]

Qarr is also too stupid to outsmart Blackwing...

id hardly call what blackwing did "outsmarting Quar" if Quar had been baited in any way or was in any way inconvenienced by Blackwings wit that would be one thing

Quar offered Blackwing a deal, Blackwing was smart enough to never make a deal with a devil thats hardly outsmarting Quar since nothing Quar would or could say would have changed BWs mind

[Gusion]

Quar offered Blackwing a deal, Blackwing was smart enough to never make a deal with a devil thats hardly outsmarting Quar

It outsmarted V...

[David Argall]

"The amount of raw power you have combined" could easily be referring only to total number of spell slots. It says nothing whatsoever about CASTER level.

So? We are discussing whether Super-V should have been able to blow X away, not some academic measure. Nor is caster level anything beyond a general case. When one says "..could easily...", one is admitting the opposite is also possible.

"Effective level" being high is not the same as CASTER level being high. If you have a level adjustment, or you multiclass, your "effective level" is much higher than your caster level for determining spell effects.

And the effective level would be that standard we would use. Our 1 hp minion can be several caster levels higher that the party and we don't even consider him a serious threat when we throw him at the party.

As for proof he is lower caster level than Xykon:
1. Xykon uses a 12th level spell in the fight. V never uses anything above 10th. Any arguments about using metamagic rods or sudden-metamagic feats are invalid since they could apply to both people equally.

But this is arguing from silence. It is virtually never fully convincing, and often enough worthless as evidence.

2. Xykon's superb dispelling knocked out all of V's buffs without trouble. If V was an uber level 50+ caster (his base level 14 + Ganonron 21 or higher + Jephton 21 or higher = 55) Then even Superb Dispelling would have had trouble working.
3. V being "higher than his normal caster level" is explained by simply using Ganonron's caster level (21+), which is a lot higher than normal V but not shown to be higher than Xykon.

Ganonron had been hit by several negative levels at this point. Even if argument 3 is accepted, his base level could easily be higher than X's. And "not shown" does not mean "proven the reverse". We also have to say that X's level has not been shown to be higher.
We also have to consider these offers. They were presented as the best an entire plane had to offer. That really ought to mean they were caster level 50+ each. But even when we assign a lower level, saying that X is the very best of all time and space is at least a reach. We just have too much evidence that he is no more than a superman rivaled by several others at this current day.

And your argument about cutting the phone lines is preposterous and invalid as it would not block magical scrying or teleportation effects. Seriously, come on.

Why wouldn't it? Scrying and teleportation are both positive effects, which means they fail unless they succeed. To use our "real world" cases again, we can't scry[use the phone lines] when they are out of commission. Nor can we teleport/use the planes when the airports are shut down. Either may require much more than I can do, but compared to moving the entire fleet, the effort involved is trivial.

[Forikroder]

It outsmarted V...

V was literally 9/10ths insane at that point and was willing to do anything to protect his family

BW was 10/10ths sane at taht point and knew the best thing he could do for V was keep himself alive

BW called Qs bluff there wasnt any outsmarting going on