Massive Thwappage - help me spec out my barbarian!

[Spasticteapot]

During character creation, I rolled 2 17's and 2 16's. My stats go as follows.

Strength 19 (half-orc)
Dexterity 16
Constitution 17
Intelligence 11
Wisdom 16
Charisma 10.

Yes, he's a monster - while raging, his strength will be 23. However, I'm the only "veteran" player in the group, and the GM's not exactly an old salt either; I figure I'll be running around saving the other PCs butts on a regular basis. (After all, a surprisingly large amount of problems can be solved through the judicious use of Power Attack.)

I was wondering, though, if anyone would reccomend assorted feats, builds, and whatever for this character. He's got a high dexterity, so two-weapon fighting might be possible, but I'm thinking that a two-handed weapon would let him get the most out of his absurdly high strength.

So far, I've picked Power Attack for my 1st level feat. The GM is looking to stay with reasonably normal feats (PHB + anything reasonably non-insane), and I'd like to go for the maximum damage possible.

Any suggestions, anyone?

[Emperor Tippy]

During character creation, I rolled 2 17's and 2 16's. My stats go as follows.

Thats nice.

Strength 19 (half-orc)
Dexterity 16
Constitution 17
Intelligence 11
Wisdom 16
Charisma 10.

Half-Orc is one of the worst base races, statically speaking.

Yes, he's a monster - while raging, his strength will be 23.

Meh. Fighter types lose in D&D.

However, I'm the only "veteran" player in the group, and the GM's not exactly an old salt either; I figure I'll be running around saving the other PCs butts on a regular basis.

Then why are you playing a fighter type? Play a wizard and metagame you power level. If the players turn out to be good you can play at the same power level as teh rest of the party and if the other players don't learn that quickly you can save their buts without actually killing the monsters.

(After all, a surprisingly large amount of problems can be solved through the judicious use of Power Attack.)

And more can be solved through judicious use of a spellbook.

I was wondering, though, if anyone would reccomend assorted feats, builds, and whatever for this character.

Change to a caster.

He's got a high dexterity, so two-weapon fighting might be possible, but I'm thinking that a two-handed weapon would let him get the most out of his absurdly high strength.

See above.

So far, I've picked Power Attack for my 1st level feat. The GM is looking to stay with reasonably normal feats (PHB + anything reasonably non-insane), and I'd like to go for the maximum damage possible.

Again, see above and play a battle field controller

Any suggestions, anyone?

Read the rest of my post.

And you should tell us what the starting level is and what books are allowed if you really decided that you want a fighter type build.

[Zincorium]

Sigh. Tippy, we all know, but you could have shortened your entire post to "I think your character sucks." and it would have had the same message.

Orc is a somewhat better choice for a damage dealer, but a half orc does have an edge in melee combat over most characters despite the lack of mostly minor abilities that round out the other races.

Anyway, since you specified 'non-insane' for what would be allowed, Frenzied Berserker from complete warrior is automatically out. Offensively, it's a monster with the right feat/tactic combos, and you will at some point unwillingly kill your fellow PCs.

Feats to check out: Combat Brute and Shock trooper from the tactical feats section of Complete warrior, and Leap attack from Complete Adventurer. Good stuff if you can get the hang of how to use it.

Exotic weapon master's uncanny blow ability is definitely also worth looking into, it's not a bad boost to damage over a regular two handed weapon once you start getting up in str, which you seem to be going towards. Other than that, Brb 20 isn't all that bad, maybe dip out for 2 or 4 levels of fighter for some bonus feats.

[Bosh]

I'd STRONGLY recommend not cheesing your character out (nothing would suck more for a newbie than to have a veteran constantly overshadow them). I would recommend playing a class that based on buffing other people so that the newbies can have all of the lime light (like be a cleric and don't do all of the cheesy cleric self-buff stuff) and RP the "wise mentor"/Yoda type who helps the newbies do stuff themselves instead of doing stuff for them.

But if you want to cheese your character out take power attack/leap attack and shock trooper. You'll get one hit kills left and right. Also fighter 2/half-orc paragon 3 would be a good base to build from.

Emperor Tippy: Casters aren't overpowered in the hands of people who don't know D&D tactics. In my current campaign my half-orc is about on par with the wizard and the sorcerer (and does better a lot of the time) despite me taking feats like Skill Focus and avoiding feats like Shock Trooper because they don't use their spells in the most effective manner possible. Same goes for clerics that often don't end up being especially powerful characters because they heal in combat instead of buffing themselves into killing machines.

[Necomancer]

Just use a two handed weapon and you got it. Barbarian bashers are pretty simple. There are some power attack improving feats, but to me they're on my list of non-reasonables. Like leap attack. I had that sprung on me as a newbie DM and I still regret it.

Though there is one thing you can do. Use a falchion and improved crit. Every crit you make will do +4 damage for ever -1 to BAB with power attack.

Honestly I wouldn't twink this char out too badly, as said before you do not want to overshadow the newbies too much, and its very hard on a DM when he has to compensate for one powerful player. Stick to sane powered. Make sure to not be the one carrying the party. *Nothing* is more annoying to everyone else then one player handling all the battles and nothing is more annoying to a DM then having every battle he tries be reduced to two rounds at most.

[Everyman]

I'll third the appeal to not overly "cheese" your character. I've noticed that new players get annoyed or disheartened when their character pales in the presence of a more experience player. It's just a tad sad.

To prevent this, yet take advantage of your most excellent rolls, I'd pick up TWF and save Power Attack for later. Your STR score means that you can really have fun with the feat chain, even if your off-hand weapon isn't light (though I'd recommend it). Perhaps a handaxe and battleaxe combo (not optimized, but very imposing).

Power Attack is something I wouldn't pick up till at least 3rd level. You'll just be hitting often enough at low levels, and your damage will be considerable. By 3rd level, everyone should have the capability to unleash some sort of doom, so the extra damage PA provides is a nice boon. Besides, you want to have some BAB to spare to use with that precious feat.

Oh, and one last note...if your party lacks a "outdoor" character, consider putting at least a few ranks in Survival. Not only can you hunt and find shelter outdoors, but you open up the possibility of the Track feat. Again, not optimized, but nice.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'd STRONGLY recommend not cheesing your character out (nothing would suck more for a newbie than to have a veteran constantly overshadow them).

Agreed to an extent. IF you will have to look out for the rest of the party you will have to be "overpowered" but that does not mean that you have to win every fight in 2 rounds.

I would recommend playing a class that based on buffing other people so that the newbies can have all of the lime light (like be a cleric and don't do all of the cheesy cleric self-buff stuff) and RP the "wise mentor"/Yoda type who helps the newbies do stuff themselves instead of doing stuff for them.

Same idea I was going for only I recommended wizard because it is mroe versatile than a cleric and you may have to make up for another class that can't perform.

But if you want to cheese your character out take power attack/leap attack and shock trooper. You'll get one hit kills left and right. Also fighter 2/half-orc paragon 3 would be a good base to build from.

Agreed here.

Emperor Tippy: Casters aren't overpowered in the hands of people who don't know D&D tactics.

I never said that they were. I assumed taht the origional poster could overpower one if he wanted.

In my current campaign my half-orc is about on par with the wizard and the sorcerer (and does better a lot of the time) despite me taking feats like Skill Focus and avoiding feats like Shock Trooper because they don't use their spells in the most effective manner possible.

That has no barring on this thread. The OP's stated goal was to make a character overpowered enough that if necessary he could cover for the party. A fighter type is most assuredly not the way to accomplish that goal.

Same goes for clerics that often don't end up being especially powerful characters because they heal in combat instead of buffing themselves into killing machines.

Agreed.

[The_Werebear]

I would just keep it fairly simple. Grab a greatweapon of your choice, power attack, and break stuff's head.

Personally, I would just stick with Power attack, or even better, go into spiked chain usage for disarming and tripping. This has the benefit of being a lifesaver(enemy about to drop you, when they suddenly fall over) without being too hideous. Maybe start as human or do your first level as fighter for the extra feats.

Also, Tippy, there may be other reasons he isn't doing a wizard. Like, a new person in the party wants to be the caster and he is obliging them

[illyrus]

I'd also make sure you had some way of handling larger creatures for later on, such as spring attack or tumble(can't use while raging) for avoiding AOOs. I'd also recommend improved grapple for the same reason.

Very annoying to get grappled in round 1 by the large troll and never get out. Normally freedom of movement or polymorph could get around this, but if your party is made up of newer players, you might not be able to count on that kind of support.

I'd also add some non-magical armor spikes to your armor and some spiked gauntlets. Never know when you might need an extra light weapon.

Also if you're going the power attack route you may want to choose a 1 handed weapon instead of a 2 handed weapon. You can still effectively 2 hand most 1 handed weapons or switch it out and use sword and shield style for added versatility. Little lower damage for a few more options with an inexperienced party.

[Munchy]

Id have to side with those that recommend a change from barbarian to some other class. As a well built tank with an experienced player in control you will take a disproportionate amount of the kills and the glory. Furthermore it allows you to kill enemies faster but gives you no flexibility to save fellow PCs should something else happen.

My suggestion is that you make a melee cleric with those stats. You can transition from combat to support as needed and effectively control the situation without overshadowing the PCs. You will know better than them when to attack, when to buff/debuff and when to heal. Let someone else be the damage dealing tank.

[Falrin]

As noted, a Barbarian isn't the best support character. Yes you could power attack for a nice amount fo damage, but when raging your dieing friends won't get to much help.

I'd switch to :

Cleric: With your stats you can be the Tank and Buff/Heal your party. They'll love that. Take Travel & Luck. Dimension door out of trouble while rerolling that fatal 1.

Bard: Why not? The stats get you through the MAD. Grab yourself a few fighter LvLs if you wnat to be in the front.

Any Caster: As noted casters are the best toolboxes around, but I'd go with a decent tank. Whit a good build you can take some hits, a newbie might die when you're not taking the heat. On the other hand, that first timer playing a wizard isn't gone pull off the best tricks, but do we really think this is a problem? You know, poor underpowerd wizard can't pull of every trick int he book, the poor guy might be the weakest link?


In short: Barbarian isn't a good choice. You'll be dealing the damage, newbies like to do this. When raging you won't be able to help out, newbies need this. When at higher LvLs you start falling behind, hope the newbie wizard gets the hang of it by then.

[AtomicKitKat]

If memory serves, the scythe became a martial weapon in transition to 3.5, so you could look into that. Decent multiplier, so if you were concentrating your attacks on a single target, and you got lucky, you could save the party's butt, but it will also look terrible when the multiplication starts being counted. On the other hand, the Greatsword will let you consistently critical, which allows your party members to be able to count on you killing the enemy at the last second(say if the initiative was you/enemy/them), without giving too big of a multiplier.

[illyrus]

Ah, also thought of something else. You may want to grab a halberd instead for trip attacks and being able to set it against a charge. A spiked chain would be better at tripping with its reach, but if you don't want to use the feat a halberd is a decent alternative.

[AaronH]

Fighter types with polearms are very usefull indeed. Polearms FTW.

You have your weapon and your 10ft pole all in one..... sorta

[Spasticteapot]

Well, I'm back! (Finally out of school.)

While it's hard to argue with spellcasters' insane power, they're pretty useless at lower levels - a few Magic Missles just can't compare to a greataxe through the forehead.

However, it looks like I'm going to be a caster anywho - and it's nice to know that, if the game ever gets far enough, I can start slinging some major mojo.

However, I've also been thinking: Perhaps this is the time to try my mildly munchied Monk/Barbarian combo?

By taking a single level of Monk (for the AC bonus and unarmed combat) and switching to Barbarian, it's possible to make a character that, while unarmed, can deal a reasonable amount of damage just by punching things.

However, add Vow of Poverty, and you have a real monster: His AC goes down, he gets extra feats (including a very nifty one that deals strength damage from unarmed combat), and since he does'nt use any armor or weapons anyway, he's largely unhindered.

But yeah....maybe I should go for a sorcerer.

[nothingclever]

Thats nice.

Half-Orc is one of the worst base races, statically speaking.

Meh. Fighter types lose in D&D.

Then why are you playing a fighter type? Play a wizard and metagame you power level. If the players turn out to be good you can play at the same power level as teh rest of the party and if the other players don't learn that quickly you can save their buts without actually killing the monsters.

And more can be solved through judicious use of a spellbook.

Change to a caster.

See above.

Again, see above and play a battle field controller

Read the rest of my post.

And you should tell us what the starting level is and what books are allowed if you really decided that you want a fighter type build.

Pretty lame how you had to pratically refer to each individual thing he said with "you suck."

Redundant.

[Necomancer]

Well, I'm back! (Finally out of school.)

While it's hard to argue with spellcasters' insane power, they're pretty useless at lower levels - a few Magic Missles just can't compare to a greataxe through the forehead.

However, it looks like I'm going to be a caster anywho - and it's nice to know that, if the game ever gets far enough, I can start slinging some major mojo.

However, I've also been thinking: Perhaps this is the time to try my mildly munchied Monk/Barbarian combo?

By taking a single level of Monk (for the AC bonus and unarmed combat) and switching to Barbarian, it's possible to make a character that, while unarmed, can deal a reasonable amount of damage just by punching things.

However, add Vow of Poverty, and you have a real monster: His AC goes down, he gets extra feats (including a very nifty one that deals strength damage from unarmed combat), and since he does'nt use any armor or weapons anyway, he's largely unhindered.

But yeah....maybe I should go for a sorcerer.

If its a campaign with any newbies do *not* power game. Also yes, that is a munchkin build. Then again I consider any build with vow of poverty on a monk or druid to be a munchkin build. I'd sugest going for more helpful group spells then one hit kills and damage.

[Matthew]

If you are open to a Base Class change, then maybe you should just play a Cleric.

[Chris_Chandler]

Barbie for support - interesting concept, and something that could work, if you willfully make some choices where you put your other players first.

There are a few feats that will keep you pretty useful while not just taking over. If you switch up Wis and Cha, you can pick up Goad to basically keep the rest of your group a bit more free. Taking a trip weapon like a guisarme would be good - again, you are slowing down the battlefield, but you aren't actually doing the whacking - if you switch Con and Int, you pick up Combat expertise and Imp. trip for control. If you don't want to go smart, then the polearm will keep you working, and you can pick up Combat reflexes and improved init, for a similar effect.

I mean the point here is to let the "kids" shine, while you keep them alive through player experience. You don't need to play a one smack charger any more than you need to play a cleric.

[Pegasos989]

If its a campaign with any newbies do *not* power game. Also yes, that is a munchkin build. Then again I consider any build with vow of poverty on a monk or druid to be a munchkin build. I'd sugest going for more helpful group spells then one hit kills and damage.

Well, seeing that
a) Munchkin means breaking the rules to your advantage
b) Vow of poverty cripples any character if WBL guidelines apply
...nope.

But I am confident that it is a try to powergame and build "uberkiller", which is really what you shouldn't be doing with a group of newbies who you should support - not outshine.

[Deathcow]

Half-Orc is one of the worst base races, statically speaking.

Not for a barbarian. Barbarians don't need to do much besides hit things really hard, which is essentially what half-orcs are for.

Play a wizard with Vow of Poverty and the Illiterate flaw. Just to make sure that you really don't overshadow the newbies

Or you could play a gish build- a little caster stuff thrown in to make a better melee-er. Duskblade, Eldritch Knight, and Enlightened Fist (monk gish) come recommended. Actually, Duskblade would be a good choice if you want to play an effective character but don't want to overshadow the rest of your party. They're actually fairly balanced, as casterish classes go.

[ExHunterEmerald]

You can't have fun in D&D unless you're playing a caster.

Jaheesus Christ on a bike, man. He asked for advice, not the middle finger.

Alright, for barb...
Well, scythes make for some delicious critical hits, especially if you're ready to burn a feat. Decent damage, too. I would burn a couple feats to get through weapon specialization, too-the extra chance to hit and the extra damage on all hits does make a difference.
There's a PHB2 feat that lets you double (or triple if already doubled)
your power attack when you charge. Has a prereq of...what was it, four? Ranks in jump. Leaping attack, I think it was. That'll help quite nicely.

[Emperor Tippy]

Jaheesus Christ on a bike, man. He asked for advice, not the middle finger.

Do not fake quotes. I never once said what you quoted.

The OP's original question was how to make a character that could essentially solo everything so that if the new players were terrible he could keep everyone alive. I said that going Half-Orc barbarian was an incredibly stupid way to accomplish that goal.

He is much better off as a battle field control wizard for the simple reason that he never actually kills anything. The new players get the credit and he can keep everyone alive and save the day if he really has to. If the players turn out to be good he can stay back and pick different skills and still contribute without overshadowing anyone.

[ExHunterEmerald]

Do not fake quotes. I never once said what you quoted.

The OP's original question was how to make a character that could essentially solo everything so that if the new players were terrible he could keep everyone alive. I said that going Half-Orc barbarian was an incredibly stupid way to accomplish that goal.

He is much better off as a battle field control wizard for the simple reason that he never actually kills anything. The new players get the credit and he can keep everyone alive and save the day if he really has to. If the players turn out to be good he can stay back and pick different skills and still contribute without overshadowing anyone.

If you're worried people are going to believe you said that, tell me, and I'll just delete it. But it was satire, because that's exactly how it came across.

The OP was also asking for tips on making an effective barbarian--he didn't ask about how to keep everyone alive, just that he saw barbarian as a good way to go about that, and thus asking for advice on it.

As for letting the new players take credit, well, that's fine and dandy, but that doesn't really have a bearing on keeping them vertical.

I'll try and stop myself here, because even if neither party's interested in one, flamewars start this way. Plus, it might get the topic locked and Spastic might not get advice.

Sorry if I offended you.

[Emperor Tippy]

If you're worried people are going to believe you said that, tell me, and I'll just delete it. But it was satire, because that's exactly how it came across.

I'm not worried that people are going to believe it. You just should not fake quotes. It is bad manners and can lead to numerous problems. It is also a blatant lie.

The OP was also asking for tips on making an effective barbarian--he didn't ask about how to keep everyone alive, just that he saw barbarian as a good way to go about that, and thus asking for advice on it.

From the OP:

However, I'm the only "veteran" player in the group, and the GM's not exactly an old salt either; I figure I'll be running around saving the other PCs butts on a regular basis. (After all, a surprisingly large amount of problems can be solved through the judicious use of Power Attack.)

He believes that he will be saving the other players often. A Barbarian can kill everything else quickly but first off, he can't save the other PC's except by killing everything quickly (which could turn the new players off to the game). It was my recommendation that to accomplish this goal it is best to use a wizard and not a barbarian for numerous reasons which I have laid out in this thread.

As for letting the new players take credit, well, that's fine and dandy, but that doesn't really have a bearing on keeping them vertical.

You could be the most sod awful player in existence and after about level 7 I could keep you "vertical" on my own if I was a wizard. A druid and Cleric also can do this acceptably but a wizard is better at it. Not to mention that while I keep you vertical, you would still be getting most of the kills and glory. A Barbarian keeping you alive would do it by killing everything quickly on his own and you would feel left out.

I'll try and stop myself here, because even if neither party's interested in one, flamewars start this way. Plus, it might get the topic locked and Spastic might not get advice.

Spastic has already gotten his advice. Both on why he shouldn't play a barbarian and on how to make a barbarian that does what he wants. And short of you faking a quote I'm not even mildly annoyed at you.

Sorry if I offended you.

You haven't.

[Spasticteapot]

The OP's original question was how to make a character that could essentially solo everything so that if the new players were terrible he could keep everyone alive. I said that going Half-Orc barbarian was an incredibly stupid way to accomplish that goal.

He is much better off as a battle field control wizard for the simple reason that he never actually kills anything. The new players get the credit and he can keep everyone alive and save the day if he really has to. If the players turn out to be good he can stay back and pick different skills and still contribute without overshadowing anyone.

Just a little problem with this suggestion: We're starting at Level 1. A level 1 sorcerer cannot control much of anything, let alone a battlefield. A few Magic Missle, maybe a Sleep spell - that's just not going to do much.

Instead,, I've created a PC that can attack four times a round at 5th level - twice due to normal attacks, once from Flurry of Blows, and once from two-weapon style treating his fists as light weapons. Sure, all the attacks are at -4, but the Monk rules state that I'll be dealing my full strength bonus on each attack, for a grand total of four attacks at 1d6+8. (assuming I have a strength of 22 with an additional +4 from raging.)


Admittedly, my loco Monk/Barbarian combo is, yes, a little munchkiny. From what I have seen, however, the other PCs are mini-maxing despite being newbies, and like all mini-maxed characters, they're going to end up screwed and need someone to bail them out of combat.

Furthermore, I've already seen how the other PCs are acting - they're mostly playing chaotic PCs who will make a mess of the GM's adventures by, say, taking the princess they rescue as a hostage. The GM is not super-experienced, and I don't want him to deal with the headaches that will doubtlessly ensue.

As a result, I'm playing a PC that falls into the category of "good guy". He donates all of his loot to charities, has no weapons on his person, and believes doing the right thing - he's essentially a Paladin without the stick-up-the-arse lawful restrictions. If the party starts to act snarky, he's quite capable of making them stop.

Finally, I know full well that at some point my PC is going to get eaten. When this occurs, I'll start a new PC, likely of one level lower - and he will be a sorcerer.

[Spasticteapot]

After digging through the rules, it seems that to take VoP at 1st level, I need to be a human. (Dangit!) While being a half-orc is all very convenient, I would need to wait until 3rd level for my second feat, limiting me to Sacred Vow - perhaps one of the least useful feats in the game - until that point. Furthermore, I lose the bonus Exhalted feats at 1st and 2nd level - and two feats make up for the loss of two points of strength easily enough.

So, here's my intended level progression:

Level 1: Monk (improved grapple, improved unarmed strike as bonus feats.)
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty (Touch of golden ice as bonus feat.)
Level 2: Barbarian. (Righteous Wrath as bonus feat.)
Level 3: Barbarian. Two-weapon fighting as feat.
Level 4: Barbarian. +1 strength. (What exhalted feat should I take - perhaps Nymph's Kiss?)
Level 5: Barbarian.
Level 6: Frostrager. I get a bonus Exhalted feat, and a normal feat at this level. Which do I choose?

What feats should I take? Suggestions?

[Skyserpent]

Vow of Poverty may give you some trouble.

What if you need to FLY?

oh right... Wizard buddies...

Hm... From what I can tell, go for it.

[Jack Mann]

Actually, a first level wizard is still fairly effective. You're correct that magic missile won't help much, but magic missile isn't a very good spell. A much better spell to be using is grease. Or try sleep. Those can help end an encounter much quicker.

If you must go monk, don't go Vow of Poverty. It's not a good feat. It looks nice on paper, but you'll be more powerful with the magical gear you would normally have, level by level.

[Chris_Chandler]

VoP really depends on if the DM pays attention to the Wealth by Level guidelines. If the DM totes the line with wealth, the VoP is balanced to underpowered. If the DM slacks on treasure, VoP gets incredibly good.

A monk dip into barbie, though, that is pretty munchy. You're going Frost Rager, so pick up Earth's Embrace to give even more damage to your pins during a grapple. Vow of Obedience would be nice for the compulsion protection.

Of course, at this point, I'm having trouble seeing past the contrivance - Is this build still aiming toward your goal of letting the other party members shine? Likewise, while this is a mechanics-minded thread, the RP considerations are a bit far-fetched to me.