OOTS #904 - The Discussion Thread

[drazen]

Then the elemental would start attacking them at random. Only Human+Greatsword gives us a tank role in this fight.

No. Redcloak told the elemental to "Kill everyone, starting with the human with the greatsword."

Therefore, in order to kill everyone, and still literally fulfill its orders, it must first kill "the human with a greatsword." Otherwise, it is not starting the killing the way it was commanded to.

[King of Nowhere]

Roy's face in the third to last panel is the best!

[Porthos]

Uh...

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They already died by the technicality.

I mean, not literally, of course. But Haley exploited technicalities in order to get the sand elemental to chase her, and then Roy got shafted because of the technicality that Haley doesn't have a quiver.

Or rather

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the technicality that Roy doesn't have a quiver of arrows (and why would he, anyway). Shown humorously, of course before the 'miss the joke much?' brigade shows up.

No. Redcloak told the elemental to "Kill everyone, starting with the human with the greatsword."

Therefore, in order to kill everyone, and still literally fulfill its orders, it must first kill "the human with a greatsword." Otherwise, it is not starting the killing the way it was commanded to.

Do you want to take that chance? Seems to me that its a bit of an iffy proposition.

[pendell]

Well, since everyone ELSE is having a shot at coding up the thing, I guess I'll try too.

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import java.util.Date;

Target selectTarget() {
boolean greatswordFound = false;
Target returnTarget = null;
List<Target> targetList = Target.getAllIntelligentBeingsByDescendingCr();
for (currentTarget : targetList) {
if (currentTarget.isHuman() && currentTarget.hasGreatSword) {
returnTarget = currentTarget;
greatswordFound = true;
} else if (!greatswordFound) {
returnTarget = currentTarget;
}
}
return returnTarget;
}
void elemental(Date summonExpire) {

Date currentTime = new Date();
Target aTarget = null;
while (currentTime.before(summonExpire) {
aTarget = selectTarget();
if (aTarget != null) {
killTarget();
} else {
doNothing();
}
currentTime = new Date();
}


}

So I interpret the instructions this way: So long as a human with a greatsword is alive within the elemental's sensing range, it will attempt to kill that human. If no such human is alive, it will simply kill "everyone" where everyone is presumably "any obvious sapient being". I assume it will start with the target with the highest CR and work its way down. That wasn't specified by Redcloak but I think that would be common sense on the part of an INT-10 creature, wouldn't it?

After all targets are killed, it would do nothing until either a new target presented itself or the summon time expired.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gamgee]

Yeah Roy... jeez.

[FiestaSalsa]

So a Silicon Elemental wouldn't be the same as a sand one eh? Because aren't sand elementals vulnerable to cold...

[King of Nowhere]

Also, I wonder if the joke about arrows is a poke about people nitpicking in the forum

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

This comic is proof that The Giant reads the forum and hates the overanalyzers, nitpickers, rules advocates and the FDLs -- that's a category I'm inventing now, the fiddly-little-detailers.

[drazen]

Do you want to take that chance? Seems to me that its a bit of an iffy proposition.

Considering I've never actually seen an elemental "expire" in the comic -- only be dismissed by scroll or summoner, or killed outright (by Tsukiko) -- I'm simply not sure the Stick really has a better idea at this point.

[SoC175]

Why do we assume this? The way I imagine it, the instructions for the elemental are:

while (humansExist()){
firstTarget = getPersonWithSword();
until firstTarget.isDead(){
attack(firstTarget);
}
attackEverybodyElse();
}

If it cannot kill the person with the greatsword, it should stop.

Except that the elemental is not a computer or mindless construct. It's fully sentient, as sentient as a human.

I really like the arrow joke, the greatsword swapping I find pretty lame.

Good that Redcloak didn't point at Roy and told the elemental to start with the human over there, otherwise it would have stood still and did nothing as soon as Roy moved a few feet (going by that greatsword logic)

Still waiting for someone to try a club (or mace, etc.) on the Si elemental. It really doesn't seem they are doing any (significant) damage to the thing and that could be because it has DR to piercing/slashing. It's made of sand, after all.

Even better. Elder elementals just have DR 10/-

Doubtful. Immune to crits=an Elemental Burst weapon will never go off.

Actually an icy burts' crit extra cold is just the icing. An icy burst weapon also deals 1d6 cold with every hit just like a normal cold weapon

[PeglegJim]

Hey a humorous comic. Feels like it's been a while.

[kxm]

Slightly upset about being wrong in the "human with a greatsword" dispute, but the jokes more than made up for it.

[pendell]

This comic is proof that The Giant reads the forum and hates the overanalyzers, nitpickers, rules advocates and the FDLs -- that's a category I'm inventing now, the fiddly-little-detailers.

I'm not convinced that's true.

I don't think I could find it in me, personally, to hate the people who come to my web forum day after day, read every strip, and plunk down money for kickstarter stuff, books, and other merchandise.

"hate" is a strong term. "Poke fun at in a comedy strip" is more like it. *I* am one of those rule lawyers, and if I see the joke hits at me a little bit, I'm going to have a laugh at myself in a good-hearted way. I don't think the Giant is doing it to be mean or to flip off his fan base. I think he's doing it as good-natured teasing and trying to lighten what has been up to now a fairly sombre series of strips. Durkon vampirized? V sucked into hell? Evil triumphant? Yeah, I think we COULD do with a laugh about now.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fish]

LIVE by the technicality ... Live a good LONG TIME!

[squeak]

[Oko and Qailee]

Best Punchline Ever

[gorocz]

I don't think I've ever seen Haley with unibrow like Roy so often has... I mean, she has the sword for a minute and already acts like him

Might be I have just never noticed her like that before...

Doubtful. Immune to crits=an Elemental Burst weapon will never go off.
As he and Haley referenced, Roy is proficient in all simple and martial weapons as a class feature.

Elemental Bursts add 1-6 points of elemental damage even on non-crits. So they're doing a small amount of damage on every hit, even if they wouldn't bypass his DR (if he has any). Also some DMs rule that the burst damage (and other on-crit effects) works even on confirmed crits on crit-immune monsters, but that's probably just house-ruling...

[Alaska Fan]

Which leads to a pretty good strategy:

Roy tells Elan to create an illusion of ten humans with great swords, running in different directions away from the SI elemental.

[attriel]

This comic is proof that The Giant reads the forum and hates the overanalyzers, nitpickers, rules advocates and the FDLs -- that's a category I'm inventing now, the fiddly-little-detailers.

"Hates" in the "OMG, get over it already, I forgot it was +5!!!".

And don't we all hate them! (unless they're helping us, in which case, they are TOTALLY CORRECT!!!)

Also, Fiddly-Little-Detailers being FDL is gonna drive them nuts

[Oko and Qailee]

Except that the elemental is not a computer or mindless construct. It's fully sentient, as sentient as a human.

I really like the arrow joke, the greatsword swapping I find pretty lame.

Good that Redcloak didn't point at Roy and told the elemental to start with the human over there, otherwise it would have stood still and did nothing as soon as Roy moved a few feet (going by that greatsword logic)

You see, really what happened was that Haley's bluff is just too high.

I would have fell for it too.

[Cynric]

Never noticed Haley didn't have a quiver before. Hooray for suspension of disbelief!

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

"hate" is a strong term. "Poke fun at in a comedy strip" is more like it.

Yes, that it what I was trying to say. The word came out stronger than I wanted.

"Hates" in the "OMG, get over it already, I forgot it was +5!!!".

This.

[Goosefeather]

I don't think I've ever seen Haley with unibrow like Roy so often has... I mean, she has the sword for a minute and already acts like him

Might be I have just never noticed her like that before...

I think you just haven't noticed it. If you mean the 'V' shape, she can be seen with it just two strips ago, and if you're referring to the flatter expression of the last panel, she has it as recently as #896.

[gorocz]

I think you just haven't noticed it. If you mean the 'V' shape, she can be seen with it just two strips ago, and if you're referring to the flatter expression of the last panel, she has it as recently as #896.

Ok, it's gotta be the sword that made it stand out to me so

(And yes, I was referring to the flat position)

[Gwynfrid]

Most hilarious comic in quite a while, that joke about not ever tracking ammunition was fantastic. After all the horrors happening to Belkar and Durkon, and the tension around V and the gate, this is really welcome.

... Cleverly paced, too. You rock, Rich.

[137beth]

Perfect, from the title I sorta expected to see V alive (and banishing elementals) due to the "no harm" technicality from the IFCC, but this works.

[Throknor]

The INT score and stupidity have nothing to do with it. Redcloak could have meant either one. For instance, if the greatsword was +5 vs. Goblins, then clearly whichever person has it is the biggest threat against the one who summed the elemental. You and I know that's not the case, but the elemental doesn't.

The order was ambiguous. Note that Haley didn't say, "I'm the one you're supposed to kill first"; she said, "Are you sure I'm not the one you're supposed to kill first?"

She's trying to confuse it based on ambiguity.

Maybe she just successfully bluffed the thing. She did ask it in a way that could introduce self-doubt, and bluffing is something she's very good at.

Of course, if so she might not be able to just pass the sword again.

[yooy]

Why do we assume this? The way I imagine it, the instructions for the elemental are:

while (humansExist()){
firstTarget = getPersonWithSword();
until firstTarget.isDead(){
attack(firstTarget);
}
attackEverybodyElse();
}

If it cannot kill the person with the greatsword, it should stop.

Ignoring the fact there's no reason it should be programming, that would be pretty poor programming. Unnecessary resources used checking the while loop every time with no reason to do so, doing that just uses more resources and makes it exploitable.
The only reasonable thing to do would be an if else statement. Much less resources used and less exploitable.

[RMS Oceanic]

Why do we assume this? The way I imagine it, the instructions for the elemental are:

while (humansExist()){
firstTarget = getPersonWithSword();
until firstTarget.isDead(){
attack(firstTarget);
}
attackEverybodyElse();
}

If it cannot kill the person with the greatsword, it should stop.

The primary order is "kill everyone", so one of two things happen depending on how it can't kill him:

- Target is invincible: Wails on target until target stops being invincible or disappears
- Target leaves: Returns to standard orders of killing everyone.

So I don't think it "stops" until it succeeds or is forced to.

[Deepbluediver]

Maybe she just successfully bluffed the thing. She did ask it in a way that could introduce self-doubt, and bluffing is something she's very good at.

Of course, if so she might not be able to just pass the sword again.

Maybe the elemental doesn't like being summoned, and is interpreting its orders in the least-beneficial manner possible, AKA the Jerkass Genie trope.

We can propose lots of things, but prove very little.

[TruDivination]

This may be a bit of a stretch, but what happens if Belkar is holding the sword? He's not a human, so the elemental may be unable to carry out it's orders, specifically, "Kill everyone, starting with the human with the greatsword." If it is unable to "start" killing everyone else, what will happen? I'm not sure what happens to elementals unable to complete their orders though.