throwing cats at commoners

[A Tad Insane]

People always joke about how commoners are so weak a cat could kill them, but has anyone ever thrown a cat at a real person and recorded the results? I know, emprically, that most humans are stronger and could crush a cat with ease, but the same holds true for most dogs, yet people still fear a dog bite, even a non fatal one.

Or is there a secert cat fighting society were people fight cats, and I'm literally the only person who doesn't know of its existance.

[Amaril]

Or is there a secert cat fighting society were people fight cats, and I'm literally the only person who doesn't know of its existance.

If that were the case, it wouldn't be much of a secret, now would it?

I really don't know much about the physical capabilities of house cats relative to those of humans, but I imagine a sufficiently angry or desperate cat could probably tear a human's throat up badly enough to kill them. Whether the cat would survive the attempt, I don't know.

[LimeSkeleton]

What a morbid topic! I guess it depends on the cat. An everyday housecat who has been pampered for their entire life probably wouldn't be too frightening, but maybe an alley cat that's had to survive by itself in the "wild" could perhaps be more dangerous. I mean, there's the possibility that it could carry some sort of disease with it, although I'm no veterinarian.

[SethoMarkus]

I don't think this is based on cats real-world abilities so much as it is based on commoners being drastically short-changed in 3.x. I mean, really, cough hard enough on a commoner and they drop dead (unless they are Joe Wood).

In real life, I don't think that a house cat could cause significant enough damage to an adult human to kill them out right, but might open wounds that become infected and cause death through disease. House cats just aren't powerful enough to get through even the meekest of human defensive gestures; hurting, yes; killing, not so much. I suppose an angry cat might kill an unconscious or otherwise helpless human if they decided to use him as a scratch post... though it would take more than the 12 seconds a D&D cat can mess up a commoner in.

[TheStranger]

Or is there a secert cat fighting society were people fight cats, and I'm literally the only person who doesn't know of its existance.

My experience is that all cat owners find themselves in this society sooner or later.

I don't think this is based on cats real-world abilities so much as it is based on commoners being drastically short-changed in 3.x. I mean, really, cough hard enough on a commoner and they drop dead (unless they are Joe Wood).

In real life, I don't think that a house cat could cause significant enough damage to an adult human to kill them out right, but might open wounds that become infected and cause death through disease. House cats just aren't powerful enough to get through even the meekest of human defensive gestures; hurting, yes; killing, not so much. I suppose an angry cat might kill an unconscious or otherwise helpless human if they decided to use him as a scratch post... though it would take more than the 12 seconds a D&D cat can mess up a commoner in.

The problem isn't that commoners are weak (they are, but that's ok), it's that D&D insists that every attack does at least 1 damage. And/or that it doesn't scale the effectiveness of attacks based on the size difference between attacker and target.

[Souju]

they also insist on giving cats 3 attacks per round.
I dunno about you, but even when pissed off my cat never claw-claw-bites ANYTHING.
...though that's really my problem with fight mechanics involving animals in general. While i've seen real animals use the "pounce" mechanic often, I don't think i've ever seen a cat, even a tiger or lion, attack with both its claws consecutively and follow up with a bite.
So really, a cat should be CAPABLE of three attacks per round if it's a familiar or animal companion, but a standard garden variety house cat shouldn't do that under normal circumstances, thus giving the garden variety commoner more than 12 seconds of life against Sir Pouncealot.

...really if you ask me, a creature shouldn't be able to have more attacks per round than it has hit dice.

[Grod_The_Giant]

but the same holds true for most dogs

I don't know about that. Yeah, you can out-muscle a poodle without too much trouble, but what about something the size of a lab? In a fight between a commoner and a hundred-pound dog, I'd take the dog.

[Xelbiuj]

they also insist on giving cats 3 attacks per round.
I dunno about you, but even when pissed off my cat never claw-claw-bites ANYTHING.

Ever had a cat? If it's the playful type and you mess with it, grabbing its belly n whatnot. They have a tendency to bite between your thumb and index finger, wrap their paws around your hand and dig in, then rake with their hind legs.
Freaking ouch. lol

[Warlawk]

I worked with a guy years ago who got a kitten. He thought it would be cool to essentially teach his kitten to 'hunt' him. He would put on elbow length gloves and let the cat go nuts attacking and scratching his hand, he would play a little rough with it like that (please note, not abusive at all, just taught the cat to really go after that gloved hand).

Well, a few months later as the cat is nearly full grown, he was laying on the couch taking a nap. He came to work the next day with bandages from his shoulder up across his neck, around his ear and the back of his head. The cat had ran out of the bedroom and pounced onto him while he was sleeping and ripped a lot of little holes into his neck. This cat was 'playing' and not even actively trying to hurt him.

It seems like the thing most people forget when making these kind of discussions is that animals don't fight fair. They aren't going to wait until you're ready for a fight. They will stalk you and attack when you aren't ready. Or in the case of canines they will bring a pack of friends with them. These animals are hunters, and they are the survivors of millions of years of evolution to make them good at that. Sure if you put a man and a cat in an open empty room and say that there can only be one survivor the conclusion is pretty well a given. Put them in a forest where the cat can hide, climb, stalk, potentially wait for night time or for the human to sleep... even a housecat determined to kill a human could probably pull it off if it was smart enough to hit and run since chances are slim the average city dwelling human will have even the slightest chance of seeing/tracking a hunting feline in a wilderness setting.

[Berenger]

I once had to bathe a rather small housecat.

I'm not especially strong, but I'm fairly certain I have a 10-11-ish strenght and I was unable to hold that little critter. Two hands her were not enoug to stop her from pulling herself over my stomach, shoulder and back with her claws ripping my shirt and leaving deep, bloody scratches. Granted, this was not so much a fight as a grappling check, but still. I lost.

[Lapak]

I once had to bathe a rather small housecat.

I'm not especially strong, but I'm fairly certain I have a 10-11-ish strenght and I was unable to hold that little critter. Two hands her were not enoug to stop her from pulling herself over my stomach, shoulder and back with her claws ripping my shirt and leaving deep, bloody scratches. Granted, this was not so much a fight as a grappling check, but still. I lost.

I would submit that you lost because you were attempting to grapple the cat without injuring it. If you were fighting the cat instead of bathing it, it would not be an issue; cats do not have the mass or muscle to overpower an adult human being that isn't restraining him- or herself.

[RandomNPC]

Thing about cats is the claws, there's a reason they can't climb back down out of trees, they've got hooks for claws. If a cat gets into you, you're either going to bleed a lot or take the time to grab the cats paw and move it forward and up from the fresh punctures. In that time, it'll rake with back claws.

People have been hospitalized by cats due to a bit of splashed water and a cat with above average hydrophobia. I could see a cat taking someone out, but it'd be the exception. In a true combat situation as soon as the cat tries to latch on and rake you would get a grip on it and go all out.

I could see the cat drawing first blood almost every time.

[Zahhak]

My group is getting together on Friday for a birthday. I'm now thinking we should actually run some 3.x battles between house cats and commoners. The possible youtube video will be posted here.

[Alejandro]

As a person who has and loves cats dearly, cats are merciless predators, against their prey types. Against a human, they'd prefer to flee in a short burst of speed and go somewhere the human cannot follow; they have no reason to battle a human.

In a straight up fight, the human will win, but will get cut up unless wearing protective gear.

[LimeSkeleton]

My group is getting together on Friday for a birthday. I'm now thinking we should actually run some 3.x battles between house cats and commoners. The possible youtube video will be posted here.

That sounds hilarious, please do post it!

[Beleriphon]

Here's a hint. A man in the Ukraine was killed by a beaver. A beaver. It got mad enough at him and severed an artery.

Cats could do the same thing, however unlikely.

[Kyberwulf]

The only problem I have with this scenario is that it all assumes that the cat is fighting a Level 1 commoner, or a Level 1... erm, cat.

[Incanur]

Are there any documented instances of a house cat or even something like a bobcat killing a person? I've heard of at least one that involved significant injury, but never fatality.

[elliott20]

I always imagine that we're not talking about 7 lb house cat, but rather more like a small jaguar, like a lynx or something.

[awa]

beavers bite through wood and weigh on average 40+ pounds a beaver bite is nothing to laugh at. a beaver bite is vastly more dangerous then that of a house cat and even then (assuming your talking about the story i think you are) it was a lucky shot that only happened because some one tried to pick up a wild animal.

thing is in real life cat needs to be very luck to bring down a human.

all these examples of dangerous cats were people dealing with pets where the human started at a disadvantage and did not want to hurt much less kill the cat.

[BWR]

People always joke about how commoners are so weak a cat could kill them, but has anyone ever thrown a cat at a real person and recorded the results? I know, emprically, that most humans are stronger and could crush a cat with ease, but the same holds true for most dogs, yet people still fear a dog bite, even a non fatal one.

What people said about cats holds true. Thing about dogs is they have massively powerful jaws. Even tiny dogs can deliver a nasty bite. While the claws and bite of a cat can be painful, it's mostly superficial. A dog's bite can do a lot more damage. If you're strong of stomach, Google pictures of what it looks like when dogs attack humans.

And most dogs people fear are a lot bigger than a housecat. The housecat is so small that unless it hits your eyes it's only going to do superficial damage. Even something the size of a lynx, smaller than a Labrador, would royally mess you up if it decided to. Look at these scratches, and that's just the cat saying "leave me alone", not trying to do serious damage.

[Gettles]

Are there any documented instances of a house cat or even something like a bobcat killing a person? I've heard of at least one that involved significant injury, but never fatality.

I know someone who was hospitalized due to injuries caused by her cat.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Sure if you put a man and a cat in an open empty room and say that there can only be one survivor the conclusion is pretty well a given.

Your missing the point, the point is using D&D rules in that empty room the cat has decent chance of beating the commoner.
If the cat has the opportunity to sneak up on the commoner he'll almost certainly win.

[Fouredged Sword]

This is why many people play in a world where level 2 is roughly adulthood, and most commoners are level 2-3. Level one represents a youth or totally inexperienced person.

But yes, we are seeing a flaw in our simulationist / gamist balance here.

[awa]

like others have said the only reason a cat can kill a commoner is because damage the minimum damage is to high. If average adult is level 3 you get a lot of level inflation. Now you need to give every orc and goblin extra levels or else your saying a guy who has never fought a day in his life is just as skilled as a warrior in a brutal cut throat society and so on.

[Jay R]

Or is there a secert cat fighting society were people fight cats, and I'm literally the only person who doesn't know of its existance.

You'll never know. The first rule of Cat Fight Club is ....

[elliott20]

You'll never know. The first rule of Cat Fight Club is ....

"U KANT TALK CHEESEBURGER"?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I've just always ruled that if you're smaller (by size category) than your target, then you can deal 0 damage if your STR modifier is negative. However, if you are delivering disease or poison, successful attacks still prompt the relevant save.

I think I adopted that rule about 2002. Never looked back.

[Rhynn]

The problem isn't that commoners are weak (they are, but that's ok), it's that D&D insists that every attack does at least 1 damage. And/or that it doesn't scale the effectiveness of attacks based on the size difference between attacker and target.

To get even more-nitpicky and a bit historical...

In Original D&D, all HDs were 1d6 (but you didn't get 1 per level), and all attacks dealt 1d6 damage. The basic thinking was this: an attack with any weapon can kill a person, but sometimes they don't. Heroes are harder to kill, because stories (Howard, Leiber, etc.). That's pretty sound. You made one attack in a round, probably representing a whole bunch of back-and-forth. Domestic cats did not have stats, because domestic cats are not enemies you need to fight.

This started to get stretched out of shape in later editions, though. And then we get to D&D 3.5, where - for reasons of stupidity - domestic cats get three attacks and can actually deal damage. This is based on the incorrect assumptions that any attack needs to be modelled and to deal damage. Not so: if a housecat is not really capable of killing a grown man or injuring, e.g., a person in plate armor, it shouldn't have attacks or deal damage. The reasonable attack statistics for a housecat would be no attacks, for 0 damage.

This does present a problem with scaling, though: if you cast animal growth on that housecat, it should probably get big enough to hurt people (the size of a cougar, maybe). If it doesn't have attacks in its statblock, then it won't have attacks when made bigger. If it has attacks for 0 damage, those don't grow into more than 0 damage.

There's two solutions: let damage be reduced to 0 by Str modifiers (giving the housecat something like 1d3-3/1d2-3), or include a "0" step on the "damage scaling" table...

[Killer Angel]

People always joke about how commoners are so weak a cat could kill them, but has anyone ever thrown a cat at a real person and recorded the results? I know, emprically, that most humans are stronger and could crush a cat with ease, but the same holds true for most dogs, yet people still fear a dog bite, even a non fatal one.

That really depends on the dog...

Anyway: toxoplasmosis and feline rabies, count?